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Technology adoption curve by Wichita
Started on: 09-10-2017 10:39 PM
Replies: 133 (1300 views)
Last post by: jmbishop on 09-26-2017 03:39 PM
jmbishop
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Report this Post09-18-2017 07:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:

Hmmmmmm, still no answer to my questions.

Sorry but it's all pixie dust, rainbows and unicorn farts until the loss of revenue for road maintenance is figured out..................................FAIRLY and WITHOUT FURTHER INTRUSION IN OUR LIVES.


I answered your question, you're just too stupid to comprehend it apparently.
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Report this Post09-18-2017 07:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jmbishop

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quote
Originally posted by Keel:


Affordable.. I don't call a subcompact car, that the sticker starts at mid to high 30's affordable.. same size Honda start at 16k ..
basicly a 20k difference.

at 2.39 a gallon you get 8368.20 gallons. and at a Honda getting 34 mpg (they tend to do better)
you'd have to drive the Honda 284518 thousand miles to use that amount of fuel..
affordable is um.. not the word I'd use..
Sorry I don't call cars with a 40-65mile range comparable to a sub compact gas car..

I never said the leaf was affordable however in my case it was under $10k with 30 thousand miles on it. I'm talking about the 35k Tesla, if nissan hopes to compete, the Leaf is going to need much better range or a big price drop.

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 12-12-2017).]

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Report this Post09-18-2017 07:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KeelSend a Private Message to KeelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

I never said the leaf was affordable however in my case it was under $10k with 30 thousand miles on it. I'm taking about the 35k Tesla, if nissan hopes to compete, the Leaf is going to need much better range or a big price drop


***The electric car is finally affordable and economical.
.


It, the tesla starts at 35k and goes up from there for a sub compact car.. it and all electrics are not affordable.. and won't be for a long time..

[This message has been edited by Keel (edited 09-18-2017).]

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Report this Post09-18-2017 07:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


. So, all in all, we've got a ways to go before I see them being used by all of us. When that happens, then the roads will be crap unless a mileage tax or some other fair way to pay for roads is put in place.

I don't think myself or anyone else who's posted here in favor if electric cars has once said we think electric cars will completely replace gas. It probably will be a large part of the market but idea that someone thinks electric cars are the replacement for all gas cars completely seems to be a point only brought up by people who would argue against electric cars.

And like I said, the road taxes are easy, stop the hidden taxes on fuel and make it a real tax paid yearly. A decrease in funds for a short time might be a great thing if it exposed how poorly that tax money is actually spent.

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 09-18-2017).]

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Report this Post09-18-2017 07:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jmbishop

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quote
Originally posted by Keel:


It, the tesla starts at 35k and goes up from there for a sub compact car.. it and all electrics are not affordable.. and won't be for a long time..


Clearly you haven't been paying attention. The Tesla started at 120k, then 75k, now 35k all very fast. With the giga-factory, battery technology had already seen a major improvement in energy density, these improvements will continue to drive down the cost of electric cars and battery powered electronics in general.
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Report this Post09-18-2017 07:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

I answered your question, you're just too stupid to comprehend it apparently.


1 - You didn't answer the questionS.

2 - Cut it out. We have enough vitriol around here without you adding to it just because I challenged your beliefs.

OK?

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Report this Post09-18-2017 07:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you come up with a question that hasn't been answered I'll do my best to answer it for you, but you're going to have to work on those reading comprehension skills.
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RayOtton
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Report this Post09-18-2017 08:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

If you come up with a question that hasn't been answered I'll do my best to answer it for you, but you're going to have to work on those reading comprehension skills.


That's #2. Stop being a dick.

 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:
This method will be monitored by some electronic dodad, right? I mean, they aren't going to leave it to the honor system.
Which means "someone" will know exactly where you are and also how much energy you've consumed.
How long until you get a message on your nav systems that say "Sorry, you've used up your allotted energy for this week, take the bike"?


