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They've given us a raise and nothing for students': Teacher walkout will not end by Threedog
Started on: 04-04-2018 02:53 PM
Replies: 123 (1964 views)
Last post by: randye on 05-15-2018 10:54 PM
Threedog
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Report this Post04-04-2018 02:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThreedogSend a Private Message to ThreedogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Link: http://www.tulsaworld.com/n...41-bcf9b98b53b9.html


Oklahoma Education Association listed three teacher demands that would end the walk out:
1. Fill the $50 Million created in Hotel/motel tax the Legislature repealed last week
2. Pass a bill that would bring revenue by allowing "ball and dice" gambling
3. Find additional revenue sources to increase funding for schools


OK has been ranked last in many categories in Education throughout the states. Yet still, they are cutting funding.


Increasing Public School funding increases upward mobility. But for some reason, we find that hard to do in some places..
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Report this Post04-04-2018 03:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

...


Increasing Public School funding increases upward mobility. But for some reason, we find that hard to do in some places..



Absolutely!

Our schools are severely underfunded. Our teachers are poorly trained. Corruption roils the institutions. Parents have no interest in what their kids are doing. I would love to see more children interested in school. More people in general would be fantastic. Educate the kids to facts. I am all for it.

Edit: I gave you a positive. Not for agreeing, but for being truthful. Just enjoy...

[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 04-04-2018).]

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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post04-04-2018 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

Link: http://www.tulsaworld.com/n...41-bcf9b98b53b9.html

Oklahoma Education Association listed three teacher demands that would end the walk out:
1. Fill the $50 Million created in Hotel/motel tax the Legislature repealed last week
2. Pass a bill that would bring revenue by allowing "ball and dice" gambling
3. Find additional revenue sources to increase funding for schools

OK has been ranked last in many categories in Education throughout the states. Yet still, they are cutting funding.


Increasing Public School funding increases upward mobility. But for some reason, we find that hard to do in some places..

You know ThreeDog, it sounds like all three demands seem to suggest the problems are everyone else's fault, and that somehow everything on their end is perfect.

What's changed? Has the number of students going to that school district DRAMATICALLY increased? For what it's worth, that does provide more funding through property taxes.

But I am curious at what point the school system itself decides they need to make adjustments?


Are all the teachers successful? In the private sector, you generally lose your job if you're not performing at an appropriate level. Coming from a family that had two people who worked for teachers unions (on the liberal side of my family), I know that teachers don't get fired unless they've done something illegal. The only other way they get fired is if the school district has to cut costs, and... this is an important aspect of the discussion, they ONLY cut the people who were most recently hired. The teachers with seniority are never touched.

What happens then is... the most paid, are essentially untouchable. We all get burnt out in our jobs as we age... but our experience is supposed to warrant higher pay, because we're expected to do our job BETTER... or at least know how to do it better.

But with the support of unions, many teachers who SHOULD be fired, are saved... kept... in the school system, and never face the music, and never end up getting fired. These are teachers who are paid VAST sums of money. In the NYC school district alone, there is a building of teachers who can never be fired (union rules), but that can also never teach again. They all make over $100k a year. There are HUNDREDS of them... amounting to many tens of millions of dollars in pay a year, that will never go back into the school, and essentially goes to nothing.

http://www.foxnews.com/stor...d-to-do-nothing.html


So, my belief, ThreeDog, is let's set up a performance plan for everyone in that school district. If teachers aren't meeting a certain level of performance, then they should be given a warning. If come the next review, they still aren't performing at a level that they should, then they should be fired. Let's free up some of that money and give it to the other teachers who need it.

Also... how much more money could the teachers have... if they weren't paying dues? Serious question.


Do you know where those dues went?


My cousin-in-law, who worked for United Teachers of Dade... here is a list of his benefits:

1 - 10% matching on his 401k. First year FULL deposit of first-year pay (meaning, they gave him about 60k in his 401k after his first year).
2 - Free dry cleaning
3 - Company car to drive and take home.
4 - Free cell phone
5 - Free internet service at home.
6 - Per-diem during work hours.
7 - 60k a year (not much, but he was only 26, and it was 2007).
8 - Pension, in addition to his 401k.
9 - PAID vacation during most of the non-school year. PAID double if you work the Summer for the county Summer school program.


The list goes on, I can't remember all of it. Ignore the fact that both United Teachers of Dade, and Broward Teacher's Union both had their founders arrested and charged, and raided by FBI... at separate times, and unrelated incidents.


But I think there's a lot that can be cut first, before asking for more money from the taxpayer. Serious.


