Problem is, many people here want the people to just die, as everyone the forum is perfect and never makes a single mistake in their lives.
My Goodness!! Either most of us need to work on our communication/writing skills or you need to work on your reading comprehension. If that's what you got out of this thread or specifically my posts, then one (or both of us) are really failing in our attempt to communicate or, someone ain't listening (reading). No where did I read anything that said anyone was perfect. Failure to accept that a person is responsible for their own actions and decisions is only acceptable until you're on the receiving end of someone else's bad decision.
Originally posted by blackrams: My Goodness!! Either most of us need to work on our communication/writing skills or you need to work on your reading comprehension.
What I see in Threedogs post is liberal 101 Searching for a bad guy, for persecution, etc. Reality, objective thought, logic, thinking past the 1st step, and principle doesn't enter the equation.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-26-2017).]
Originally posted by 2.5: Personal responsibility, personal consequences are what is needed. Begin with removing hand outs, and more serious punishments, not less punishment and more handoutrs.
Think about what enables, and don't do it or support it.
I wish death on no one. I hope people can get over their addictions and continue on with life. But I have seen it, the addiction is too hard to kick. Even with professional help, they can make progress, but some how manage to relapse.
I wholeheartedly think that making it harder for them to get the drug in the first place, before becoming addicted to it, is the answer. But, how to accomplish this, is not in my wheel house.
Maybe if parents taught their offspring how to be happy and enjoy life and be thankful for what they have and not the, I'm oppressed b/s they not be looking for away to get away from reality , as they be thankful and happy.. and enjoying life and not need to try to escape.. I know too easy
Originally posted by blackrams: My Goodness!! Either most of us need to work on our communication/writing skills or you need to work on your reading comprehension. If that's what you got out of this thread or specifically my posts, then one (or both of us) are really failing in our attempt to communicate or, someone ain't listening (reading). No where did I read anything that said anyone was perfect. Failure to accept that a person is responsible for their own actions and decisions is only acceptable until you're on the receiving end of someone else's bad decision.
Personal responsibility isn't in liberals dictionary , So he most likely doesn't understand what you speak of..
Originally posted by Keel: Maybe if parents taught their offspring how to be happy and enjoy life and be thankful for what they have and not the, I'm oppressed b/s they not be looking for away to get away from reality , as they be thankful and happy.. and enjoying life and not need to try to escape.. I know too easy
Pretty much
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-26-2017).]
Problem is, many people here want the people to just die,....
Now you're just trying the same old worn out, childish "shaming" nonsense. "You just want the people to die", (...you mean heartless, evil, conservatives)
It's all about your EMOTIONS and making your decisions based on those emotions instead of objective data and reality.
THAT is the central core of it with you, as it is with all leftist liberals. You're like children.
The simple fact is that it's really YOU that wants people to die.
You want innocent, tax paying, productive people to die.
You want a child critically injured in an auto accident to die because the EMTs were too busy elsewhere having to resuscitate an addict for the 2nd time that same day.
You want some family's father to needlessly die of a heart attack because the old malfunctioning defib equipment on the ambulance couldn't be replaced because the money was spent on meds to resuscitate drug addicts.
You want even more innocent people to die because there weren't enough ambulances around the community or trained EMTs to staff them because all of the tax funds allocated to purchase more of them are GONE. Wasted to resuscitate drug addicts over and over again.
...and those precious drug addicts of yours, that you're so emotional about, sure as hell are NOT tax paying, productive members of the community.
They're parasites and a threat to the safety and security of everyone else.
...and so are mentally deficient, leftists like you who would imperil the lives of innocent people of the community while YOU aid and abet that threat...WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:
....as everyone the forum is perfect and never makes a single mistake in their lives.
It stops being a "mistake" when you keep doing the same stupid crap over and over again you dumbass.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 10-27-2017).]
I wish death on no one. I hope people can get over their addictions and continue on with life. But I have seen it, the addiction is too hard to kick. Even with professional help, they can make progress, but some how manage to relapse.
I wholeheartedly think that making it harder for them to get the drug in the first place, before becoming addicted to it, is the answer. But, how to accomplish this, is not in my wheel house.
I agree with this post and second it. I don't want to kill drug addicts, I have seen MANY addicted people that are good people, they just have a MAJOR life malfunction. I want ALL people to kick the addiction and get on with a healing process and rebuilding their life and those they affected. I have also seen people waste hours, weeks, months and even years of rehab and counciling. That equals A LOT of time and money wasted. I don't claim to know the answer but there is no doubt in my mind that spending tax money on rehab is not working. Prevention is no doubt the ONLY solution. Legalization is a monstrous and barbaric nazi experiment.
