There is a significant fact that is not being discussed, at all, quite frankly... as it applies to the Iran nuclear deal.
Most of you may have heard by now that Trump made decisive comments about eliminating the Iran nuclear deal. In two-3 sentences, he essentially stated:
1 - The US will immediately pull out of the Iran nuclear deal. 2 - The US will, effective immediately, impose all possible, and the most harsh economic sanctions on Iran. 3 - Anyone who continues to do business with Iran may face their own sanctions from the United States
You may have heard that most of the Western Europe's leaders have denounced this action by president Trump.
However, I'd like to interject (for your consideration and thoughts on this) that Western Europe gets the majority of their oil... primarily from Iran first, then Saudi Arabia, and then Russia third. So, to impose sanctions on Iran, and for Western Europe to abide by it, means that they would no longer be able to purchase oil from Iran. This would significantly increase the cost of oil and energy to Western Europe, which would have an immediate impact on their economies.
So... while Western European leaders might state they believe the Iran deal was a good thing, what they're really saying is that they dislike the effect these sanctions will have on their economy.
Have to say though... I am loving Trump's confident, no-bull **** decision making. I mean, you don't get any more tough than that. Damn...
Burning my flag n chanting death to my country? Id be f#cking w u too! get em trump! **** my iranian buddy hates what theyre doing n loves what trumps doing lol F#ck iran shem
Have to say though... I am loving Trump's confident, no-bull **** decision making. I mean, you don't get any more tough than that. Damn...
I want to believe this, but all we have to do is look back, not to long ago how he dealt with the Democrats over a budget. So much for being a tough bargaining leader. He gave them everything.
I never understood why we feel, and Europe also, have to pander to these sick dictators and their outrageous behavior.
The circumstance is similar to someone, say a parent and child, acting out at the supermarket. Everyone stands around and watches, and even though they know the behavior is wrong, no one is willing to intervene. They all fear being the first to say such, until someone speaks up.
Why is it necessary to negotiate when someone is overtly threatening you? The dialogue should be, "Stop it or Else!" And, the latter is a something they need to carefully consider. Iran is hardly a threat to any nation, certainly posturing aggressively toward America will get you a good thrashing.
I want to believe this, but all we have to do is look back, not to long ago how he dealt with the Democrats over a budget. So much for being a tough bargaining leader. He gave them everything.
He wasn't a player in the negotiations, that was the job of the Congress. He signed it for the reasons he stated at the time, and has been able to get some of it negated.
In short, the U.S. received absolutely no benefit from the deal and Iran did not hold up their end of the bargain. They did not allow unfettered access to their facilities for inspection.
The deal, in a nutshell was “Give us money and we will not try to kill you this week”. That is nothing more than a protection racket. Besides which, they continued to be very vocal about their intention to kill us soon.
With the UN guaranteeing every nations border, nuclear weapons are obsolete. They are also expensive, but what is more common is the funding of terror organizations, infiltration, internet warfare, and all these small, hard to trace covert military actions.
Russia and China are writing the book on this new warfare, and I am sure North Korea and Iran are reading that book.
So, within the agreement and unleashing all that cash for Iran did not stop them from their subversive activities, since nuclear warfare as mentioned isn't what it use to be and is so expensive, but it only freed them up to explore other channels of disruption in the middle east.
What appears to be working is confrontation, and it is similar to have a pesky fly biting at the lion. You eventually have to swat that fly otherwise it will never stop.
Noticed Israel sent a message to Iran, hitting one of their bases in Syria soon after the withdraw from that agreement was mentioned.
In short, the U.S. received absolutely no benefit from the deal and Iran did not hold up their end of the bargain. They did not allow unfettered access to their facilities for inspection.
The deal, in a nutshell was “Give us money and we will not try to kill you this week”. That is nothing more than a protection racket. Besides which, they continued to be very vocal about their intention to kill us soon.
Do you have a source on this? Every source I have found(with the except of Trump himself) has said that Iran was holding up their end of the bargain.
Do you have a source on this? Every source I have found(with the except of Trump himself) has said that Iran was holding up their end of the bargain.
Because not every source is reputable. That is the issue with today's "facts" being presented to people that are unlearned.
Iran lied. Big time. This morning they are once again burning the American Flag in their congress halls.
Imagine if you and I had a deal to always be polite to each other for the good of the forum. Then, one day I began writing little things against you. That is called breaking an agreement.
FYI, NKPR will also try an end around. They always do.
My opinion is that the "deal" was dead before the ink dried. Because the deal never allowed inspections of any site capable of nuclear weapons testing or production. The only sites that could be inspected were the ones that Iran agreed to. So, a reasonable person could say that Iran is just going to continue development at sites that are safe from inspection. It was a bad deal from square one. Then of course, Iran did not keep their end of the deal anyway. Because they did not have to, there was no punishment for not complying with inspections.