EDIT: For the record, I am a strong supporter of public education, and I agree that upward mobility comes from a strong education. I also believe we need to bring back vocational programs in schools. Not everyone has to get a college degree. But I think the teachers themselves have become part of the problem. Funding, in most parts of the country, has ONLY increased above and beyond inflation. Yet... scores keep getting worse.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 04-04-2018).]

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ls3mach
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Report this Post04-04-2018 03:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ls3machSend a Private Message to ls3machEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Haven't read through all the post. I am dealing with this **** daily. It is a contract violation and the teachers need to be held in contempt. Spring break was the previous week. They damn sure weren't striking then. This week was supposed to be testing, specifically Juniors (I think ACT) they were in school yesterday for it. Teachers have told my freshman daughter propaganda such as if they don't take the federal test (the ones for funding) they can't pass on to the next grade. They had all summer to pitch a fit and in 2 months would have all summer again. Instead they are holding hostage the parents and students of poor families. I am certainly not against teachers getting a raise, but they signed a contract and KNEW what they were getting into. Especially all the BS first and second year ones I keep hearing interviewed. These "teachers" are showing our kids that if you don't uphold your word and throw a fit you can get your way. In my opinion it is another form of indoctrination. On top of that, my opinions on the matter from just glancing at them have me as a pariah. This really doesn't hurt our house like it does many. I own a company and Jenny stays at home anyway, but really is taking a toll on many for extra cost.

Virtually every business around is giving teachers free stuff too. I'm really opposed to them getting raises and support that, I think our governor sucks and I everyone always says she does, but keeps getting reelected. My mate's s/o is a teacher and this week she has gotten:
Free Mexican food. Free gas card. Free some kind of lunch. Free pizza last night. My buddy owns a liquor store and has a "famous marquee" and he is back all over the news with it. Another friend got a call from her district saying school was closed indefinitely.

My next biggest gripe is our district won't just say for how long. Our kid was making up TONS of work over spring break, I'd like to take us out of town instead of having her tell me she's bored after not waking up until 1PM.

Side note, they also got a raise the week before this whole walkout started. I don't think it was exactly what they wanted, but in my opinion the classy thing to have done would've been to accept it and hold schools hostage after summer break and keep everyone from attending the next semester

This was a little all over after looking at it. No intention of organizing it, take it with a grain of salt.
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Threedog
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Report this Post04-04-2018 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThreedogSend a Private Message to ThreedogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Are all the teachers successful? In the private sector, you generally lose your job if you're not performing at an appropriate level. Coming from a family that had two people who worked for teachers unions (on the liberal side of my family), I know that teachers don't get fired unless they've done something illegal. The only other way they get fired is if the school district has to cut costs, and... this is an important aspect of the discussion, they ONLY cut the people who were most recently hired. The teachers with seniority are never touched.

What happens then is... the most paid, are essentially untouchable. We all get burnt out in our jobs as we age... but our experience is supposed to warrant higher pay, because we're expected to do our job BETTER... or at least know how to do it better.

But with the support of unions, many teachers who SHOULD be fired, are saved... kept... in the school system, and never face the music, and never end up getting fired. These are teachers who are paid VAST sums of money. In the NYC school district alone, there is a building of teachers who can never be fired (union rules), but that can also never teach again. They all make over $100k a year. There are HUNDREDS of them... amounting to many tens of millions of dollars in pay a year, that will never go back into the school, and essentially goes to nothing.

I agree with this to some extent.

I think that pay scales are absolutely an issue, and I think that the Unions can hold on to bad teachers, absolutely. I have seen it happen. (I knew a teacher that told kids she got a 16 on the ACT and she turned out okay, she was also surprised to find out human beings and dinosaurs did not walk the earth at the same time, she took home about 70k). However I have also seen unions protect many good teachers, far more often than the bad.

How we evaluate teachers. How do we determine if they are "good" or "bad"? Results are absolutely not the only thing we can measure, as low income students never match the scores of high income students(so we can't measure proficiency), and if we measure growth, its high income teachers who get the shaft.

I teach in CO, and from bottom to top there is no time available in the day. Every minute of every day teachers have something to do. If I used my ENTIRE allotted planning time + 90 minutes after school, I have 32 seconds to look at each students work for the day to assess where they are. If I take another hour to plan for the three separate classes I have to teach, and another 30 minutes to call parents/answer emails/talk to a colleague about teaching strategies and methods, I have a 12 hour day(w/o lunch). Now, that is manageable as we have breaks(thats what they are for, right?). But here is the thing with accountability.

