Well, if history is his base, it's an important lesson that needs to be taught. The problem with some history teachers I've known is, they want to tell and teach a version of history that leans toward their own specific social/political views. That can not be tolerated.
Having read many of Threedog's posting here, I wonder.............
Originally posted by cliffw: In fact, if we just quit funding public education, and instead did the voucher system, all of those fired educators would have to compete in the free enterprise teaching economy.
Works for me, my wife would get paid a premium instead of getting put on the same pay scales as the crap teachers like threedog.
Originally posted by cliffw: Go teach in Oklahoma and vote for more funding.
Heh, I got to thinking. I didn't finish my post.
Go teach in Oklahoma and vote for more funding. Don't hold a gun to our heads and demand more.
Who was it who mentioned you could strike in the summertime ? Or, just don't renew your contract when it's renewal time. Please, please do that. It will make it that much easier to get a voucher system in there.
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Originally posted by jmbishop: Works for me, my wife would get paid a premium instead of getting put on the same pay scales as the crap teachers like threedog.
God bless your wife. Who was it who earlier mentioned the value of teachers. I used to personally know three for many a year. My daughter in law retired and now occasionally substitutes. One became the Vice Principal. One is still teaching. They all hated the union.
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Originally posted by blackrams:
Well, if history is his base, it's an important lesson that needs to be taught. The problem with some history teachers I've known is, they want to tell and teach a version of history that leans toward their own specific social/political views. That can not be tolerated.
Having read many of Threedog's posting here, I wonder............. Rams
Believe me, it was NOT history. You are right though. When a teacher is biased towards any political/social view it can not be tolerated. Speaking of which ... I don't know how the Universities put up with it.
I agree with alot of views in here. At the same time, there are states where teachers are very underpaid. Someone mentioned just union dues coming out of the paychecks. My wife has accumulated over 100k of student loan debt also just because of what they require of them now. She only makes 38k year to boot.
That's also not counting the crappy insurance that comes out also. She is passionate about teaching, but she notices 60% are not and just there to collect a paycheck. So I agree, there should be reviews done couple times a year.
In many States, teachers do not participate in the Social Security system. Their pension needs should be met. There are other venues for saving for retirement, but many have elected not to based on the promises made, and not kept by the pension providers (state Legislature). It's a tough situation for all involved.
In many States, teachers do not participate in the Social Security system. Their pension needs should be met. There are other venues for saving for retirement, but many have elected not to based on the promises made, and not kept by the pension providers (state Legislature). It's a tough situation for all involved.
I whole heartedly agree, the state, legislators and the tax payer owe those that were promised "whatever" the day they were hired into the system. Kentucky (specifically) has spent pension money and not kept their part of the bargain. Kentucky's party in control for the last century has been Democrats. Now the Republicans have the reins. The teacher's pension fund is forecast to be broke in 4 years. The Republican legislators and Governor recognize the problem and are trying to do something about it. We owe those teachers what they were promised but, creative accounting ain't gonna do it..... The Dems passed the problem on to others for decades while spending money on their own projects. It was always someone else's problem. Now the teachers are screwed along with the taxpayers.
Apparently, it's always easy to spend other people's money. Dems have proven it.
Apparently, it's always easy to spend other people's money. Dems have proven it.
Rams
Milton Friedman wisely observed that we spend our own money on ourselves very carefully. We spend other people’s money on ourselves less carefully. But the least carefully spent money is other people’s money on other people.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-08-2018).]
I agree with alot of views in here. At the same time, there are states where teachers are very underpaid. Someone mentioned just union dues coming out of the paychecks. My wife has accumulated over 100k of student loan debt also just because of what they require of them now. She only makes 38k year to boot.
This thread is so all over the map, but your post is exactly to my point. She invested that 100k poorly and if she signeda contact to agree to work for that money she should uphold her agreement.
This thread is so all over the map, but your post is exactly to my point. She invested that 100k poorly and if she signeda contact to agree to work for that money she should uphold her agreement.
Since you broached that subject, (I wasn't going to...), I will add my thoughts.
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Originally posted by Cavvy09:
My wife has accumulated over 100k of student loan debt also just because of what they require of them now. She only makes 38k year to boot.
