Originally posted by theBDub: I think what you don't give people enough credit for in general, is that they hold views that disagree with your own that weren't influenced by propaganda. There are people that use reason, logic, and open minds to reach the exact opposite of your beliefs. Read up on psychology and the study of human behavior and you will see this. The way we reason in general is flawed. We are influenced by biases that are formed throughout our entire lives, which does play into what conclusions they (and you and I) draw, but those biases aren't just from propaganda. ....
Your end point however cant be that everyone is correct. One exercise is to try and think objectively about something. Plus I don't think anyone is saying 100% of what any one person thinks is 100% due to propaganda. Read what 82ta wrote, it was specific and clear.
The whole kneeling thing, like I mentioned before is misunderstood all around and I don't think its even worth commenting on much for that reason. There are much more important things tied up in this conversation.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-10-2017).]
Because of the reputation for being liberal, more liberals want to be in higher academia. Because more liberals are in higher academia, they interact more closely and on a more frequent basis with others that think like themselves. They then become more extreme in their views over time due to groupshift. As groupshift occurs and they become increasingly extreme, being just partially liberal isn't normal, it would be seen as conservative. So more and more, centrists and conservatives don't fit in, and liberals continue to go into higher academia. As they come in, they are more radical already than their predecessors due to the normalizing shifting. Then they themselves participate in groupshift over time, and it all starts again.
Your end point however cant be that everyone is correct. One exercise is to try and think objectively about something. Plus I don't think anyone is saying 100% of what any one person thinks is 100% due to propaganda. Read what 82ta wrote, it was specific and clear.
The whole kneeling thing, like I mentioned before is misunderstood all around and I don't think its even worth commenting on much for that reason. There are much more important things tied up in this conversation.
It's not that everyone is correct. It's to take a step back from your own beliefs, see things from another's perspective, find any validities that may be in there, then incorporate those into your own beliefs.
I don't mean that objective truth doesn't exist. Only that I think it's important to recognize these people hold these beliefs without need for any propaganda. The conspiracy theory about the communists wanting to take down the NFL by kneeling at the national anthem doesn't take into account that it doesn't take any propaganda to believe these things. Kaepernick's point is quite reasonable, in fact.
It's not that everyone is correct. It's to take a step back from your own beliefs, see things from another's perspective, find any validities that may be in there, then incorporate those into your own beliefs.
I don't mean that objective truth doesn't exist. Only that I think it's important to recognize these people hold these beliefs without need for any propaganda. The conspiracy theory about the communists wanting to take down the NFL by kneeling at the national anthem doesn't take into account that it doesn't take any propaganda to believe these things. Kaepernick's point is quite reasonable, in fact.
I agree its important to see things from others perspectives, or better yet an objective one. It doesn't mean you don't ever reach conclusions though, there are details and there are principles, etc.
"Without need for" is sort of irrelevant right? You mean you determined that they came up with their viewpoint without being influenced? You just said we are all influenced. How did they get to what they believe? Looking for equality of outcome? Looking for fairness? Looking to even out wealth and power? What do they have to do to get there, remove freedom?
I'm speaking about liberal and leftist viewpoints, important ones as depicted in the vids I have been sharing.Not the kneeling thing. Maybe this is so much specifically about kneeling that I should stop commenting, that contaminates most real points other than free speech.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-10-2017).]
It's not that everyone is correct. It's to take a step back from your own beliefs, see things from another's perspective, find any validities that may be in there, then incorporate those into your own beliefs.
I don't mean that objective truth doesn't exist. Only that I think it's important to recognize these people hold these beliefs without need for any propaganda. The conspiracy theory about the communists wanting to take down the NFL by kneeling at the national anthem doesn't take into account that it doesn't take any propaganda to believe these things. Kaepernick's point is quite reasonable, in fact.