Good for my guy Trump. It was a bad deal because it unfroze all of Irans assets in the US, gave them literally a planeload of cash and lifted almost all restrictions. Their part of the deal was to not do anything with nuclear research until after 2020 (I believe) and grant international inspectors unrestricted assess to check on all sites that may do or have any nuclear research to be sure they complied. Iran agreed with those except they wont allow inspectors into any military facility in the country. The US got NO benefits and Iran reneged on the agreement from the start. hows that ?
The way I heard it is other countries have 6 months to work out their own way to deal with Iran. It isnt like any of our allies like France, Germany or UK have to stop doing business today with them or else.
Now, address the real issue. Tell us what benefit the USA garnered from the deal.
These sources do not back up what you said. None of them point to any evidence that Iran was not holding up their end of the bargain. All they say is what could happen. What has happened in the past before the deal is not relevant because the government of Iran is significantly different(it is far more moderate now).
The only argument here is that they went over the amount of allowed heavy water(they were allowed 150 metric tons, they went over by a fraction of a ton). If we were able to catch that twice, how could they have a nuclear weapons program hiding? The deal was working.
As to what the US gets from the deal.. We get a lot actually. We get a nuclear free Iran(again, that without doubt was happening under the deal), and a more stable power in the middle east. However, that is the least important of our gains.
1. We get a more moderate government in Iran We don't want a radical government in charge, and the deal was INCREDIBLY unpopular with extremists in Iran. However, if the deal brings prosperity to Iran(which it was doing) the government will be forced to shift towards a more moderate form at the risk of a major backlash by the population. Now that the deal is gone, we are going to see a shift away from support for moderates in Iran because the population will not have faith that the moderate tactic of negotiating with the US actually works.
2. We get trust from other foreign powers. Especially after Gaddafi gave up his nuclear program in Libya, enemies of the United States have been convinced that the only way to remain stable is to have a nuclear weapon, otherwise the United States will destabilize the country. The Iran deal brought the trust that deals could be made with the US government that avoided direct confrontation. There is no reason for NK to make a deal now that we backed out of the deal with Iran. If Trump DOES make a deal with NK, the message it sends it that "we will only deal with you if you have a nuke", and that is really bad for regimes we do not trust.
In order for there to be a carrot and a stick, you need to actually have a carrot to offer.
These sources do not back up what you said. None of them point to any evidence that Iran was not holding up their end of the bargain. All they say is what could happen. What has happened in the past before the deal is not relevant because the government of Iran is significantly different(it is far more moderate now).
The sources show that there is no way to verify compliance. Without the ability to verify compliance, we cannot assume that they are in compliance. I do not trust the Iranians, apparently you do.
The only argument here is that they went over the amount of allowed heavy water(they were allowed 150 metric tons, they went over by a fraction of a ton). If we were able to catch that twice, how could they have a nuclear weapons program hiding? The deal was working.
From the partisan opinion piece to which you linked: "The prevailing view among foremost authorities is that Iran has complied with the deal." You already admitted that they were not in compliance, being in possession of a prohibited quantity of a regulated substance. Without verification, we must surmise that where there is smoke, there is most likely fire.
quote
As to what the US gets from the deal.. We get a lot actually. We get a nuclear free Iran(again, that without doubt was happening under the deal), and a more stable power in the middle east. However, that is the least important of our gains.
1. We get a more moderate government in Iran We don't want a radical government in charge, and the deal was INCREDIBLY unpopular with extremists in Iran. However, if the deal brings prosperity to Iran(which it was doing) the government will be forced to shift towards a more moderate form at the risk of a major backlash by the population. Now that the deal is gone, we are going to see a shift away from support for moderates in Iran because the population will not have faith that the moderate tactic of negotiating with the US actually works.
No reasonable person would characterize Iran's government as moderate.
quote
2. We get trust from other foreign powers. Especially after Gaddafi gave up his nuclear program in Libya, enemies of the United States have been convinced that the only way to remain stable is to have a nuclear weapon, otherwise the United States will destabilize the country. The Iran deal brought the trust that deals could be made with the US government that avoided direct confrontation. There is no reason for NK to make a deal now that we backed out of the deal with Iran. If Trump DOES make a deal with NK, the message it sends it that "we will only deal with you if you have a nuke", and that is really bad for regimes we do not trust.
In order for there to be a carrot and a stick, you need to actually have a carrot to offer.
We did not gain trust from foreign governments, instead we demonstrated our willingness to succumb to extortion. This is a sign of weakness. Trump gained China's respect by bombing Syria while serving dessert to Xi Jingping.
Just as in this thread, your woeful lack of comprehension regarding most issues and your inability to conduct simple research highlight your inadequacy as an educator.
This has nothing to do with the fact that you are a leftist, it has everything to do with the fact that you are ill informed.
Your students trust you and you do them a grave disservice.