I'm certain that nobody held a gun to anyone's head and forced her to go that much into debt.
It was a CHOICE.
If that choice was made while knowing full well that the salary that resulted was grossly insufficient to support the amortization of that debt and provide a reasonable profit, then it was a BAD CHOICE.
Attempting to characterize one's own bad financial choices as being "required" or "forced" is disingenuous at best.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-08-2018).]
My point on that statement was that some states are still very underpaid. West Virginia sucks, lol. But she chose this career because it is something she has always been passionate about, and she has always wanted to try to make a difference.
It is not a bad choice if it is something you love to do. Some people are knocking on teacher salaries and just wanted to point out not all make 100k year. She has 3 masters degrees and can get a job making 6 figures if she wanted, but this is what she wants.
Doing what you are "passionate" about is fine as long as you face the reality of whatever that is.
There are probably some that are "passionate" about the study of Mongolian Lesbian Basket Weaving in the 16th Century, but it probably doesn't pay worth a damn.
The same goes for any endeavor
Any education that you pay for toward a prospective career MUST be looked at as an investment.
You have to do the very same ROI and C/B analysis as you would do with any other large investment.
Many times the numbers just don't make good sense and that's when you have to either walk away and find something else that does, or admit that it's a bad investment, accept your loss and don't complain to others about your own choice.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-09-2018).]
Not complaining about her choice. I was simply stating that not all teachers in each state get paid very well verse the investment that states require is all. If that's what she loves to do, then I support her on it. The bonus for us, is that it is an extra paycheck in the house.
And I guess I should be more careful with how I word things. As I said, she has 3 masters also. Only one of them is in education. Child psychology is probly what cost the most in schooling for her.
And I guess I should be more careful with how I word things. As I said, she has 3 masters also. Only one of them is in education. Child psychology is probly what cost the most in schooling for her.
Cavvy09,
I'm curious, why would someone need three Masters Degrees? Not knocking it, I simply don't understand. Unless, she simply enjoyed school.
I granulated with a double major and double minor but, that was mostly because I had absolutely no idea what the heck I really wanted to do. Shrug. I also granulated 😇 With no student loan debt. Worked a full time job my whole college experience. Not something I recommend but necessary in my case.
My point on that statement was that some states are still very underpaid. West Virginia sucks, lol. But she chose this career because it is something she has always been passionate about, and she has always wanted to try to make a difference.
I'm not attacking your wife here. People choose liberal arts degrees and no one bets an eye these days when they cry saying how little they make compared to the expense.
Also in regards too student loans, the issue isn't the pay of the position, it's the cost of the loans. Student loans are nonsense, they are too easily attainable and inflate the cost of education. There's now a dependence on the loans because of the inflated education prices. The best way to combat this is through education in the hopes of helping people make better choices.
The Education "industry" is kind of getting to be out of control. The astronomical cost of college is largely because of the huge salaries of numerous administrators, "guest professors",and other "professionals", that are "oh so necessary."
The Education "industry" is kind of getting to be out of control. The astronomical cost of college is largely because of the huge salaries of numerous administrators, "guest professors",and other "professionals", that are "oh so necessary."
I would suggest there's more to it than that but, I don't have the time or inclination to research it.
Sports programs cost a mint to have and maintain, if you look, there are all kinds of different activities and programs (not just sport related) that universities have going on. Title 9 programs bleed schools of funds no one gives a damn about but they still cost a fortune.
As one of those folks who paid for most of their own education or served to get a little GI Bill assistance, I was flabbergasted at how universities go through money and that was in the last century...... I have no doubt it has gotten worse...
I'm curious, why would someone need three Masters Degrees? Not knocking it, I simply don't understand. Unless, she simply enjoyed school.
I granulated with a double major and double minor but, that was mostly because I had absolutely no idea what the heck I really wanted to do. Shrug. I also granulated 😇 With no student loan debt. Worked a full time job my whole college experience. Not something I recommend but necessary in my case.