So in other words , You want people to give up their belief's and take on the liberal b/s as the new order.. Sorry not going to happen, My belief is if you work hard you can be anything in this country. And those tools taking a knee know this or they not be pro game/spots players making millions, We'd not have had a black or half black leader for 8 years. I reject all their b/s because many whites all through history have helped minorities and they are calling for the death of all whites.. And not respecting the flag and those that served under it , that allow them to have the freedoms they have, any other country they be locked up and never seen again for rioting and destroying cities and such.. WE DON'T LIVE UNDER MOB RULE!!!!!! You can't claim you're protesting an issue when you only protest it when it fits a agenda/narrative.. police shooting blacks, yet when it's a black cop they don't protest or riot only if it's a latino(white) or white one.. YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE THAT THIS IS JUST THE NEXT STEP IN THE RACE BAITERS HATE ,AND MANY FOLLOW IT LIKE SHEEP.. Sorry you fight with a cop and try to take his/her gun you are going to get shot.. YOU EARNED it with your actions. A kid gets shot because he points what looks like a gun in a gang infested hood, and the cop doesn't wait to see if it is a gang banger with a real gun or not. and people loose there minds, yet won't talk about the crime and gang issues that caused the problems in the first place.. They won't help clean up the trash that causes their 'hood to be a ghetto, and they WILL SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATTER and why these hoods have a high black on black crime and killing rate, but they expect the cops that have to deal with these animals 24/7/365 to wait till they get shot at and harmed before acting, while the same righteous blacks wouldn't. They pop a cap in the person first, no waiting.. a child gets shot in a drive by and these same protesting blacks didn't see nothing, don't know nuthin. but if a child or teen waved a gun at a cop and got shot they know everything and even without being there saw it all. cut the **** .
Originally posted by theBDub: Because of the reputation for being liberal, more liberals want to be in higher academia.
My, what an interesting statement. What does it mean ? Those that can do, do, those that can't do, teach ? Heh, they also want free college. What would you say the reputation of a conservative is ?
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: Because more liberals are in higher academia, they interact more closely and on a more frequent basis with others that think like themselves.
Hmm. What a waste of higher academia. College used to be a place where people learned to be independent thinkers. You are right though. Not only do they interact more closely and on a more frequent basis with others that think like themselves, they shut down all other thought.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: They then become more extreme in their views over time due to groupshift. As groupshift occurs and they become increasingly extreme, being just partially liberal isn't normal, it would be seen as conservative. So more and more, centrists and conservatives don't fit in, and liberals continue to go into higher academia. As they come in, they are more radical already than their predecessors due to the normalizing shifting. Then they themselves participate in groupshift over time, and it all starts again.
It's a circle.
That makes sense, sort of. Monkey see, monkey do. Yet, liberalism has infected lower academia also. It has also infected journalism, and Hollywood, and now sports and music/TV/movie award shows also.
Make no mistake about it ... liberalism is the usurping of traditional values. As suggested, it is a concerted effort.
Kaepernick didn't kneel because he was brainwashed or even incentivized by some communists. He kneeled because he believes that's the best thing to bring attention to an issue that's important to him. An issue that, even if it's divisive, is an important issue in our country. It didn't happen in a vacuum.
Ok, I'm pretty much going to ignore the rest. But I will respond to this.
Kaepernick didn't kneel because he was concerned about anything. Kaepernick kneeled because he was doing horribly, and was probably going to get traded and / or let go from the team, and he wanted to try to do anything that would hopefully bring attention to him.
But like I should have assumed, I'm wasting my time here...
Ok, I'm pretty much going to ignore the rest. But I will respond to this.
Kaepernick didn't kneel because he was concerned about anything. Kaepernick kneeled because he was doing horribly, and was probably going to get traded and / or let go from the team, and he wanted to try to do anything that would hopefully bring attention to him.
If that is all there was to it, about half of the league's other players would have been kneeling right alongside him. Kaepernick would hardly have stood out (ha ha) from the crowd.
I take Kaepernick's reasons for kneeling at face (ha ha again) value. Whatever he said were his reasons.
Whether that is accurate or not, neither you nor I are in a position to say otherwise, with any honest confidence or assurance.
... is to fight oppression of all kinds globally, through education and social activism.
Education. Globally. Social activism. So, they define oppression as if "hands up don't shoot" actually happened. Proven not to be the case. As if Treyvon Matin was not a thug. Proven not to be the case. As if Freddy Gray was an innocent victim. Proven not to be the case, six times out of six.
My point is, is that the educational system is a tool for the liberals, as is social "justice", and thy want a no borders world. One world rule.
If that is all there was to it, about half of the league's other players would have been kneeling right alongside him. Kaepernick would hardly have stood out (ha ha) from the crowd.
I take Kaepernick's reasons for kneeling at face (ha ha again) value. Whatever he said were his reasons.
Whether that is accurate or not, neither you nor I are in a position to say otherwise, with any honest confidence or assurance.