We also have these "data cycle" meetings where we measure our student's growth. That growth is directly tied to our evaluations. We are supposed to develop additional pre and post tests, compile the numbers, and report them to our admin. Our admin is supposed to check them, and send the numbers to the district. Then, the district reports to the state.

Here is the thing, they are all lies. The teachers do not have time to create these tests on top of the rest of the testing students have to do, let alone compile all of the data and report it. It doesn't matter, because there is not enough support on the admin team and they don't have time to make sure that all of the teachers reports are accurate. But that still doesn't matter, because the district does not have someone with enough time to hold the admin accountable. And it STILL doesn't matter because there is no one at the state level with enough time to actively hold the district accountable for the data.

From bottom to top, there is not enough staff or resources to have because we are so worried about waste. I agree that waste is a bad thing, but we are wasting way more by under funding the schools.

To create an interesting, challenging, and engaging lesson, I need time to do that. To evaluate where my students are at, I need time to do that. I need time to talk to colleagues and brain storm new ideas. I need time to talk to parents about their students performance.
I have four hours each week(of paid time) to evaluate the work 200 students produced over 5 days, talk to their parents, study their methods of learning, compensate for some disabilities, work with other teachers, learn new teaching methods, and plan lessons for them. That is just not enough time.

No teacher can have this schedule then be called "bad", its literally not possible to be "good" and have any personal life whatsoever.


You are correct in saying that if school were a business, it would have failed. The thing is, public education should not be treated like a business because it can't be. In the free market, businesses fail all the time, and that is perfectly okay. However, if a public school fails, it ****s up an entire section of the populations entire lives. And if we rely on school choice, all we see is that some schools stay bad if you're not lucky enough to get out.

The free market is a wizard in correcting what we don't need, and it is our best tool. However, public education needs to be a fair, equitable, and equal place for every child. If children don't have an equal(or at least close to equal) shot at life, then our society will never truly be a just society. The free market does not work with education because kids are not adults and should not be treated as such.

And if the school can't be a free market, then teachers have to have unions. It is the same thing with police/fire departments. If there is not a free market that drives up working conditions, Unions are the only thing that works.
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Report this Post04-04-2018 05:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

Unions are the only thing that works.


I was wondering when our larval Ellsworth Toohey would resurface.


 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:
The free market does not work with education because kids are not adults and should not be treated as such.


Except when you lefties want to use them to push for gun grabbing laws or other policy.

 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:
In the free market, businesses fail all the time, and that is perfectly okay.


Funny, you didn't say the same thing when it was "net neutrality". Then you wanted internet providers to be treated as a "public utility".

One thing about you leftists, you're consistently inconsistent.

 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:
The free market is a wizard in correcting what we don't need


NO, sonny. A free market determines what customers WANT and how much they will pay for it. Your Marxist "needs analysis" aside, a free market, conversely, will eliminate what customers don't want or that don't provide comparative value for the price demanded.

Your screed is a plea for more money for less work and less responsibility....Translation: *Less value for more money*

Only a government employee who is a member of a union makes that kind of a demand with a straight face.

Your obvious fundamental lack of understanding of this key point exposes your naiveté' and your continuing belief in failed Marxist ideology.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-04-2018).]

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Report this Post04-04-2018 06:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have no idea of the specifics of those states where teachers are striking. But, I do have knowledge of the state I live in, Michigan. It doesn't matter how much you give to the schools most of the money will go to fund more administration, not direct teachers. If anything needs to be done it is to remove/downsize the large staff of non-teaching people on the school payrolls. Then maybe we could afford to pay the actual teachers more money. I think this is endemic across this nation.

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Report this Post04-04-2018 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

How we evaluate teachers. How do we determine if they are "good" or "bad"? Results are absolutely not the only thing we can measure, as low income students never match the scores of high income students(so we can't measure proficiency), and if we measure growth, its high income teachers who get the shaft.


Roger, totally understand. Teachers can't make the kids do better, that's the parents responsibility. Totally understand... and also, we don't want teachers dumbing things down because then it only hurts everyone else.

There are ways that you can set up metrics for the teachers to ensure they meet certain criteria... IE: minimum standards. As with any job... you get an annual or sometimes twice-yearly performance review. You have a SET minimum that you have to accomplish to be considered "Successful." Don't meet these, and you're Unsuccessful. Exceed these, and you're Excellent. Most places I've worked use a ranking of 1 to 5, with 5 being the best.

Performance of students doesn't have to be a major factor, it can be one... and it can be graded on a normalization curve for that grade and class-type. They should know year after year how kids are doing in that class (regardless of students). If it starts to get worse, then perhaps that becomes a factor with a weight of 20% of your overall score. Maybe you're graded on everything from parent-teacher engagement, to your ability to cover topics throughout the year, to any number of different factors. Honestly, the union should be coming up with this, for all they get paid (to basically do nothing).