I agree with this post and second it. I don't want to kill drug addicts, I have seen MANY addicted people that are good people, they just have a MAJOR life malfunction. I want ALL people to kick the addiction and get on with a healing process and rebuilding their life and those they affected. I have also seen people waste hours, weeks, months and even years of rehab and counciling. That equals A LOT of time and money wasted. I don't claim to know the answer but there is no doubt in my mind that spending tax money on rehab is not working. Prevention is no doubt the ONLY solution. Legalization is a monstrous and barbaric nazi experiment.
I'm not wishing death on anyone, I'm simply not willing to waste resources on someone who has made a decision to be stupid and OD due to whatever reason. Prevention has failed miserably, I don't see that changing unless we're willing to give up all of our rights and let Big Brother run our lives and I have serious doubts that would even stop the problem. I am not willing to give up my rights. I don't care what these folks do in the privacy of their homes and long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't agree with courts ordering anyone into rehab and I don't agree with rehab in prisons with the exception of those looking to be rehabilitated. They should get one shot at it IMHO. Prison was not meant to be a vacation, it's supposed to be served as punishment and to protect the rest of us from dangerous people. Failing Rehab, it's pretty obvious they were not serious about it or used that program to gain something beneficial to them while in prison. I also lack the answers but I do believe that if we let them do what they want drug wise, our problems will decrease. Forest Gump was right, stupid is as stupid does. Wasting resources on such people is really stupid.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-26-2017).]
Hasn't anyone here ever been in a 12 Step Program? One of the things first talked about with adictions, whether it be from alcohol or drugs, is that there are only three ways it can go. Recovery, mental illness or death. There are no other options. Someone who knows the addicted person and enables them, does not do that addicted person any favors. They need to hit their rock bottom. Then maybe they can get out from under their abuse. But, doing things that allow them to continue to abuse their drug of choice is not good for the addicted person, the person who is helping them and for society as a whole. It is not that people don't care, but that they don't want to make it worse.
Hasn't anyone here ever been in a 12 Step Program? One of the things first talked about with adictions, whether it be from alcohol or drugs, is that there are only three ways it can go. Recovery, mental illness or death. There are no other options.
Not sure where to find that information but, it might be interesting to learn the percentages of those who meet those three end results.
Hasn't anyone here ever been in a 12 Step Program?
Nope, but my wife and I used to be pretty regular in another "step program".
I have to also say that I do find it curious that you asked that question as though you were somehow surprised that everyone here hadn't been in some sort of rehab before...
You do realize that the vast majority of the population do not have substance abuse problems?
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 10-26-2017).]
Not sure where to find that information but, it might be interesting to learn the percentages of those who meet those three end results.
I might have to find it again, (if I even care to), but yesterday I did find a statistic that claimed that far less than 30% successfully complete drug and alcohol rehab programs and do not return to their addiction.
The largest percentage by far never even complete the programs, but drop out, especially those in court ordered programs as an alternative to prison.
Let's be generous and say that the "success" rate is 29%. That is a clear indicator that rehab simply isn't effective.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 10-26-2017).]
I might have to find it again, (if I even care to), but yesterday I did find a statistic that claimed that far less than 30% successfully complete drug and alcohol rehab programs and do not return to their addiction.
The largest percentage by far never even complete the programs, but drop out, especially those in court ordered programs as an alternative to prison.
Let's be generous and say that the "success" rate is 29%. That is a clear indicator that rehab simply isn't effective.
Well, assuming those numbers are correct, then I'd say that no addict should get a second chance. They simply aren't worth the investment.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
I'm not wishing death on anyone, I'm simply not willing to waste resources on someone who has made a decision to be stupid and OD due to whatever reason.
I understand. But if it were my child I would want to save them. I assume other people don't want to dispose of family like soiled trash?
quote
Prevention has failed miserably,
This is an impossible statement to prove without knowing how bad it could be if there were no restrictions. I will not give my consent to giving legalization a chance or try, to "see if it works better"
quote
I don't see that changing unless we're willing to give up all of our rights and let Big Brother run our lives and I have serious doubts that would even stop the problem. I am not willing to give up my rights.
Give me a hint? What rights do you fear loosing that could help the drug problem?
quote
I don't care what these folks do in the privacy of their homes and long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't agree with courts ordering anyone into rehab and I don't agree with rehab in prisons with the exception of those looking to be rehabilitated. They should get one shot at it IMHO. Prison was not meant to be a vacation, it's supposed to be served as punishment and to protect the rest of us from dangerous people. Failing Rehab, it's pretty obvious they were not serious about it or used that program to gain something beneficial to them while in prison. I also lack the answers but I do believe that if we let them do what they want drug wise, our problems will decrease. Forest Gump was right, stupid is as stupid does. Wasting resources on such people is really stupid.
