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People will die because of the Tax Overhaul Bill by 82-T/A [At Work]
Started on: 12-20-2017 06:03 PM
Replies: 43 (1005 views)
Last post by: rogergarrison on 12-25-2017 12:53 PM
82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post12-20-2017 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So, I keep seeing people on Twitter and Democratic Underground saying that people will "die" because of the tax overhaul that just passed this week. I thought for a moment, how exactly does this lead to people dying?

It turns out, some Democrats are saying people will die because the tax bill repeals the individual mandate... IE: You are no longer penalized for not buying health insurance.

So what the Democrats are actually saying, is that by NOT FORCING people to buy health care (because they're too stupid to make the right decision), that people will die.


Ok... ?
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Report this Post12-20-2017 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Honestly, I'm confused about dropping that penalty. Doesn't make much sense to me. Won't that only increase those who don't have health insurance that someone else has to pay for? Folks die of their own stupidity on a daily basis. I can't help those who refuse to help themselves.

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Report this Post12-20-2017 06:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LitebulbwithaFieroSend a Private Message to LitebulbwithaFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There has to be more to it then just the no longer mandated insurance boo poo
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Report this Post12-20-2017 06:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fewer people will die, because you are no longer required to have it. This means insurance companies can no longer charge as much as they want/can get away with. This leads to more people being able to afford it, where before you had extortion-esque rates many couldn't afford.
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Report this Post12-20-2017 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You completely called it the other day Todd. All doom and gloom in the news.

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Report this Post12-20-2017 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
People will Die ?

I hope they are not dumbocratz.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 12-20-2017).]

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Report this Post12-20-2017 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:

People will Die ?

I hope they are not dumbocratz.




Yeah, more votes.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post12-20-2017 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

Honestly, I'm confused about dropping that penalty. Doesn't make much sense to me. Won't that only increase those who don't have health insurance that someone else has to pay for? Folks die of their own stupidity on a daily basis. I can't help those who refuse to help themselves.


I am against it on principle. To me, it felt like a mandate to purchase a product, and I think it set a dangerous precedence. So I oppose (for whatever that's worth), anything that requires me to buy anything, by law... simply for being alive.


 
quote
Originally posted by LitebulbwithaFiero:

There has to be more to it then just the no longer mandated insurance boo poo



I swear, I looked... can't find anything else.

I looked for maybe a climate change angle with Anwar oil drilling, and no, that's not it either. It's literally because we are not requiring people by law to buy health insurance.


 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:

You completely called it the other day Todd. All doom and gloom in the news.


I do like being right, not going to lie...
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Report this Post12-20-2017 08:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think smoking kills more than tax cuts, but I could be wrong.
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Report this Post12-20-2017 09:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for spark1Send a Private Message to spark1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We are going to pay, one way or another. The cost of uninsured is hidden in our medical insurance premiums.
I think the cost of treating uninsured should be identified in our medical insurance payments like it is on car insurance policies.

Ultimately we all pay when others don't.
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Report this Post12-20-2017 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by spark1:

We are going to pay, one way or another. The cost of uninsured is hidden in our medical insurance premiums.
I think the cost of treating uninsured should be identified in our medical insurance payments like it is on car insurance policies.

Ultimately we all pay when others don't.


Precisely the reason for my confusion.
Some body is going to end up paying for uninsured people. Whether it's an insurance company through premiums or the taxpayer. Hospital corporations, doctors and pharmaceutical companies are not going to bite that bullet.
IMHO, everyone should have to pay their own way. Been doing that my entire life and I'm tired of pulling that load and watching others skate by on my dime.

------------------
Rams

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but …
after a shooting, the problem is the gun....
Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.

My wife told me to grow up. I told her to get out of my fort!

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Report this Post12-20-2017 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Precisely the reason for my confusion.
Some body is going to end up paying for uninsured people. Whether it's an insurance company through premiums or the taxpayer. Hospital corporations, doctors and pharmaceutical companies are not going to bite that bullet.
IMHO, everyone should have to pay their own way. Been doing that my entire life and I'm tired of pulling that load and watching others skate by on my dime.

The reason you've been paying too much for uninsured people is because of over regulation, more regulation doesn't change that. FyI even with mandated insurance the people who have always been stealing it still stole it because there were income based exemptions.