 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

From bottom to top, there is not enough staff or resources to have because we are so worried about waste. I agree that waste is a bad thing, but we are wasting way more by under funding the schools.

And if the school can't be a free market, then teachers have to have unions. It is the same thing with police/fire departments. If there is not a free market that drives up working conditions, Unions are the only thing that works.



Funding...

We spend more per student in the United States (on average) than any other country in the world, and yet are ranked so incredibly low...

From CBS: https://www.cbsnews.com/new...al-list-study-shows/

I've always questioned these figures, and while I don't know exactly where it comes from, I kind of assume most countries aren't being as honest... but I probably just have to accept that it's true. We spend more, and get less.


Because it's WHAT we spend it on.


The ONLY reason why a Teacher needs a "union" is to protect them against claims from students... (harassment, sexual misconduct, etc...) because in the teaching world, it's guilty until proven innocent, but that's it.

We DO have a free market for schools. I wouldn't hesitate to say that MANY of the teachers who have tenure, suck... and many of the good teachers who are motivated and want to do well, end up getting cut first, and go private where they make more money, if not simply for the fact that they don't have to pay teacher's dues... and there aren't a bunch of old farts sucking all the pay from the other teachers.

The money is there to pay teachers, the problem is that so much of it goes to union dues and do-nothing teachers with tenure. People don't realize it... but when you're a Federal or State employee... you aren't really a taxpayer. The tax you pay just slightly reduces your burden on the fiscal budget... but you are still a NET negative to the financials of the state. The taxpayers (property owners in this case) are still footing the bill, and if they're not getting what they expect, they go private. This is why so many states are going to vouchers and charter schools... because they aren't burdened by unions.

This is an age-old argument, about unions... I don't hate them, and I think they're pretty important, especially for trades so they can collectively fight back against decisions that state chooses to impose that may cause undue expenses to someone in a particular vocation, etc.

But people have to realize that teachers unions are NOT... I repeat, NOT a "not for profit" organization. They MAKE money. People always think the teachers unions are all about making things better. Here's the priority list of EVERY teacher's union in the United States (in order of their priority):

1 - Profit for the Union
2 - Union Employees
3 - Teachers who are Union Members
4 - Students


Realize that the entire point of school is to teach kids... yet the teacher's union holds the school system HOSTAGE, and the #1 goal of the taxpayer, is DEAD LAST in the priority list of the organization that controls the schools.
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Report this Post04-04-2018 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hammerSend a Private Message to hammerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Right around here teachers with five years experience or more make high five figure salaries for working nine months per year, with PLENTY of time off for spring break, christmas break, holidays, snow days, etc......Funny but I'm just not feeling their pain......
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Report this Post04-04-2018 10:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Doug85GTSend a Private Message to Doug85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The teachers would not like my solution. Eliminate public schools. Have the government give out education vouchers to parents. Parents would then choose where they want their kids to go. Let the good schools and teachers thrive and the bad ones fail.
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Report this Post04-04-2018 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
.

[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 09-08-2018).]

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Report this Post04-04-2018 11:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I "demand" that teachers do their job.

I also believe that they should be held to a higher standard. Sadly, many of those grading papers are too political to be unbiased, even towards children.

Look at any inner city school district, and you will see years of corruption played out in the papers and courts. Decades of public school funds taken. Again and again. The definition of insanity. Makes me sick.

.

Edit: Hank often makes sense.

[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 04-05-2018).]

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Report this Post04-05-2018 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Hank is HereSend a Private Message to Hank is HereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I look at this from a little different angle.

Were the schools in this country ever good or great? IF so when? From there we need to compare what is different now versus then. What are we donig that doesn't work and why?

Then we need to compare budgets from that poin in time versus now. I am not saying to cut or reallocate funds but understand the overall expense breakdown of spending then versus now. To me, somehow, shools are burdening themeselves with large fixed costs even before getting to pay wages and supplies. Where is the structural void in the spending which is sucking all the funds from the class rooms themselves?
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Report this Post04-05-2018 01:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gary WSend a Private Message to Gary WEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Schools were good when parents sent them there to learn, and were involved in the process. Also, the teachers were there to teach a subject, not to raise (and indoctrinate) children. I don't mean some particular political direction, though I'm sure it happens, but they're left with teaching them to be functioning human beings, not just how to do math. Yet, they can't do anything about bad behavior and the kids know it. If I had a note sent home when I was a kid that I was acting up at school, I wouldn't be sitting for a week.