I understand your frustration, I feel it too. BUT what a drug addict does to get drugs does affect other people. What a drug addict does while they are on drugs, does affect other people. How the government treats or handles drug addicts does affect other people. Your insurance rates are affected by drug addicts. You house is burgled by drug addicts. What a drug addict does, DOES NOT stay in the privacy of their own dwelling.
And I also agree that at some point, we must give up on trying to help them. What is that point? I don't know. I guess that would be up the the voters to hash out at a ballot box some day.
I have to also say that I do find it curious that you asked that question as though you were somehow surprised that everyone here hadn't been in some sort of rehab before...
You do realize that the vast majority of the population do not have substance abuse problems?
I was thinking if I had said that, I would have been thinking, how can society want to enable them like it is doing, haven't they even heard of how sobriety programs work.
I understand your frustration, I feel it too. BUT what a drug addict does to get drugs does affect other people. What a drug addict does while they are on drugs, does affect other people. How the government treats or handles drug addicts does affect other people. Your insurance rates are affected by drug addicts. You house is burgled by drug addicts. What a drug addict does, DOES NOT stay in the privacy of their own dwelling.
Yep, like I usually say in these arguments. If they want to do these things, let them leave society and go to an island and do it. And I mean leave society.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-27-2017).]
I'm not wishing death on anyone, I'm simply not willing to waste resources on someone who has made a decision to be stupid and OD due to whatever reason.
I understand. But if it were my child I would want to save them. I assume other people don't want to dispose of family like soiled trash? Â quote
Prevention has failed miserably,
This is an impossible statement to prove without knowing how bad it could be if there were no restrictions. I will not give my consent to giving legalization a chance or try, to "see if it works better" Â quote
I don't see that changing unless we're willing to give up all of our rights and let Big Brother run our lives and I have serious doubts that would even stop the problem. I am not willing to give up my rights.
Give me a hint? What rights do you fear loosing that could help the drug problem?
 quote
I don't care what these folks do in the privacy of their homes and long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't agree with courts ordering anyone into rehab and I don't agree with rehab in prisons with the exception of those looking to be rehabilitated. They should get one shot at it IMHO. Prison was not meant to be a vacation, it's supposed to be served as punishment and to protect the rest of us from dangerous people. Failing Rehab, it's pretty obvious they were not serious about it or used that program to gain something beneficial to them while in prison. I also lack the answers but I do believe that if we let them do what they want drug wise, our problems will decrease. Forest Gump was right, stupid is as stupid does. Wasting resources on such people is really stupid.
I understand your frustration, I feel it too. BUT what a drug addict does to get drugs does affect other people. What a drug addict does while they are on drugs, does affect other people. How the government treats or handles drug addicts does affect other people. Your insurance rates are affected by drug addicts. You house is burgled by drug addicts. What a drug addict does, DOES NOT stay in the privacy of their own dwelling.
And I also agree that at some point, we must give up on trying to help them. What is that point? I don't know. I guess that would be up the the voters to hash out at a ballot box some day.
.
Responsible parenting could do wonders in this arena. That's not to suggest good families don't have problem children but as I said previously, it doesn't take a village to rear a child, it takes two responsible parents who give a damn.
If, nothing else, the right of privacy and rights concerning reasonable search by law enforcement could be affected.
You are also correct that drug abuse does effect all of us in one way or another. I have neighbors who have had their stuff stolen and then some of it recovered. It was always druggies from the trailer park down the road that stole the stuff and then pedaled it for cash or drugs. My answer to that is not jail but a good castle doctrine law. No, none of us want to lose our children and that's why we have to be involved. It's not society's job to take care of your or my kids. What worries me is teachers with Threedog's attitude and perspective are teaching/nurturing and providing social insight to the rights and wrongs of a society they think is right while they should be teaching ABCs, math and science.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-27-2017).]
Originally posted by blackrams: Responsible parenting could do wonders in this arena. That's not to suggest good families don't have problem children but as I said previously, it doesn't take a village to rear a child, it takes two responsible parents who give a damn.
If, nothing else, the right of privacy and rights concerning reasonable search by law enforcement could be affected.
You are also correct that drug abuse does effect all of us in one way or another. I have neighbors who have had their stuff stolen and then some of it recovered. It was always druggies from the trailer park down the road that stole the stuff and then pedaled it for cash or drugs. My answer to that is not jail but a good castle doctrine law. No, none of us want to lose our children and that's why we have to be involved. It's not society's job to take care of your or my kids. What worries me is teachers with Threedog's attitude and perspective are teaching/nurturing and providing social insight to the rights and wrongs of a society they think is right while they should be teaching ABCs, math and science.