Insurance providers are limited on discrimination. Me as a healthy man and a very low chance of needing insurance period don't get a discounted plan, statistically I'm the healthiest in my household yet my insurance alone is 2.5x the price of my wife and child combined.

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Report this Post12-20-2017 11:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

So, I keep seeing people on Twitter and Democratic Underground saying that people will "die" because of the tax overhaul that just passed this week. I thought for a moment, how exactly does this lead to people dying?

It turns out, some Democrats are saying people will die because the tax bill repeals the individual mandate... IE: You are no longer penalized for not buying health insurance.

So what the Democrats are actually saying, is that by NOT FORCING people to buy health care (because they're too stupid to make the right decision), that people will die.


Ok... ?


I look at those theatrics in the same way I did when my own children would get mad because they were told NO and then threw a tantrum and said we were only telling them no because we "hate them" and they are going to leave home and we will never see them again.

I think I probably said those very same things to my parents when I was a child.

Nobody "hated" anyone, and nobody ran away and was never seen again, and the theatrical performances never worked for me or my own children.

The point is, the left behave exactly like angry children and are just as predictable.

As rational adults we know that there aren't going to be any "mass deaths" because a government mandated health INSURANCE purchasing requirement was eliminated.

The left really and truly believed deep in their little socialist heads that they were within grasping distance of single payer, government run, health CARE this time, so the further and further that illusion is now removed from them the more hysterical they will become.

It's very important not to allow the left to muddle the terms insurance and *care* together as they have historically done over this issue. Their goal was always health CARE. The means to that end was through government mandated health insurance which was set up from the outset to fail. The "fix" for that failure was always to be single payer universal health care. Hillary was supposed to finish the job.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 12-21-2017).]

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Report this Post12-21-2017 10:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ThreedogSend a Private Message to ThreedogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RWDPLZ:

Fewer people will die, because you are no longer required to have it. This means insurance companies can no longer charge as much as they want/can get away with. This leads to more people being able to afford it, where before you had extortion-esque rates many couldn't afford.


Thats...thats not how this works.
Insurance rates go down with the more people who are paying premiums. It is essentially a money pool.


That is why the free market doesn't work for medical industry. You only need these things in times of absolute tragedy, you can't cross shop them like you can a car or gallon of milk. You can't pick a different, cheaper hospital when you are bleeding out..As a result, you can only cross shop insurance. This means that the hospitals are still charging an insane amount and the insurance can only negotiate it down so much. This is why the US pays more per person for healthcare than any other country but doesn't receive the best care.

Just about every single industrialized country has the citizens paying less per person and receiving equal or better care because there is a different system. Capitalism has brought the United States some of the absolute greatest achievements in human history, but the free market does not work in every situation and we are forcing it to in this case. Think about it, would you want the fire department or the police to work off of an insurance market? The only way we could pay them was through insurance? That would be insanity..

[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 12-21-2017).]

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Report this Post12-21-2017 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Health Care or insurance is expensive in the USA, because it is a quasi-socialist system. Half the people in the program don't pay anything and therefore those that do pay have to cover for them. Also confiscatory regulations and ambulance chasing attorneys who sue for everything makes it skyrocket to the moon. Unless we control that, it wouldn't matter how many people pay into it, the cost will exponentially increase.

Tort reform and streamline responsible regulations along with not viewing "insurance" as routine care. That's like insurance for cars that cover carwashes, tires, oil changes, wiper blades, fuel and etc. Yeah that will drive cost up for insurance big time.


You cite Canada as a model? There are more people in California than Canada. So have Canada try to scale up 10x what they do now and 10x the number of Dem voters who don't pay in or any taxes and see how it works.
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Report this Post12-21-2017 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its just libs crying about Trump again. Same people are going to die. The government forcing you to buy anything is wrong. The people that didnt obey the mandate wont buy insurance anyway, much less worry about a mandate. I know people who just paid the penalty because it was the cheapest way out. If you make $20k a year, do you buy $10K per year insurance or pay a @2k penalty...duh. You dont even have to pay the penalty...the only way they can 'take' it is by taking it out of your income tax refund. If you dont get one, or make too little to pay any, there is no refund...so they really get absolutely nothing.
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Report this Post12-21-2017 02:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:

Insurance rates go down with the more people who are paying premiums. It is essentially a money pool.