Why everyone else does / did it, and why Kaepernick did it... are two totally different things. Having worked in the NFL for close to a decade, and having hundreds of contacts at numerous teams, it's common-knowledge that he was doing it to bring attention to him, in an effort to hopefully halt him from being let go / traded. It's like when you have a poor performing employee, and then they fake a medical condition and / or start to say you're discriminating against them... and then HR is like... crap, we'll need to keep him.
Why everyone else did it is entirely because they believed him.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Ok, I'm pretty much going to ignore the rest. But I will respond to this.
Kaepernick didn't kneel because he was concerned about anything. Kaepernick kneeled because he was doing horribly, and was probably going to get traded and / or let go from the team, and he wanted to try to do anything that would hopefully bring attention to him.
But like I should have assumed, I'm wasting my time here...
I thought he kneeled because the communists directed him to, in a concerted effort to bring down the NFL? Isn't that what you implied? Now it is just because he wanted attention--any attention?
My, what an interesting statement. What does it mean ? Those that can do, do, those that can't do, teach ? Heh, they also want free college. What would you say the reputation of a conservative is ?
Hmm. What a waste of higher academia. College used to be a place where people learned to be independent thinkers. You are right though. Not only do they interact more closely and on a more frequent basis with others that think like themselves, they shut down all other thought.
That makes sense, sort of. Monkey see, monkey do. Yet, liberalism has infected lower academia also. It has also infected journalism, and Hollywood, and now sports and music/TV/movie award shows also.
Make no mistake about it ... liberalism is the usurping of traditional values. As suggested, it is a concerted effort..
I would not say that those that can't do, teach. But out of the general population of people who would like to teach, more liberals will actually pursue that, because of the workplace politics.
And as far as how that reflects on academia... I would say it is basically the same as many other industries. Similar trends can be found with economists, engineers, many trades... but leaning right. And the trends you noted with those industries of journalism, Hollywood, etc. leaning left. There are, of course, industries agnostic to politics.
I think we notice the industries on the left more because they tend to be in the public eye more. So we think there is a coordinated effort to destroy American values, but that's not their goal. Their goal is to implement what their values are... which might be different than yours. That doesn't make them more or less evil. Their values are just different than yours.
If someone on the left were to look at this forum, they would say there was a concerted effort by conservatives to block progress. It's just a different way of saying the same thing. You think they're taking down American values. They think you're locked in the past and blocking American values. It's important to take a step back and understand that.
I agree its important to see things from others perspectives, or better yet an objective one. It doesn't mean you don't ever reach conclusions though, there are details and there are principles, etc.
"Without need for" is sort of irrelevant right? You mean you determined that they came up with their viewpoint without being influenced? You just said we are all influenced. How did they get to what they believe? Looking for equality of outcome? Looking for fairness? Looking to even out wealth and power? What do they have to do to get there, remove freedom?
I'm speaking about liberal and leftist viewpoints, important ones as depicted in the vids I have been sharing.Not the kneeling thing. Maybe this is so much specifically about kneeling that I should stop commenting, that contaminates most real points other than free speech.
Without need for is relevant in that it allows for a much simpler answer. I'm not arguing against Kaepernick believing in things that the left believes in. I am arguing against him being some agent of communism kneeling to take down American values. Is it possible? Sure. But Todd's statements read like he has a smoking gun, because all of this logic falls into place. But his reasoning leaves much to be desired when you understand that people just think differently.
I would not say that those that can't do, teach. But out of the general population of people who would like to teach, more liberals will actually pursue that, because of the workplace politics.
And as far as how that reflects on academia... I would say it is basically the same as many other industries. Similar trends can be found with economists, engineers, many trades... but leaning right. And the trends you noted with those industries of journalism, Hollywood, etc. leaning left. There are, of course, industries agnostic to politics.
I think we notice the industries on the left more because they tend to be in the public eye more. So we think there is a coordinated effort to destroy American values, but that's not their goal. Their goal is to implement what their values are... which might be different than yours. That doesn't make them more or less evil. Their values are just different than yours.
If someone on the left were to look at this forum, they would say there was a concerted effort by conservatives to block progress. It's just a different way of saying the same thing. You think they're taking down American values. They think you're locked in the past and blocking American values. It's important to take a step back and understand that.
It is completely unsurprising to know that is the limit of your understanding of both liberalism and conservatism.
I thought he kneeled because the communists directed him to, in a concerted effort to bring down the NFL? Isn't that what you implied? Now it is just because he wanted attention--any attention?