These sources do not back up what you said. None of them point to any evidence that Iran was not holding up their end of the bargain. All they say is what could happen. What has happened in the past before the deal is not relevant because the government of Iran is significantly different(it is far more moderate now).
The only argument here is that they went over the amount of allowed heavy water(they were allowed 150 metric tons, they went over by a fraction of a ton). If we were able to catch that twice, how could they have a nuclear weapons program hiding? The deal was working.
As to what the US gets from the deal.. We get a lot actually. We get a nuclear free Iran(again, that without doubt was happening under the deal), and a more stable power in the middle east. However, that is the least important of our gains.
1. We get a more moderate government in Iran We don't want a radical government in charge, and the deal was INCREDIBLY unpopular with extremists in Iran. However, if the deal brings prosperity to Iran(which it was doing) the government will be forced to shift towards a more moderate form at the risk of a major backlash by the population. Now that the deal is gone, we are going to see a shift away from support for moderates in Iran because the population will not have faith that the moderate tactic of negotiating with the US actually works.
2. We get trust from other foreign powers. Especially after Gaddafi gave up his nuclear program in Libya, enemies of the United States have been convinced that the only way to remain stable is to have a nuclear weapon, otherwise the United States will destabilize the country. The Iran deal brought the trust that deals could be made with the US government that avoided direct confrontation. There is no reason for NK to make a deal now that we backed out of the deal with Iran. If Trump DOES make a deal with NK, the message it sends it that "we will only deal with you if you have a nuke", and that is really bad for regimes we do not trust.
In order for there to be a carrot and a stick, you need to actually have a carrot to offer.
From a Steely Dan song....
"The things you pass for knowledge, I just don't understand"......
We paid 14 billion dollars from the US Coffers as a bribe, if you will... which the previous administration said was their own money that was held up in sanctions (it was not).
It was paid in foreign currency to get around a law which stated that foreign governments couldn't be paid off... I guess the loophole was that it specified US currency.
In the end, Iran didn't abide (at all) by what they had promised, and continued to enrich uranium which was revealed in intel that was provided by Israel, which was confirmed by the UK, France, and the United States.
What has happened in the past before the deal is not relevant because the government of Iran is significantly different(it is far more moderate now).
In order for there to be a carrot and a stick, you need to actually have a carrot to offer.
You're a chuckle a minute kid. Do you write all of your own comedy material?
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran's supreme leader chastised President Donald Trump on Wednesday over his decision to pull America out of the 2015 nuclear deal, while lawmakers lit a paper U.S. flag on fire inside parliament, shouting, "Death to America!"
"The body of this man, Trump, will turn to ashes and become the food of the worms and ants, while the Islamic Republic continues to stand," Khamenei said.
You are a perfect example of why every time the left in this country tries to set foreign policy it inevitably turns into a disaster...EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
Hell even Theodore Roosevelt understood what the modern Marxist left has long since forgotten / abandoned when he said in a letter to Henry L. Sprague, on January 26th 1900, he wrote: "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
When your stick is big enough and the fear of your using it is real, you don't need to be handing out any damn carrots....or what rational people call APPEASMENT
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-09-2018).]
You're a chuckle a minute kid. Do you write all of your own comedy material?
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran's supreme leader chastised President Donald Trump on Wednesday over his decision to pull America out of the 2015 nuclear deal, while lawmakers lit a paper U.S. flag on fire inside parliament, shouting, "Death to America!"
"The body of this man, Trump, will turn to ashes and become the food of the worms and ants, while the Islamic Republic continues to stand," Khamenei said.
You are a perfect example of why every time the left in this country tries to set foreign policy it inevitably turns into a disaster...EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
Hell even Theodore Roosevelt understood what the modern Marxist left has long since forgotten / abandoned when he said in a letter to Henry L. Sprague, on January 26th 1900, he wrote: "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
When your stick is big enough and the fear of your using it is real, you don't need to be handing out any damn carrots....or what rational people call APPEASMENT
Woooah, I didn't even see 3Dog's quoted text there....
Woooah, I didn't even see 3Dog's quoted text there....
... damn. Talk about naïve...
I've said it a few times before on this forum but it bears repeating again here;
The sum total of his posts clearly demonstrate that he is a marginally educated young man.
Moreover, his relative youth and inexperience are vividly evident when he tries to lecture folks here that are much older, wiser, experienced and educated.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-09-2018).]
We get a lot actually. We get a nuclear free Iran(again, that without doubt was happening under the deal), and a more stable power in the middle east. However, that is the least important of our gains.
We get a nuclear free Iran (again, that without doubt was happening under the deal), and a more stable power in the middle east.
Oh man, you actually said this. I saw everyone else quoting it, but something in me just couldn't believe it, so I had to search for where you actually said it.
I want to put this nicely. I encourage you to do a little bit more research, and not allow your hatred of Trump to blind you.