Its obvious that you have a child's concept of how insurance works.

Lets start with the term actuarial science and how premium rates are determined.

You are an example of why the left is so notoriously bad with economics.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 12-21-2017).]

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Report this Post12-22-2017 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

So, I keep seeing people on Twitter and Democratic Underground saying that people will "die" because of the tax overhaul that just passed this week. I thought for a moment, how exactly does this lead to people dying?

It turns out, some Democrats are saying people will die because the tax bill repeals the individual mandate... IE: You are no longer penalized for not buying health insurance.

So what the Democrats are actually saying, is that by NOT FORCING people to buy health care (because they're too stupid to make the right decision), that people will die.


Ok... ?



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Report this Post12-22-2017 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ls3machSend a Private Message to ls3machEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd be okay with more people dying. I'm thinking like a HUGE global epidemic. Would really help the economy. New jobs. Less welfare recipients. Less pollution. That's just to name a few.

I jest, but only slightly.
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Report this Post12-22-2017 11:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ls3mach:

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd be okay with more people dying. I'm thinking like a HUGE global epidemic. Would really help the economy. New jobs. Less welfare recipients. Less pollution. That's just to name a few.

I jest, but only slightly.


I have a list.

We could use it as a starting point if O/T is interested.

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Report this Post12-22-2017 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:

I have a list.

We could use it as a starting point if O/T is interested.



No, let's not.


What we could do, is simply not feed into victim mentality, and encourage everyone to work hard for common good.

Spread humanity throughout the universe... starting with the Moon, then Mars... hell yeah. IPV6 can handle it.
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Report this Post12-22-2017 12:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is called internet banter.

You don't think I really have a list of people I want dead, do you?
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Report this Post12-22-2017 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:

This is called internet banter.

You don't think I really have a list of people I want dead, do you?



Hahah! Of course not!

(I'm not on it, am I?)
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Report this Post12-22-2017 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ls3machSend a Private Message to ls3machEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:


I have a list.

We could use it as a starting point if O/T is interested.


That's really the problem. I am not looking to do it at all demographically, democratically, or with any planning. I mean if that was the case and it was a lottery or something, I'd put my name in a couple extra times to ease the burden of my wife and kid. I wouldn't for my mother though. She has had 50 year here, she's on her own. My proposal is just sheer dumb luck. Everyone gets the same likely hood of suffering for the betterment of the world.

I haven't read the bill. I'm not going to. I am still just taken aback by the whole thing. Mind you I can't quote the exact arguments of either side as time passed, but originally it wasn't a tax and then it could only be ruled constitutional as a tax or vice versa. I don't understand how it was ever legal. I hate the whole discussion at this point.

I think the point could be made that if you looked over EVERYONE's budget they have frivolous spending that they believe isn't something they could do without. Fast food, smoking, drinking, drugs, driving instead of walking, cable, the thermostat set at X, pets, size of house, wattage of light bulbs, drinking soda, coffee, not cooking every meal at home in bulk. Whatever it may be. I for sure could live on less...and have. I'd take anyone to task on saying there is no room in their budget to tighten.


The minimum standard of living in this country is quite absurd. I look at the things my kid has and it would be unheard of for me at her age and preposterous for my mother or even her mother who is a few years older than me. A bike was freedom and one of the most important things when I was 14. She sold hers for $20 at a garage sale because she had only rode it less than a mile ever. I wish I'd had a trip meter on my bike. Damn, the miles.

[This message has been edited by ls3mach (edited 12-22-2017).]

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Report this Post12-22-2017 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Hahah! Of course not!

(I'm not on it, am I?)


Some names are in ink and some are in pencil.

Yours is presently in pencil.

We'll see how it goes.
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Report this Post12-22-2017 05:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:


Some names are in ink and some are in pencil.

Yours is presently in pencil.

We'll see how it goes.



Hahaha!!! I've got an eraser to sell you.
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Report this Post12-22-2017 05:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


Hahaha!!! I've got an eraser to sell you.



This is your government. We would like to speak to you about your non payment of tax on the sale of said eraser.

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Report this Post12-22-2017 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ls3mach:


The minimum standard of living in this country is quite absurd.