The guy works for the NFL, and this is your response?
You are brainwashed dude. Your limited experiences in life allow you to be jaded with incorrect information. Good luck to you.
Edit: Reread your words. "I think" is in a lot of paragraphs.
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 11-12-2017).]
Ok, I'll help you this one time. After that you can do your own searching.
But first, a couple of tips.
1 - Don't use Google for searching as they have been proven to suppress info that runs contrary to their political opinions. Plus they are not above sharing your search parameters with, well, everyone. Instead use Duck Duck Go or Startpage.
2 - Try a few different phrasings before deciding that your search results were fruitless. In this case, using "BLM" rather than "Black Lives Matter" returns pages on info on the (B)ureau of (L)and (M)anagement.
So anyhow, a proper search brought up this article -
First of all I wanted to thank you for posting what you're looking at to reach the conclusion that you did. I try to create meaningful conversation in whatever medium I'm in and often I find people resistant to sharing directly the information they are pulling from when their view is being challenged. This makes it a lot harder to discuss in good faith. Secondly I want to apologize for the delayed response. Things got really busy at work and I didn't really have the energy to fully devote to the information you provided. On the subject of the search, I paraphrased a bit and didn't include every permutation of the search that I did, but thanks for the duckduckgo link anyway.
Now on to the response to your post. I'm going to go ahead and say that if the minds behind BLM and other similar groups attempted to amass power and start a cultural/racial genocide in the manner that the Nazi party did that will end very poorly for them. I appreciate the Chamberlain reference, but I feel that it's not quite a direct comparison to the goals of BLM. If you'd really like to do a thorough comparison here that would likely be better done in either another thread or in PMs so that this thread doesn't get crowded with that info.
There's a point about the search that I wanted to bring up, specifically why I didn't find that as a result for what I was trying to find. In your original comment you said the following.
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Originally posted by RayOtton:
Since BLM's stated goal is overturning the Constitution do you think that validating their message now is going to change that goal in ten years? If you do, search "Neville Chamberlain" and then get back to us.
Bolded and underlined the section to call attention to the terminology there as you said that it was their "stated" goal. I did not find a reference to that organization making the statement that overturning the Constitution is their goal. The article that you linked had good information and it was good to see some excellent journalism on display (seriously that was an engaging read and I look forward to reading more from the author). But, it still did not reach the verdict that you claimed. The closest thing that I saw to your proclamation of their goal was in the paragraph that started with "BLM proclaims the goal of a “radical transformation of American democracy” and the “radical organization and self-determination of our communities.”" and the following paragraphs. The article's quote leaves out a section of the original quote.
"We demand, and are fighting every day for, a radical transformation of American democracy where all black lives are valued. We expect that our elected officials will stop pacifying and take us seriously."
That full quote puts into context the subject of what they were talking about, which again circled back to their common complaint of the treatment of black people in this country. The subject matter snippets that the article pulls about their goals for political movement cut short some of the stated information at critical points and in other areas doesn't discuss how they stated to achieve the goal that was mentioned. While they do proclaim to want radical change to the current system, the things they wish to achieve do not require "overturning the Constitution" though I don't think they are likely to achieve much of what they state. Again if you're interested we can have a side conversation to go over individual details about their stated ideologies in full.
Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. It's been eating at me that I haven't had time to respond until now since you gave that link when you didn't have to.
Kaepernick has now filed a grievance with the players union accusing the NFL owners of collusion for him not being on a team now.
I sincerely doubt there was any collusion, he simply isn't worth the trouble..................
When I heard about this I couldn't get on board with it and I still can't. The guy went out on a limb and did something that attracted the kind of attention that the whole league doesn't want to deal with. He should just cut ties and move on. The only possible way this is a problem is if a team or a few of them were interested and they were told by the league that they couldn't hire him, but even then I'm not sure what he's expecting here.
............. While they do proclaim to want radical change to the current system, the things they wish to achieve do not require "overturning the Constitution".........
Originally posted by Tony Kania: The guy works for the NFL, and this is your response?
You are brainwashed dude. Your limited experiences in life allow you to be jaded with incorrect information. Good luck to you.
Edit: Reread your words. "I think" is in a lot of paragraphs.