What worries me is teachers with Threedog's attitude and perspective are teaching/nurturing and providing social insight to the rights and wrongs of a society they think is right while they should be teaching ABCs, math and science.
Agreed. It happens in all grades of school now. It started in the colleges.
Responsible parenting could do wonders in this arena. That's not to suggest good families don't have problem children but as I said previously, it doesn't take a village to rear a child, it takes two responsible parents who give a damn.
Well, ok....but the reality is that we can't force parents to stay together. We have a culture of disposable relationships, "fathers" have left the building and "mothers" have several children from more than one man. Now what?
quote
If, nothing else, the right of privacy and rights concerning reasonable search by law enforcement could be affected.
Under current law, or some type of changes?
quote
You are also correct that drug abuse does effect all of us in one way or another. I have neighbors who have had their stuff stolen and then some of it recovered. It was always druggies from the trailer park down the road that stole the stuff and then pedaled it for cash or drugs. My answer to that is not jail but a good castle doctrine law.
Again, under current law this is impossible. We need to get it to the ballot box. And for what it is worth, I support stronger laws to help victims protect family AND property.
quote
No, none of us want to lose our children and that's why we have to be involved. It's not society's job to take care of your or my kids.
Sorry, but yes it is societies job to do so. It is not just the right thing to do, but an investment in the future of American society. Remember that America has made HUGE changes in morality and one of those changes is the peddling of children on to somebody else. No it is not right, but it is happening, so we need to deal with it.
quote
What worries me is teachers with Threedog's attitude and perspective are teaching/nurturing and providing social insight to the rights and wrongs of a society they think is right while they should be teaching ABCs, math and science.
They should be fired.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-27-2017).]
I have two drug addled sons, one way worse than the other. At least the younger one holds down a job but the oldest guy is a complete mess.
They come from a good upper middle class background.
Even though we divorced when they were very young they lacked for nothing, either physically or in parenting. They got every advantage offered by two parents who were always there for them.
We were tough when we had to be. Stricter than a lot of couples that stayed together. No violence, no head games, no guilt trips. They also had two excellent step-parents. Both of who knew when to step in and when to step out.
I also have a daughter who has a Masters in Education and leads a perfectly normal life with kids and a hard working spouse.
So there is literally NOTHING in the boy's background that would lead you to think they'd turned out the way they did.
I've done everything I could to help. Shelter, transportation, money. They took it all and showed no remorse or gratefulness.
But math, the alphabet and science are all racist.
I hope this isn't too far off topic. But its still in line with the statement I responded to from Blackrams too.
lol, For example it can be a problem for some arguments when science only shows x and y chromosomes. Also that language has an actual use, function and meaning.
Check this out from 11:22, at 16:16 the nutjob clarifies the intentions. Jordans response to all of it is pretty sweet.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-27-2017).]
I have two drug addled sons, one way worse than the other. At least the younger one holds down a job but the oldest guy is a complete mess.
They come from a good upper middle class background.
Even though we divorced when they were very young they lacked for nothing, either physically or in parenting. They got every advantage offered by two parents who were always there for them.
We were tough when we had to be. Stricter than a lot of couples that stayed together. No violence, no head games, no guilt trips. They also had two excellent step-parents. Both of who knew when to step in and when to step out.
I also have a daughter who has a Masters in Education and leads a perfectly normal life with kids and a hard working spouse.
So there is literally NOTHING in the boy's background that would lead you to think they'd turned out the way they did.
I've done everything I could to help. Shelter, transportation, money. They took it all and showed no remorse or gratefulness.
It's sad but I've been though a lot worse.
I work with a guy who has almost the same experience. But in his case his son became a gang member and robbed his own parents house several times for drugs. He is now in prison, a shame to his father and mother. The father (my co-worker) was the tough guy and the mother was the enabler and they nearly divorced over their sons drug addiction. I agree, there is no guaranteed formula for determining who will or won't become an addict. BUT the bottom line is drugs suck and should never be legalized or tolerated. Not all people in a ghetto are addicts just as not all people in gated communities are rich and happy. But one thing is guaranteed,... people who have never done drugs are not addicted to them. People should not have a choice to screw up other people's lives, and that is EXACTLY the choice people make on their way down an addicts life style.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-27-2017).]
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:People should not have a choice to screw up other people's lives, and that is EXACTLY the choice people make on their way down an addicts life style.