Rams
Her bachelor allowed her to just get so many more credit hours to maintain a master's. And yes, she does love school, lol. She will have her doctorate next spring hopefully. School programs also make you have a master's for certain subjects also. Like, right now, don't ask me what her official title is, but she is I guess an evaluator for multi category special education. She observes the kids in the classroom, and has to decide on more or less what is best for that certain individual child. Then, she has one in history, and then child psychology. So, 3 different field areas, greater chance of success I guess is the way she sees it. I don't know why, I just let her do her thing and shake my head yes. Happy wife, happy life kinda thing.
I would suggest there's more to it than that but, I don't have the time or inclination to research it.
Rams
I didn't specifically set out to research it, but I did run across a good bit of commentary on the current high cost of post secondary education.
It seems that real culprit is the same as it was for the real estate collapse / financial crisis of 2008, namely; the financial derivatives market.
Just like mortgage backed securities, anything that can be monetized on Wall Street, will be.
This includes car, truck and boat loans, credit card debt and student loan debt. Tens of thousands individual debt instruments , (notes), are "bundled" together and then sold as a security to groups of investors. The result of this derivatives securities market is high demand by investors who are seeking ever higher yields, which then results in "easy credit" for consumers in order to fuel the market demand. There has been no time in history when student loans have been easier to get than right now in this country.
This of course results in higher demand for the college's and universities' "product" in a market where they control the supply. An age old recipe where they can pretty much demand, (and get), whatever the traffic will bear.
BTW, In case no one noticed it yet, the subprime car loan derivatives market is in the process of crashing at this very moment in the very same manner that the mortgage market did back in 2008 https://www.zerohedge.com/n...start-dropping-flies
Subprime mortgages are also just about back where they were in 08' when the bubble burst then, so in case you "enjoyed" that ride the first time, the best advice I can give right now is: BOHICA!
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-09-2018).]
Also, why does anyone need 3 of anything? How many people on here have more than one fiero? And why? Bet each one usually has its own purpose, or experience with them. I guess same goes for anything else. Lol.
Also, why does anyone need 3 of anything? How many people on here have more than one fiero? And why? Bet each one usually has its own purpose, or experience with them. I guess same goes for anything else. Lol.
I don't know that anyone here is challenging what you "need" or don't need.
I'm in my mid 60's and have a Bachelors Degree and a Masters Degree in Engineering. My investment in both of those has paid very handsomely over the years. Some years ago I began work toward a PhD. in engineering, but after awhile I decided that the return on that expenditure of my time and money was negligible in my own business and I abandoned the effort.
I intend to retire near the end of this year if possible and turn over my engineering business to my son.
Presently I'm enrolled in law school and I'm well aware that I might never recoup the cost of this endeavor, but it's something I have wanted to do for a long time and while I certainly don't *need* a law degree or *need* to be admitted to the Florida bar, it's something that I am enjoying and find a good deal of satisfaction in, and definitely more so because I can afford it without the worry of being saddled with enormous debt. I invested prudently beforehand so that I can "follow my passion" now.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-10-2018).]
Current teachers are turning out the worse generation of idiots yet. Why would they think they need paid more. And these Okla teachers are proven among the worse by their own ranking. Im sure there a good schools or teachers out there, but not in any public schools ive heard of.
Originally posted by jmbishop: Also in regards too student loans, the issue isn't the pay of the position, it's the cost of the loans. Student loans are nonsense, they are too easily attainable and inflate the cost of education.
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Originally posted by hammer: The Education "industry" is kind of getting to be out of control. The astronomical cost of college is largely because of the huge salaries of numerous administrators, "guest professors",and other "professionals", that are "oh so necessary."
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Originally posted by randye: I didn't specifically set out to research it, but I did run across a good bit of commentary on the current high cost of post secondary education.
It seems that real culprit is the same as it was for the real estate collapse / financial crisis of 2008, namely; the financial derivatives market.
randye, how does bundling loans make the price of loans go up. I mean ??? how does it make the price of education go up ?
hammer, you make a good point, believable.
I think jmbishop is more spot on.
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[b]jimbishop ... they are too easily attainable and inflate the cost of education.
Who do we have to thank for that ? Uncle Sam. When Sam started giving out college money, the universities knew they could up the price.
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Originally posted by randye: BOHICA!
What does that mean, ? I have no college education and am a high school drop out.
Again, morals. Yours may be different, but this is not acceptable.