 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:
How are we going to tax the electricity used to power vehicles?
I mean, if you plug your electric car into your house, the power to recharge it is going to run through your house meter, no?
So what do we do? Add taxes to the house electricity bill?
What about people who either choose to run a gasoline, diesel or hydrogen powered car, all of which go through a separate metering system. Do they pay higher electricity taxes in their homes even though they aren't using any electricity to run their cars? Isn't that a form of double taxation?
Or how about those who choose not to have cars or live in metro areas where they don't need a car but do want electricity in their houses?


I can't comprehend how you've answered these questions.

Please, no #3.

I'm simply asking for clarification, not looking for another O/T shi*storm.

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Report this Post09-18-2017 08:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wouldn't it be easier if you just read my posts?
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Report this Post09-18-2017 08:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KeelSend a Private Message to KeelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

Clearly you haven't been paying attention. The Tesla started at 120k, then 75k, now 35k all very fast. With the giga-factory, battery technology had already seen a major improvement in energy density, these improvements will continue to drive down the cost of electric cars and battery powered electronics in general.


I was taking the model 3, as you claim electrics are now affordable.. I'm paying attention, are you.. ?

the 1st 2 tesla's don't come near the word affordable so I bypassed those.. And stayed with the flow of the conversation ..
Again, if you think a starting price for a sub compact at 35k is affordable you must find a 16-19k Honda downright cheap..
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Report this Post09-18-2017 08:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
35k is a bargain for a fast car that driven 1000 miles a month will cost you around $30 in fuel.

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 09-18-2017).]

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Report this Post09-18-2017 08:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

Wouldn't it be easier if you just read my posts?


Your posts DO NOT answer these specific questions.

If you don't want to address them, fine, but they leave your pro-electirc car arguments without a decent foundation.

Which of course, is our point.

The devil is in the details. It ain't gettin' done with pixie dust and unicorn farts.
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Report this Post09-18-2017 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

I don't think myself or anyone else who's posted here in favor if electric cars has once said we think electric cars will completely replace gas. It probably will be a large part of the market but idea that someone thinks electric cars are the replacement for all gas cars completely seems to be a point only brought up by people who would argue against electric cars.

And like I said, the road taxes are easy, stop the hidden taxes on fuel and make it a real tax paid yearly. A decrease in funds for a short time might be a great thing if it exposed how poorly that tax money is actually spent.


What hidden taxes on fuel.. Most pumps have the fed and state taxes listed on the pumps, I've been to 36 states and have seen it in every one.. hardly hidden..

But I do wish they priced it without the taxes and let the print out receipt show the 10 gallons at 1.589 + fed tax + state tax= _________.. but that waste more ink and paper..


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Report this Post09-18-2017 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:


Your posts DO NOT answer these specific questions.

If you don't want to address them, fine, but they leave your pro-electirc car arguments without a decent foundation.

Which of course, is our point.

The devil is in the details. It ain't gettin' done with pixie dust and unicorn farts.

Nice try
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Report this Post09-18-2017 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

35k is a bargain for a fast car that driven 1000 miles a month will cost you around $30 in fuel.



Didn't someone post above the amount of fuel you can buy with the price gap of electric and gas??
Like all things if you drive it like you stole it the power usage goes up..
but cool story bro...

Edit, yes someone did, you'll have to drive that tesla 284.5 thousand miles to start making the buy in pay for itself, and that doesn't include the electric cost to get to 284.5k So. you don't even break even to a gas sub compack till past 300k miles.. by then it's long since dead..
Just like all the other green energy things by the time it gets to start paying for itself it is time to replace it..

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 09-18-2017).]

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Report this Post09-18-2017 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

Nice try


Thanks, I though so.