As much as I hate Hillary, the "village" it used to take to raise a child is dead. Lots of broken families. They can't play outside (kidnappers!), can't get in trouble (and learn from it) in a non-criminal way, for the most part don't go to church (think what you like of religion, but it was a pretty good example of how to behave). There's no neighborhood, it's all digital. Kids don't get their asses kicked anymore, they hide online. Kids who get picked on don't have any way to combat it, and you get shootings.

The parents are entitled and want teachers to raise their kids, yet won't give them the tools and won't participate. Johnny got bad grades? Call the school and complain. Johnny can't get into a good college without a high GPA, and we all know a degree is all you need to be successful... Bottom line - NOBODY WANTS TO DO THE WORK.

I'm not saying there aren't good kids and good parents out there, but I think the large number of near-feral children take up most of the classroom time and resources. Teachers are expected to be behaviorists, psychologists, wardens, educators, and now bullet shields.
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Report this Post04-05-2018 02:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I graduated HS almost 50 years ago, most of my teachers were very conservative.

My, how times have changed.
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Report this Post04-05-2018 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

I graduated HS almost 50 years ago, most of my teachers were very conservative.

My, how times have changed.


Yep.
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Report this Post04-05-2018 03:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

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You'll have to crank the audio.



...wut hapnd

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2.5

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quote
Originally posted by Gary W:

Schools were good when parents sent them there to learn, and were involved in the process. Also, the teachers were there to teach a subject, not to raise (and indoctrinate) children. I don't mean some particular political direction, though I'm sure it happens, but they're left with teaching them to be functioning human beings, not just how to do math. Yet, they can't do anything about bad behavior and the kids know it. If I had a note sent home when I was a kid that I was acting up at school, I wouldn't be sitting for a week.

As much as I hate Hillary, the "village" it used to take to raise a child is dead. Lots of broken families. They can't play outside (kidnappers!), can't get in trouble (and learn from it) in a non-criminal way, for the most part don't go to church (think what you like of religion, but it was a pretty good example of how to behave). There's no neighborhood, it's all digital. Kids don't get their asses kicked anymore, they hide online. Kids who get picked on don't have any way to combat it, and you get shootings.

The parents are entitled and want teachers to raise their kids, yet won't give them the tools and won't participate. Johnny got bad grades? Call the school and complain. Johnny can't get into a good college without a high GPA, and we all know a degree is all you need to be successful... Bottom line - NOBODY WANTS TO DO THE WORK.

I'm not saying there aren't good kids and good parents out there, but I think the large number of near-feral children take up most of the classroom time and resources. Teachers are expected to be behaviorists, psychologists, wardens, educators, and now bullet shields.


Agreed. And to add many do indoctrinate into leftism.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-05-2018).]

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Threedog
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Report this Post04-05-2018 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThreedogSend a Private Message to ThreedogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Funding...

We spend more per student in the United States (on average) than any other country in the world, and yet are ranked so incredibly low...

From CBS: https://www.cbsnews.com/new...al-list-study-shows/

I've always questioned these figures, and while I don't know exactly where it comes from, I kind of assume most countries aren't being as honest... but I probably just have to accept that it's true. We spend more, and get less.


Because it's WHAT we spend it on.


The ONLY reason why a Teacher needs a "union" is to protect them against claims from students... (harassment, sexual misconduct, etc...) because in the teaching world, it's guilty until proven innocent, but that's it.

We DO have a free market for schools. I wouldn't hesitate to say that MANY of the teachers who have tenure, suck... and many of the good teachers who are motivated and want to do well, end up getting cut first, and go private where they make more money, if not simply for the fact that they don't have to pay teacher's dues... and there aren't a bunch of old farts sucking all the pay from the other teachers.

The money is there to pay teachers, the problem is that so much of it goes to union dues and do-nothing teachers with tenure. People don't realize it... but when you're a Federal or State employee... you aren't really a taxpayer. The tax you pay just slightly reduces your burden on the fiscal budget... but you are still a NET negative to the financials of the state. The taxpayers (property owners in this case) are still footing the bill, and if they're not getting what they expect, they go private. This is why so many states are going to vouchers and charter schools... because they aren't burdened by unions.

This is an age-old argument, about unions... I don't hate them, and I think they're pretty important, especially for trades so they can collectively fight back against decisions that state chooses to impose that may cause undue expenses to someone in a particular vocation, etc.