What we call "poverty level" in this country is also absurd when compared to the rest of the planet.
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Report this Post12-22-2017 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:
What we call "poverty level" in this country is also absurd when compared to the rest of the planet.


Oh my god! I find myself agreeing with a randye post.
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Report this Post12-23-2017 12:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:
What we call "poverty level" in this country is also absurd when compared to the rest of the planet.


One of my pet peeves is when someone says "I'm starving" or "I'm freezing".
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Report this Post12-23-2017 01:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:


One of my pet peeves is when someone says "I'm starving" or "I'm freezing".


There are people starving and freezing here, there are people who live 3rd world standards here. Some of them are vets.

There are some people in the third world that live richer lifestyles than the average American.

Expenses are higher here than Mexico or China, and things like building codes and city ordinances make some people homeless, where in the 3rd world they would have been ok.

In other words to not be homeless, you have to keep the neighbors happy, and sometimes that means not eating.

Appalachia would make a good case study.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 12-23-2017).]

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Report this Post12-23-2017 02:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:


There are people starving and freezing here, there are people who live 3rd world standards here. Some of them are vets.



Nobody has ever said "I'm starving" or "I'm freezing" around me in a context that was true and it's always to complain about first world problems.

That's not to say, I'm not around poor people, I work with a recovery ministry located in a poor suburb where most are either hard working immigrant families packed into houses or people on government assistance. There's more than enough for these people but often if they go without it's because they spent their money or sold their food stamps for drugs or alcohol. There are some people, even vets who are putting themselves on the streets by choice, there are many programs to help these people but they have to be willing to do the basic stuff required of them. The argument to be made is that they are often plagued by mental issues. The treatment of these things is tough to implement when they don't want that kind of help, however that's still a first world problem. In a 3rd world, these people have no chance.

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 12-23-2017).]

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Report this Post12-23-2017 05:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FriendGregorySend a Private Message to FriendGregoryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:What we call "poverty level" in this country is also absurd when compared to the rest of the planet.


Poverty around the SF Bay area is different than Missouri. That being said, people may die.
It sounds like local, and state taxes may no longer be an deductible. That is a lot of money. I may need to raise the rents.
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Report this Post12-23-2017 05:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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RWDPLZ
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Report this Post12-23-2017 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by FriendGregory:


Poverty around the SF Bay area is different than Missouri.


Yeah, I remember seeing one panhandler on a street corner in San Jose give up, walk around the corner, throw her cardboard sign in her BMW, and drive off.

 
quote

I may need to raise the rents.


That's why I left, I couldn't afford to live there anymore.
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LitebulbwithaFiero
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Report this Post12-23-2017 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LitebulbwithaFieroSend a Private Message to LitebulbwithaFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jmbishop:

http://taxplancalculator.com/calc



Says I will save $1600
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rogergarrison
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Report this Post12-23-2017 10:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The ONLY way id live in California is if Britney called me, and told me I could live with her and she would pay for everything. So you see how much of a chance of that happening there is. I went to LA ONCE by plane, stayed a few hours and came right back. It was just for a Britney TV taping. I think all I spent there was for a can of soda.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post12-23-2017 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by LitebulbwithaFiero:

Says I will save $1600



Holy crap, it says I'll save $5,135 !!!

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ls3mach
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Report this Post12-23-2017 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ls3machSend a Private Message to ls3machEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by randye:
What we call "poverty level" in this country is also absurd when compared to the rest of the planet.


No argument.
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dennis_6
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Report this Post12-23-2017 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jmbishop:

Nobody has ever said "I'm starving" or "I'm freezing" around me in a context that was true and it's always to complain about first world problems.

That's not to say, I'm not around poor people, I work with a RECIVERY ministry located in a poor suburb where most are either hard working immigrant families packed into houses or people on government assistance. There's more than enough for these people but often if they go without it's because they spent their money or sold their food stamps for drugs or alcohol. There are some people, even vets who are putting themselves on the streets by choice, there are many programs to help these people but they have to be willing to do the basic stuff required of them. The argument to be made is that they are often plagued by mental issues. The treatment of these things is tough to implement when they don't want that kind of help, however that's still a first world problem. In a 3rd world, these people have no chance.


Try rural flyover country, where emts are paid 8.50 a hour and a good job pays 10.00 a hour. These people are always one car breakdown from homeless.
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