I asked Todd those questions because he has presented two different theories for why Kaepernick kneeled, and both theories were presented as fact because of Todd's experience. I will let Todd's words speak for himself, emphasis mine:
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
But put that aside for a minute. There has been a long-driven goal by the "extreme" side of the Democrat party, to destroy the NFL. We used to talk about this regularly at NFL meetings (without the owners), and it's well understood. So we're clear, we're talking about the far-left... the Communist / extremely Socialist side of the Democrat party. The ones where their views change on the direction of the wind, who are offended by everything.
The NFL exemplifies the stereotypes that they abhor about America: - Wealth / Capitalism - Patriotism - Machismo / Gender-Roles (Cheerleaders and Players) - Meritocracy
The alt-left has waged a war on the NFL for almost a decade now by exacerbating issues: - Domestic Violence (there is a smaller % domestic violence than society as a whole) - Brain Injuries (why focus on NFL? What about boxing? And who goes into the NFL thinking they're not going to get injured?) - Tax Exempt Status (Democrats have long fought (and won) to get rid of it.) - Federal Tax Benefits (0% interest bonds, etc)
... and now, the American flag. Ratings have been going down year-after-year as younger and younger parents are averse to allowing their children join football teams because it's too dangerous or it goes against their views as a "concerned citizen."
I would say that both Republicans AND Democrats were "trolled" here by the Alt-Left.
Let us not mistake for a minute, that Colin Kaepernick was an avowed Communist, and while switching off between Che Guevarra and Fidel Castro shirts during his press conferences, expressed his praise for Fidel.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Ok, I'm pretty much going to ignore the rest. But I will respond to this.
Kaepernick didn't kneel because he was concerned about anything. Kaepernick kneeled because he was doing horribly, and was probably going to get traded and / or let go from the team, and he wanted to try to do anything that would hopefully bring attention to him.
But like I should have assumed, I'm wasting my time here...
Sadly many support that clowns kneel'n protest without any knowledge of the subject because , well he is black and they are black.. So, yo, gotta have a brothers back.. I know I'm again showing I'm not black enough, I'm ok with that.
I thought he kneeled because the communists directed him to, in a concerted effort to bring down the NFL? Isn't that what you implied? Now it is just because he wanted attention--any attention?
Truly dude, you are intellectually dishonest, you really are. You know clearly what I'm saying and you're trying to draw conflicting answers against parallels.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I asked Todd those questions because he has presented two different theories for why Kaepernick kneeled, and both theories were presented as fact because of Todd's experience. I will let Todd's words speak for himself, emphasis mine:
Why Kaepernick did it... was because he was going to lose his job, and wanted the attention.
He IS an avowed Communist, but honestly doesn't have a clue what that even means, like most young people (such as yourself). It was for show, to get attention, and it succeeded.
WHY HE WAS SUCCESSFUL was because the media ate it up, pushed it, and made him a hero. Most of the players who are also kneeling have taken it up thinking that it was well intentioned, and noble.
I appreciate you quoting it again, so that others may read what I said, again... because it's important.
Let's quote it again:
The alt-left has waged a war on the NFL for almost a decade now by exacerbating issues: - Domestic Violence (there is a smaller % domestic violence than society as a whole) - Brain Injuries (why focus on NFL? What about boxing? And who goes into the NFL thinking they're not going to get injured?) - Tax Exempt Status (Democrats have long fought (and won) to get rid of it.) - Federal Tax Benefits (0% interest bonds, etc) - Now the anthem protests
The NFL stands for everything that the modern liberal detests... everything, and they want badly to eliminate it because it's been a bastion of American culture, and continues to push these ideals that are detrimental to a "victim" society.
Both sides were trolled... because now neither Democrats or Republicans really watch NFL anymore except for die-hard fans... ratings continue to fall, and while I don't think the NFL will disappear any time soon... it'll never get back the viewership that it's lost. Young people are not interested in football anymore.
The alt-left ideology is to destroy anything in America that persists a type of cultural greatness above others, particularly anything that supports the idea of meritocracy.
Why Kaepernick did it... was because he was going to lose his job, and wanted the attention.
He IS an avowed Communist, but honestly doesn't have a clue what that even means, like most young people (such as yourself). It was for show, to get attention, and it succeeded.
WHY HE WAS SUCCESSFUL was because the media ate it up, pushed it, and made him a hero. Most of the players who are also kneeling have taken it up thinking that it was well intentioned, and noble.
I appreciate you quoting it again, so that others may read what I said, again... because it's important.