But people have to realize that teachers unions are NOT... I repeat, NOT a "not for profit" organization. They MAKE money. People always think the teachers unions are all about making things better. Here's the priority list of EVERY teacher's union in the United States (in order of their priority):

1 - Profit for the Union
2 - Union Employees
3 - Teachers who are Union Members
4 - Students


Realize that the entire point of school is to teach kids... yet the teacher's union holds the school system HOSTAGE, and the #1 goal of the taxpayer, is DEAD LAST in the priority list of the organization that controls the schools.

Direct note about how we pay for our schools and our rankings...Some of our public schools are the best in the world, because they are incredibly well funded. Most are not. Thats why the numbers are so skewed.

To everyone in hear claiming that teachers are making insane salaries and leaching from the system, you need to check if you are correct. Your local school district will have its salary schedule online. The "averages" articles pull are very skewed for one huge reason:
There are very few teachers with 5-15 years of experience. The majority have either 15+ or 2-3. This is because teachers can make more money in other professions and they are leaving after a few years. This brings the "average" way up because there are so many teachers who have been in it for a long time, which raises the average dramatically.


Lets take a look at some salary schedules from my state of Colorado.

Denver salary schedule:
http://careers.dpsk12.org/w...tingTable2017-18.jpg

That is not absurd compensation whatsoever, especially for the cost of living in Denver.


Here is Limon:

http://www.limonbadgers.com...ary%20Schedule18.pdf


Here is Salida(Poncha Springs Area)


http://salidaschools.com/Us...dule%202015-2016.pdf


We can also look at Lansing in MI


Lansing, MI

(Page 97) https://www.mackinac.org/ar...2018-06-30_MEA_E.pdf
These are not unreasonable numbers. The only way someone can make an insane amount of money is if they teach for their entire career. If after 20 years you still made 50-60k, who the hell would do it?
Also, about it being "9 months" out of the year. Its not. At the VERY least it is 10. However, you also need to realize that the majority of teachers put in 10-12 hours a day. If you coach a sport you HAVE to put in 12 hours a day. In terms of hours, it is much closer to a year-round position then you might think.


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Report this Post04-05-2018 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

In terms of hours, it is much closer to a year-round position then you might think.



As opposed to the other 99.9% of people who actually DO work "year-round" jobs....and frequently for a LOT less than you're b*tching about.

Like I said before, only a government employee & member of a union can make the kind of demands and statements that you do with a straight face.

If you actually went into the line of work that you're in without first knowing what it pays then you're even dumber than you present yourself to be here.

Conversely, it's impossible to have any sympathy for someone who knowingly goes into a line of work with a clear understanding of what it pays and then b*tches about it incessantly and protests over it.

You made your own choice.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-07-2018).]

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Report this Post04-06-2018 05:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My first and primary thought on this is, why are these teachers still employed..........
Not one striking teacher should be rehired.

That is not to suggest that I think teachers are paid well enough but as public employees, they have no right to strike.

Get back into the class room or find another job that pays what you think you are worth. Teaching is a profession that I generally respect but, it is also one that the person choses. Want to make more bucks, do something else. Oh yeah, keep your politics out of the classroom.

Edited: School Boards need to decide what is important to do with the dollars they have. Teacher's pay is very important. But, we need to get back to basics and provide the tools that our kids and grand kids need for future success. There are way too many programs and classes offered that may round out a student but really don't do much to help students prepare for a competitive world they will soon enter. I've tried to hire young folks previously that couldn't do basic math but they sure as hell think they have a right to free health care and other government freebies.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-06-2018).]

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Report this Post04-06-2018 06:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:
Get back into the class room or find another job that pays what you think you are worth. Teaching is a profession that I generally respect but, it is also one that the person choses. Want to make more bucks, do something else. Oh yeah, keep your politics out of the classroom.


I had this conversation today. A big problem is teacher's unions. The best teacher and the worst teacher are on the same pay scale. Unions need to go and teachers need to be responsible for negotiating their own contract.

Believe it or not, teachers make decent money. the harder it is to retain teachers, the more those districts pay. If your career doesn't pay enough for the education you purchased, that's your fault. Not only did you have salary info available before you chose the career but most teachers start off student teaching with mentors. The realities of the job were not hidden. The greedy OK teachers need to be marked for future termination when new hires can be brought in(one of them is one of my family members). They make less because cost of living is less.