Oklahoma Teacher Admits To Sex With Student During Teacher Walkout
Oklahoma teachers are currently in their second week of walkouts over school funding and salary, and while the majority of the country supports this move (Oklahoma currently ranks in the bottom five in terms of state educational quality) that doesn’t mean teachers are allowed to throw their professional sides to the wind and embark on a bone-a-palooza with students. Yet here we are, all geared up to talk about the ONE teacher who couldn’t keep it in her ****ing pants long enough to get an easy raise after what is more or less a free vacation for teachers.
35-year-old Keri Hoffman, an Oklahoma middle school algebra teacher, admitted to police that she’d had sex “multiple times” with a 15-year-old student during the ongoing teacher walkout. According to the Miami Herald, every day of the walkout Hoffman would pick up students in her car and drive them to take part in the protest at the state Capitol. But since this is possibly the most bizarre timeline out of every dimension that may or may not exist, Hoffman was the only teacher there trying to score a D instead of an A – not only had she been having sex with the student since March 30th, but she always made sure to pick him up first and drop him off last, “having sex with him [the student] each time,” police stated.
And to add insult to injury, police weren’t even the ones who caught Hoffman – she and her husband DROVE to the local police department to confess that she’d been boning this poor kid every day of the walkout. You’d think she felt guilty, but how guilty can you feel when you’ve ****ed the kid MULTIPLE times? I feel “bad” when I cheat on my diet, but true guilt doesn’t come into play until I start to think of the time I heard my grandma fall in the kitchen when I was ~10 and I pretended to be asleep so I wouldn’t have to get up and help her (if I wind up in hell when I die, I’ll definitely deserve it simply for that 🙁 ). If Hoffman really felt guilty she wouldn’t have ****ed this kid 5+ times, which makes me think her husband forced her into confessing – in which case she’s not only a pedophile, but a pushover; Literally zero desirable qualities over here.
After turning herself in, Hoffman was charged with two counts of second degree rape (each charge carries up to 15 years in prison) and one count of facilitating sexual misconduct or communicating with a minor by use of technology. She was booked into Custer County Jail with her bond set at $30,000.
randye, how does bundling loans make the price of loans go up. I mean ??? how does it make the price of education go up ?
It's just basic supply and demand economics Cliff.
The demand on Wall Street for more and more of these derivative securities, (because they pay higher interest), urges the loan originators to make more and more of them which results in "easy credit" and more money available and higher demand in the "education market".
Since the universities and colleges now have the demand and they control the "supply" and there is little competition, they can control the price.
Easily available credit and money almost always creates a market "bubble"...... Those bubbles also always eventually burst.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-10-2018).]
Originally posted by randye: It's just basic supply and demand economics Cliff.
The demand on Wall Street for more and more of these derivative securities, (because they pay higher interest), urges the loan originators to make more and more of them which results in "easy credit" and more money available and higher demand in the "education market".
That makes sense. I would have to guess that those derivative securities in the education market are a little more risky. I dunn know, perhaps they bundle them with car loans, home loans, any loans.
Yesterday, Arizona governor Doug Ducey announced a 20% raise for our state's teachers...........and they are not happy. They still plan to walk out!
At this point, I would just throw up my hands and in my best Trump impersonation, say "Screw you!" It's like trying to reason with my ex wife. It can't be done.
Arizona educators appeared mostly skeptical of Gov. Doug Ducey's proposal to give teachers 20 percent raises by 2020, and the organizers leading the teachers' #RedForEd revolt said it does not change their plans for a walkout.
Leftists: you give them and inch and they take a mile lightyear.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 04-13-2018).]
I think when Oklahoma teachers did it they should have been held in breach of contract. No pay and a death sentence (1-5 years) on them teaching in Oklahoma again. Now the dominoes are falling in the other states. This is simply teaching children to throw a tantrum to get their way instead of slapping them down like a TV in a cheap motel room. Government "educating" children is a farce at best anyway. Any Oklahoma parent not paying more than $8000 (whatever that figure they keep quoting) in state taxes (property, sales, income) is getting way more than they are paying for.