Let's quote it again:
The alt-left has waged a war on the NFL for almost a decade now by exacerbating issues: - Domestic Violence (there is a smaller % domestic violence than society as a whole) - Brain Injuries (why focus on NFL? What about boxing? And who goes into the NFL thinking they're not going to get injured?) - Tax Exempt Status (Democrats have long fought (and won) to get rid of it.) - Federal Tax Benefits (0% interest bonds, etc) - Now the anthem protests
The NFL stands for everything that the modern liberal detests... everything, and they want badly to eliminate it because it's been a bastion of American culture, and continues to push these ideals that are detrimental to a "victim" society.
Both sides were trolled... because now neither Democrats or Republicans really watch NFL anymore except for die-hard fans... ratings continue to fall, and while I don't think the NFL will disappear any time soon... it'll never get back the viewership that it's lost. Young people are not interested in football anymore.
The alt-left ideology is to destroy anything in America that persists a type of cultural greatness above others, particularly anything that supports the idea of meritocracy.
You left out that the liberals hate football because it shows there are winners and losers, and to the looney left liberals, everyone much get prize.. no winners and no losers.. And it shows testosterone a huge issue to the limp twist liberals.
Truly dude, you are intellectually dishonest, you really are. You know clearly what I'm saying and you're trying to draw conflicting answers against parallels.
I am not. You made that original post saying that this was a plot to destroy the NFL by the alt-left, the Communists, and Kaepernick is a Communist. Then you said he kneeled because he was performing poorly and wanted attention. Those two things aren't the same.
Now you make a distinction: Kaepernick kneeled for the attention. The others pushed the narrative because they're Communists.
Okay, so why did you say in your original post, right in the middle of explaining this theory, that Kaepernick was a Communist? What did that have to do with your theory, if he was just kneeling for attention?
Kaepernick kneeled because it was a platform he had access to in order to push his beliefs out. At first, he sat. There was little attention given to it. Still, he sat. People started noticing. He met with a marine who said kneeling would show more respect and still get his message across. Ever since, he has kneeled.
Let me be clear: All of those are what is known based on statements given by many involved. You don't have to agree with those statements, but if you don't, you are theorizing outside of what has been stated by those involved.
Why did the media push it? Was it to destroy the NFL? Or, was it because the topic of the protest resonates with a lot of people? We can go back and forth all day on those theories, but I know my thoughts on them, and have stated my support for the reasons for the protest in this thread.
I have also stated multiple times in this thread that I don't care what the owners do with Kaepernick. If nobody wants him, that's just fine. I don't care if sponsors pull their advertisements. I don't care if viewers quit watching. I'm all for freedom and exercising those rights. Just don't pretend like what he's doing is the worst thing ever. America has been asking for the BLM crowd to stop destroying cities and to protest peacefully. Kaepernick protested peacefully.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
These players can be fired, and I'm all for the freedom of the owners to do that, too. I'm all about freedom.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
And I respect the right of their bosses to fire them. If their bosses support them, then that's that. We've seen a few owners that stand by their players. Apparently they believe their employees are doing just fine.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I've said the whole time that the NFL has every right to fire their employees over kneeling. So far, the coaches haven't done anything. The owners haven't. But I've still said they have the right.
I also believe they have the right to fire this person for not being with the team, for going out and standing. Why? Because I believe employment is not a right. It's an agreement between employer and employee.
I am consistent with this belief.
I have been consistent. My belief on this is fair. It is fine for players to kneel as a form of protest. It is fine for owners to fire players for that same thing. Somehow, this pretty benign belief in freedom has resulted in a huge uproar on this thread.
Again, I will ask:
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
What form of protest is more peaceful than a kneeling of the knee?
You are the only one here that is making this thread a mountain out of a mole hill. Can you really not see that? You are so obsessed with what you believe that 82-T/A is saying, that you are lost in your very own misunderstanding. Please listen to the many of us here that are calmly telling you this. It is like watching a train wreck my good man.
You even misunderstood me a few posts back...
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I asked Todd those questions because he has presented two different theories for why Kaepernick kneeled, and both theories were presented as fact because of Todd's experience.
... and both are theories presented on an internet forum. Theories that are being thrown around for a very long time now. Both relevant.
I am not. You made that original post saying that this was a plot to destroy the NFL by the alt-left, the Communists, and Kaepernick is a Communist. Then you said he kneeled because he was performing poorly and wanted attention. Those two things aren't the same.