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Report this Post04-06-2018 08:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hammerSend a Private Message to hammerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your figures for the Lansing Mi. teachers contract shows some 1070-1080 hrs per year give or take a bit. 1900 to 2000 hrs per year is what most full time workers do. Again around here
the work year for MOST teachers is after Labor Day through the first full week of June, nine months. SOME teachers are coaching sports during some of the Summer but they are not doing it for free. When you factor in the generous Christmas Break, Thanksgiving Break, Spring Break that nine months pretty much becomes more like eight....
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Report this Post04-06-2018 08:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
During the span of my career, I typically worked 6 days a week, and 10 hours a day at my regular job.
I then worked another 4 hours a day at my side business, and if I had a day off from my regular job, I spent that time on my side business.
My typical work week averaged 90 hours.
I worked for years without taking vacation time, but occassionally would stretch a weekend into a 4 day break.
My jobs always entailed a lot of responsibility, and detailed planning.
I didn't do this due to being a workaholic, that's what it took to meet our needs.

To the teachers out there, I respect what you do. It's an important job.
STFU, get back in the classroom, do what it takes; if it isn't enough, change your livestyle or change your career path.

Cry me a f'in' river...
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Report this Post04-06-2018 10:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
1,920 hours per year is a 40 hour work week with 4 weeks vacation.

I have heard about "most" but not an actual number from our resident tenured teacher Threedog? So, how many hours a year do you work?

I work constantly. That is how it is. I enjoy my chosen career quite a bit. When I am not working, I am working. Always something. Never still.
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Report this Post04-06-2018 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JonesySend a Private Message to JonesyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

I graduated HS almost 50 years ago, most of my teachers were very conservative.

My, how times have changed.


I think it can depend on where you live too. I graduated HS 20 years ago. Went to HS in the south (Alabama).. All the teachers where very conservative.. Hell they still had corporal punishment in my HS.

I agree our schools, especially in the poor areas need a lot of help. As long as the school use the funding correctly. The Jr-HS, and HS i went too down here in Alabama where very poor schools (buildings literally falling apart, books from 20 years ago, ect).. They never had money for new books, computers, ect.. But always had the cash for new jerseys and equipment for the football team.

Then there is getting the parents too invest in their child early education (K - 12).. As most (at least down here in the south) are not willing to do that. 10 or 15 years ago the state purposed a 1 cent sales tax increase. All taxes from that 1 penny increase would go to funding schools. I guess they estimated it would bring in 4 to 5 million a year. Alabama voters voted it down..

So if you can't convince parents to invest in their kids education, you have kinda already lost the fight before it starts.

[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 04-06-2018).]

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Report this Post04-06-2018 10:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
True words, Jonesy.
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Report this Post04-06-2018 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jonesy:


I think it can depend on where you live too. I graduated HS 20 years ago. Went to HS in the south (Alabama).. All the teachers where very conservative.. Hell they still had corporal punishment in my HS.

I agree our schools, especially in the poor areas need a lot of help. As long as the school use the funding correctly. The Jr-HS, and HS i went too down here in Alabama where very poor schools (buildings literally falling apart, books from 20 years ago, ect).. They never had money for new books, computers, ect.. But always had the cash for new jerseys and equipment for the football team.

Then there is getting the parents too invest in their child early education (K - 12).. As most (at least down here in the south) are not willing to do that. 10 or 15 years ago the state purposed a 1 cent sales tax increase. All taxes from that 1 penny increase would go to funding schools. I guess they estimated it would bring in 4 to 5 million a year. Alabama voters voted it down..

So if you can't convince parents to invest in their kids education, you have kinda already lost the fight before it starts.



Right on target. Yeah, back in the day, I was one of those jocks, linebacker and forward on the basket ball team and all I cared about was getting back on the field or court. That was my world and didn't give a damn about all that academic stuff.

Some things are learned the hard way. Sports are way over rated. Music, (vocal and band) theater, shop, home project classes and most of the other "extra" nice to have courses should be on the chopping block if the school(s) are fund limited. Students must have reading, writing and math skills first, today it may also be just as important to possess computer skills. But, the three Rs are ultimately the most important.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-06-2018).]

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Report this Post04-06-2018 10:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LitebulbwithaFieroSend a Private Message to LitebulbwithaFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


But, the three Rs are ultimately the most important.

Rams




Reduce, Re-use, Recycle?

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Report this Post04-06-2018 11:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FatsSend a Private Message to FatsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Doug85GT:

The teachers would not like my solution. Eliminate public schools. Have the government give out education vouchers to parents. Parents would then choose where they want their kids to go. Let the good schools and teachers thrive and the bad ones fail.





I'm all for teachers, and there are good teachers out there now. HOWEVER!, we don't have a lot of "teachers" anymore. We have people that train students to quote things from books. They are organizing protests against our rights. They are Liberal Union members that no longer have teaching as their number one priority. It's time for another way, voucher program FTW.