I am sending myself for further education. In this case welding. Plenty of schools offering classes. They range from $1300-20,000. The classes have varying degrees of credit hours and skill sets. A VERY comprehensive (900 hours) one is just a little over $2000 for in state. It doesn't start until August. There is another one that starts next month for $1300 (100 hours). I will be paying the premium to take that class next month and the much more comprehensive one in August. A friend is currently enrolled in the $20,000 (750 hours). He is not paying for it, the government is (he was military). You don't have to be a math genius like Roger to see what I am getting at here.
In many States, teachers do not participate in the Social Security system. Their pension needs should be met. There are other venues for saving for retirement, but many have elected not to based on the promises made, and not kept by the pension providers (state Legislature). It's a tough situation for all involved.
Just curious, how are teachers not participants in the Social Security system? The only organization that I was aware of was the US Government that was allowed to exclude people from SS. But, ever since Reagan did Federal pension reform (got rid of CRS and turned it into FERS), Federal employees pay into Social Security.
One of my daughters works in the Louisville KY system. They do not pay into SS retirement, it is paid into the KY state employees pension fund that is 14 to 15 billion in the red. State government has been using it as a slush fund is part of it, poor economy during last US Administration is part of it, and poor returns on investments is part of it. Current state administration is trying to fix it, and no one in the employ of the state is happy about the proposed fix. It's a tough situation, and a real eye-opener for a lot of them. Sadly, a lot of municipalities and state pensions are in the same, or worse shape. It will be a huge problem going forward. From the reading that I have done, for the most part it is due to Democrats promising and not coming through for the pensioners. Probably another driver for the Dems frenzy to get control of US government so they can bail out cities and States in the future. Research the situation, it is really FUBARed all across the country. Sad....
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 04-17-2018).]
One of my daughters works in the Louisville KY system. They do not pay into SS retirement, it is paid into the KY state employees pension fund that is 14 to 15 billion in the red. State government has been using it as a slush fund is part of it, poor economy during last US Administration is part of it, and poor returns on investments is part of it. Current state administration is trying to fix it, and no one in the employ of the state is happy about the proposed fix. It's a tough situation, and a real eye-opener for a lot of them. Sadly, a lot of municipalities and state pensions are in the same, or worse shape. It will be a huge problem going forward. From the reading that I have done, for the most part it is due to Democrats promising and not coming through for the pensioners. Probably another driver for the Dems frenzy to get control of US government so they can bail out cities and States in the future. Research the situation, it is really FUBARed all across the country. Sad....
Ironically, the same financial derivatives market that has caused the cost of education to go up has also put a lot of pension funds, including union pension funds, deeper into the red.
You and I were not allowed to invest in the mortgage backed, or other loan backed securities. Those were limited to only "Qualified Institutional Investors". which happen to include municipal funds and pension funds and other large entities. Many pension funds invested in MBS and REMIC trusts and have lost most if not all of their money in the "certificates" they bought in these trusts. Although we, the taxpayers, were forced to bail out the banks that created these securitized trusts after the 2008 crash , the investors have never recovered their money.
There are many lawsuits ongoing and some that have recently recouped a portion of their losses caused by misrepresentations and fiscal irresponsibility of the banks / trusts, but the overall losses to a huge number of Americans will never be recovered.
Just curious, how are teachers not participants in the Social Security system? The only organization that I was aware of was the US Government that was allowed to exclude people from SS. But, ever since Reagan did Federal pension reform (got rid of CRS and turned it into FERS), Federal employees pay into Social Security.
Railroad workers also do not pay SS. The Railroad Retirement system is run by the Railroad Retirement Board and is in the green. Of course they take about 15% of your pay as taxes (SS is about 7.5%) and better yet, the Federal government cannot use the fund like they do SS funds (although Al Gore did try while VP to get this changed).
The Arizona legislature and our governor have been giving more and more every day, but the "teachers*" will enter their fifth day of the strike tomorrow. It is time to play "Ronald Reagan and the air traffic controllers".
*What do you think the kids have learned from this?
with a double major and double minor but, that was mostly because I had absolutely no idea what the heck I really wanted to do. Shrug. I also granulated 😇 With no student loan debt. Worked a full time job my whole college experience. Not something I recommend but necessary in my case.
? I have no college education and am a high school drop out.
.