Now you make a distinction: Kaepernick kneeled for the attention. The others pushed the narrative because they're Communists.
Okay, so why did you say in your original post, right in the middle of explaining this theory, that Kaepernick was a Communist? What did that have to do with your theory, if he was just kneeling for attention?
Kaepernick kneeled because it was a platform he had access to in order to push his beliefs out. At first, he sat. There was little attention given to it. Still, he sat. People started noticing. He met with a marine who said kneeling would show more respect and still get his message across. Ever since, he has kneeled.
Let me be clear: All of those are what is known based on statements given by many involved. You don't have to agree with those statements, but if you don't, you are theorizing outside of what has been stated by those involved.
Why did the media push it? Was it to destroy the NFL? Or, was it because the topic of the protest resonates with a lot of people? We can go back and forth all day on those theories, but I know my thoughts on them, and have stated my support for the reasons for the protest in this thread.
I have also stated multiple times in this thread that I don't care what the owners do with Kaepernick. If nobody wants him, that's just fine. I don't care if sponsors pull their advertisements. I don't care if viewers quit watching. I'm all for freedom and exercising those rights. Just don't pretend like what he's doing is the worst thing ever. America has been asking for the BLM crowd to stop destroying cities and to protest peacefully. Kaepernick protested peacefully.
Dude... you are all over the place, and no, nothing I'm saying is conflicting, I have no idea what you're doing, or why you're doing it. Let me be really clear.
- Communists pushed propaganda all over the world while we pushed Democracy. - alt-leftism (the new term for it), is as a result of propaganda that was pushed by Communism decades over decades. - alt-left people actually believe what they push, they are pawns in a flawed belief system. - Kaepernick is an idiot, he was failing and was going to get traded and / or dumped, so he protested the anthem to bring attention to himself. - Kaepernick is ALSO a Communist by virtue of the same reason why idiots all over NYC and California wear Che Guevarra shirts. They don't know any better. - The media, who is a big fan of Democrats, anything radical leftist, was only too happy to make a hero / martyr out of him. - Lots of other players are now doing it, and most of them actually believe they're doing it for good reason, (which is stupid).
Can I not be more clear? You're really going all over the place with this.
... and both are theories presented on an internet forum. Theories that are being thrown around for a very long time now. Both relevant.
Relax a bit...
Most of this forum agrees with each other on almost every topic. So yeah, when one or two people disagree with the lion share of the posters, it would appear those people make mole hills. I assure you, disagreeing with the posters doesn't mean I can't see reason.
I just disagree.
And relax? Lol. Ever wonder why I don't post as often as I used to? It's because this forum means so little to me anymore that I don't care to check in. I promise, this conversation is causing me no grief. Thanks for the concern, though.
Dude... you are all over the place, and no, nothing I'm saying is conflicting, I have no idea what you're doing, or why you're doing it. Let me be really clear.
- Communists pushed propaganda all over the world while we pushed Democracy. - alt-leftism (the new term for it), is as a result of propaganda that was pushed by Communism decades over decades. - alt-left people actually believe what they push, they are pawns in a flawed belief system. - Kaepernick is an idiot, he was failing and was going to get traded and / or dumped, so he protested the anthem to bring attention to himself. - Kaepernick is ALSO a Communist by virtue of the same reason why idiots all over NYC and California wear Che Guevarra shirts. They don't know any better. - The media, who is a big fan of Democrats, anything radical leftist, was only too happy to make a hero / martyr out of him. - Lots of other players are now doing it, and most of them actually believe they're doing it for good reason, (which is stupid).
Can I not be more clear? You're really going all over the place with this.
This is more clear! However, I still believe the kneels are being done for good reasons. Reasons that I have stated in this thread. And reasons that have... nothing to do with communism or propaganda from the left.
Todd, sometimes people will disagree with you and they aren't stupid or misinformed. Sometimes a lot of people will disagree with you, and they aren't brainwashed.
My beliefs come from a libertarian philosophy of fairness and rights for all. I don't think I could get any less communist. But I'm sure you think I think this way because I grew up in a propaganda machine. And how could I ever disprove that?
Originally posted by theBDub: What form of protest is more peaceful than a kneeling of the knee?
I have stated many times how I feel about this protest and won't hide behind any side comments.
I feel that kneeling during the National Anthem shows a huge disrespect to all those who have fought and died for this country. It really doesn't matter what the intent of originator was, it was perceived as something else. My perspective is all that matters when it comes to what I watch on TV.