Brad
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Report this Post04-06-2018 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JonesySend a Private Message to JonesyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fats:





I'm all for teachers, and there are good teachers out there now. HOWEVER!, we don't have a lot of "teachers" anymore. We have people that train students to quote things from books. They are organizing protests against our rights. They are Liberal Union members that no longer have teaching as their number one priority. It's time for another way, voucher program FTW.

Brad


Ehh, again it depends. From my experience (again, in Alabama) The younger newer teachers where much more interesting, energetic, and wanting to teach. Not saying they where all great at it, but the enthusiasm was there. The older teachers.. Hell, you would be grateful if they got up off their ass from behind their desk.

I remember my History teacher Mr's Sprayberry. Very old south type woman. Early 60's.. She would pass out printed notes that she made up years and years ago. Hand them out, then tell you to study them. No talking from her, no lessons, no discussion about historical events. Just here's your notes, memorize them, take the test, pass or fail. She literally put zero effort into her teaching. Ran into many teachers like that in my school years, and pretty much all of them where older teachers who had been around for decades.

The young, even "student teachers", their teaching skills needed work sure, but at least they gave a damn, and would work with you to try to help you "get it" as best they could. How teachers are taught teaching skills these days i have no idea, but i imagine its not all that different than in the past, just a lot more material to learn.

So i don't really think its all down to how teachers are trained now, maybe partly.. Its really all up to the individual teacher, on how they approach their job. Just like any worker, some are lazy as hell, some are super dedicated..

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Report this Post04-06-2018 05:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Life lessions.
The topic is idealism.
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Report this Post04-07-2018 12:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If the Teachers Unions truly represent the interests of the teachers, why have the shortfalls in pension funding gone on for so long, until crisis mode is reached?

The same question could be asked in the case of public employees unions in Chicago, New York, Kentucky.......how long is the list?
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Report this Post04-07-2018 12:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Unions are to exploit people who can't negotiate their worth.
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Report this Post04-07-2018 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One of my clients is the president of a transportation union that is 600 members strong. A part of his role is, and one that is actively taking place as we speak, is to infiltrate it's way into the local and state politics through membership. The man sat at my table telling us how they dig up dirt on Republican representatives and use that in a timely manner to gain votes through the media.

It was not his role in obviously swaying votes through immoral means. It was his face of worth that he put on knowing damn well what he was doing sitting at our table.

As strange as it sounds, moments like that are clear as crystal to me.

Unions are BS. Lazy folks that are immoral and without dignity.
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Report this Post04-07-2018 01:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:

One of my clients is the president of a transportation union that is 600 members strong. A part of his role is, and one that is actively taking place as we speak, is to infiltrate it's way into the local and state politics through membership. The man sat at my table telling us how they dig up dirt on Republican representatives and use that in a timely manner to gain votes through the media.


Did you ask him where Jimmy Hoffa was buried?
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Report this Post04-07-2018 02:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

Did you ask him where Jimmy Hoffa was buried?



Just north of 7 mile. A bit west of Queen St. Detroit's East Side.

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Report this Post04-07-2018 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Love, these teachers. Pretending to care about the kids, and causing them to fall behind. I think it's time for home school or vouchers for private schools. Fire all these jerks.
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Report this Post04-07-2018 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Threedog,
Serious question, what subjects do you teach?

Rams
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Report this Post04-08-2018 01:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:
Teacher walkout will not end.


Hold my beer and watch this.

 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:
They've given us a raise and nothing for students':


They have given you money, ? Who is "they" and, whose money is it.

 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:
Threedog,
Serious question, what subjects do you teach?
Rams


I think I goaded him into answering that question at one time. I could not get out of him of what grade level. It was something about social awareness, political correctness. I don't remember. It was not impressive. He was a indoctrinator, teaching a shallow view of the world.

I know he does not teach history. If he was interested in doing that he would remember when President Ronald Reagan fired all of the unionized Air Traffic Controllers when they thought they could strike their way into having their demands met.

In fact, the biggest blockade in to private vouchers is teacher unions. They know that they can't handle to competition. That or just that they are puzzies, who don't want competition.
In fact, if we just quit funding public education, and instead did the voucher system, all of those fired educators would have to compete in the free enterprise teaching economy. That or say "Would you like fries with that ? Welcome to Wal_Mart ? At least once a year they would be helpful. They could tell them where the school supplies are.

If he was really a teacher, he would want to use the most effective method. If he was really interesting in teaching young minds.

 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:
OK has been ranked last in many categories in Education throughout the states. Yet still, they are cutting funding.


What the hell do you care ? Go teach in Oklahoma and vote for more funding.

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