Admittedly, you are correct in this statement and that's why I say they get one shot at revival and that's it. OD a second time and you're on your own.
Edited: If, it were up to me. ------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-27-2017).]
Admittedly, you are correct in this statement and that's why I say they get one shot at revival and that's it. OD a second time and you're on your own.
Edited: If, it were up to me.
With some very rare and practical exceptions, I agree.
It's also worth noting that drug and alcohol abusers did NOT begin down the path to self destruction without at least a modicum of knowledge of the dangers.
Awareness of what substance abuse is, and does, is virtually universal, at least here developed countries with even a minimal level of public education.
The simple fact is that these abusers *choose* to embark down that path anyway.
Providing them a "safety net" of being resuscitated from their own actions time and time again is simply enabling their behavior at the expense of everyone else.
The surest way to stop undesirable behaviors is to make certain that there are *consequences* for those behaviors and that the consequences are both definite and invariable.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 10-27-2017).]
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I understand. But if it were my child I would want to save them. I assume other people don't want to dispose of family like soiled trash?
.
Good you save them, maybe if family gave a phuck long before they got to the point of o/d ing , it be a non-issue, but the family (parents) are to tied up worrying about their social life to bother till, OMG little Jimmie od'ed I didn't see it.. bla bla bla.. Family members want others to save them, if they gave a **** for years it might have been stopped or at least they can claim they tried.. nope they turn a blind eye to it all, then when it hits home, get on soapbox stating we need to do more about the o/d issue.. to "save others" From going through what they did.. Only reason they do it is to mask the lack of giving a crap while it was going on in their family.. and to put the idea in peoples heads that they "cared, and tried"
Good you save them, maybe if family gave a phuck long before they got to the point of o/d ing , it be a non-issue, but the family (parents) are to tied up worrying about their social life to bother till, OMG little Jimmie od'ed I didn't see it.. bla bla bla.. Family members want others to save them, if they gave a **** for years it might have been stopped or at least they can claim they tried.. nope they turn a blind eye to it all, then when it hits home, get on soapbox stating we need to do more about the o/d issue.. to "save others" From going through what they did.. Only reason they do it is to mask the lack of giving a crap while it was going on in their family.. and to put the idea in peoples heads that they "cared, and tried"
Or, none of that happens and the kids still fail.
I know plenty of people who came out of the background you are describing who are fine upstanding citizens and, as in my own case, people who came out of normal situations who fail miserably.
I know plenty of people who came out of the background you are describing who are fine upstanding citizens and, as in my own case, people who came out of normal situations who fail miserably.
Just saying, it's not an either or thing.
I agree, one size does not fit all. I am sure that there are many families who gave up on addicts and wanted the drama to go away.
Where is Threedog? I am amazed he has not used the race card yet. But I guess old habits die hard, he left the thread without a grasp on understanding.
But I guess old habits die hard, he left the thread without a grasp on understanding.
My guess is, he has either realized he won't change some (our/my) attitudes or, he just can't bring himself to admit his errors in judgement.
BTW, told both my son and daughter that it is impossible to get through college with out a huge debt according to Threedog. They both grinned and proudly stated that it wasn't easy but, possible if a person is unwilling to put themselves in debt and willing to work their asses off.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
I know plenty of people who came out of the background you are describing who are fine upstanding citizens and, as in my own case, people who came out of normal situations who fail miserably.
Just saying, it's not an either or thing.
Your opinion. fact people can put on a really good act out in public about family. When they are in fact totally dysfunctional, and the most uncaring bunch going..
Cause lets be honest a loving ,caring, close family can tell when someone is using drugs or tipping a bottle to much.. You notice the changes, you see it..
There is true families and then there are those that put on an act.. I think you are confused on what A true loving /caring family unit is..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 10-28-2017).]
My guess is, he has either realized he won't change some (our/my) attitudes or, he just can't bring himself to admit his errors in judgement.
BTW, told both my son and daughter that it is impossible to get through college with out a huge debt according to Threedog. They both grinned and proudly stated that it wasn't easy but, possible if a person is unwilling to put themselves in debt and willing to work their asses off.
Good for them, that is what I call a good work ethic. They truly do deserve some credit.
Im in total agreement with Blackrams. Druggies who overdose when willingly taking drugs should have their lives left up to God. If they die, they die. If they survive, maybe (maybe not) learn their lesson. Its not up to medics/police/taxpayers to revive you. My living will also says Do Not Resuscitate.
Failure to accept that a person is responsible for their own actions and decisions is only acceptable until you're on the receiving end of someone else's bad decision. 
Take the percentages (math) and play them. You will seldom lose. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