I don't remember anyone saying he couldn't protest in this manner but, just because you can, doesn't mean you should and most surely doesn't suggest that others are going to support such a demonstration for the same reasons. While you may ask what's more peaceful, I'm asking what would the protestors could have done to have won more support versus being such a divisive protest. What could Kaeperneck have done that would have accomplished good versus bad instead? What could all of those entertainers have done with their "star" power, money and other resources to have won support from the average American citizen.
I don't have that answer but, I do recognize that this "peaceful" protest has done nothing to make the original situation different and most surely has not won the hearts and minds of the those who were watching the NFL games. TV ratings and smaller revenues pretty much speak for that. Admittedly, there are a few "race" based organizations who are supporting the original QB to help him get a job. (A waste of time IMHO, he's not that good.) When something doesn't give the desired result, then maybe one should consider an alternative method of achieving the stated goal. Peaceful, the protest may have been but, did it achieve anything? ------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-14-2017).]
And relax? Lol. Ever wonder why I don't post as often as I used to? It's because this forum means so little to me anymore that I don't care to check in. I promise, this conversation is causing me no grief. Thanks for the concern, though.
Your 41 posts in this thread say different.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 11-14-2017).]
This is more clear! However, I still believe the kneels are being done for good reasons. Reasons that I have stated in this thread. And reasons that have... nothing to do with communism or propaganda from the left.
Todd, sometimes people will disagree with you and they aren't stupid or misinformed. Sometimes a lot of people will disagree with you, and they aren't brainwashed.
My beliefs come from a libertarian philosophy of fairness and rights for all. I don't think I could get any less communist. But I'm sure you think I think this way because I grew up in a propaganda machine. And how could I ever disprove that?
SORRY AND THIS IS GOING TO BE RUFF AND COURSE AND WITHOUT TACT !!!!!!!!! PROTESTING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM IS A SLAP IN THE FACE OF EVERY AMERICAN THAT SERVED UNDER THE FLAG OF THIS COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS A SLAP IN THE FACE TO THOSE THAT DIED FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDON, A SLAP IN THE FACE OF THEIR FAMILIES THAT DID WITHOUT WHILE THOSE SERVING WERE NOT PROVIDING FOR THE FAMILY, IT IS A SLAP IN THE FACE TO EVERY VET STILL ALIVE, AND A SLAP IN THE FACE TO THOSE SERVING NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THESE IGNORANT BASTARDSA DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE PISSING ON THE GRAVES/FAMILYS/AND VETS OF BLACKS THAT SERVED, THEY ARE PISSING ON EVERYONE THAT LOVES THIS COUNTRY!! ANYONE THAT SUPPORTS THESE IGNORANT BASTARDSA NEED TO MOVE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.. WANT TO PROTEST THE POLICE TAKE A KNEE IN FRONT OF A POLICE BARRACKS . NOT THE NATIONAL ANTHEM..
YOU ARE AS BAD AS THEM AS YOU ARE SUPPORTING THIS . TAKING A NATIONAL PRIDE SYMBOL AND LINKING IN TO POLICE BIAS (FAKE) AND EVERY OTHER WHY ME CAUSE.. NO ONE CAN TELL ANYONE HOW THE NATIONAL ANTHEM IS THE CAUSE OF THEIR CLAIMED PROBLEMS NO ONE.. THE DOOR ISN'T LOCKED DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY, MOVE, DON'T LIKE THAT THE AREAS BLACKS LIVE IN ARE CRIME INFESTED GHETTO'S FIX IT.. STOP BLAMING EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING FOR PROBLEMS CAUSED BY THEIR OWN, THE EVIL WHITE MAN DIDN'T MAKE THE GHETTO'S LOOK LIKE A WAR ZONE AND AS DEADLY AS ONE.. BLACKS ARE DOING THAT.. BUT THAT REQUIRE LOOKING AT THE MIRROR AND ADMITTING THEY ARE THE PROBLEM AND THEY NEED TO CHANGE IT NOT BLAME EVERYONE ELSE.. IF YOU HATE THE COUNTRY AND THE SYMBOLS OF IT GET THE PHCK OUT GO TO AFRICA DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YA WHERE THE GOOD LORD SPLIT YA ON THE WAY OUT.. ------------------ No news , Is good news, With Garry Ganue
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 11-14-2017).]