Taking the wind out of other people's sails is a specialty of mine.
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Report this Post09-18-2017 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Jut my opinion, but jmbishop is pretty well read and learned on the subject I feel. He is advocating the future whether we like it or not.
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Report this Post09-18-2017 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

And like I said, the road taxes are easy, stop the hidden taxes on fuel and make it a real tax paid yearly. A decrease in funds for a short time might be a great thing if it exposed how poorly that tax money is actually spent.



I'd think we could all agree with that.

Where we disagree is, it won't be easy. Once a tax is instituted, they rarely die.
------------------
Ron

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but …
after a shooting, the problem is the gun....
Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.

I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-18-2017).]

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Report this Post09-18-2017 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:

Jut my opinion, but jmbishop is pretty well read and learned on the subject I feel. He is advocating the future whether we like it or not.


Maybe so but he's the only one calling other members stupid.

Kinda takes oomph out of his argument.
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Wichita
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Report this Post09-18-2017 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They will probably keep the fuel tax going for gas and diesel vehicles and call it a carbon tax or something like that.

Tesla supposedly will announce an electric driven 18-wheeler next month.
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Report this Post09-18-2017 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:

They will probably keep the fuel tax going for gas and diesel vehicles and call it a carbon tax or something like that.



Look I'm not trying to be obtuse here.

If I fill up my gasoline powered car on the way to work, I pay taxes for road maintenance right at the pump.

Now, when I get home, I cook a meal on my electric stove and under the proposals offered by electric car proponents right here in O/T, I have to pay a road maintenance tax on that power use too? Even though I don't drive an electric car?

Am I missing something?
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Report this Post09-18-2017 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:


Look I'm not trying to be obtuse here.

If I fill up my gasoline powered car on the way to work, I pay taxes for road maintenance right at the pump.

Now, when I get home, I cook a meal on my electric stove and under the proposals offered by electric car proponents right here in O/T, I have to pay a road maintenance tax on that power use too? Even though I don't drive an electric car?

Am I missing something?


Yes. No one proposed nor advocated for a road maintenance tax on electricity use in your home.

Next?




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Report this Post09-18-2017 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Again, you miss the point.

For the most part there's one electric meter in a household and all the electricity runs through that meter.

So, if I plug in my electric car I'm going to be paying road taxes through that meter.

However if I turn on my stove to cook something I'm going to be paying road taxes on my steak.

I suppose a separate meter for a dedicated line with a unique attachment device would work but think of the number of meters involved in that scenario.
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Report this Post09-18-2017 11:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is an article for everyone to chew on.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41268513
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Report this Post09-18-2017 11:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:

Again, you miss the point.

For the most part there's one electric meter in a household and all the electricity runs through that meter.

So, if I plug in my electric car I'm going to be paying road taxes through that meter.

However if I turn on my stove to cook something I'm going to be paying road taxes on my steak.

I suppose a separate meter for a dedicated line with a unique attachment device would work but think of the number of meters involved in that scenario.


Never work everyone would bypass using that meter/outlet.. only way that work is if they made the electric vehicle charge on an odd voltage only.. That isn't going to happen..
The member well read on this subject, knows darn well what some of us are asking, and he is bypassing it as he knows the electric vehicle are not affordable, he knows they stole tax dollars to sell them, and are freeloading powering them.. paying zero to the upkeep of the roads,bridges. YET the same crowd will be the first and loudest to complain about the shape of our roads/bridges/etc.. GTFU and STFU..

Electric vehicles are a fraud.. and will be as long as they claim zero emissions.. The fuel I use in my fiero causes emissions, the fuel they use causes emissions, in many cases more than the gas vehicle..
What power plant is power his leaf.. was a GOOD question as then we could know what fuel is power it..
Either way or most likely both everyone will pay dearly for this electric vehicles.. First they will have to upgrade the grid and plants bif=g time, upping everyones electric bill, 2nd they will have to add a tax or "surcharge" to the bill to pay for the roads. This adding to the electric load will require more and more n/g plants, causing n/g cost to go up, and anyone that heats with it will pay extra because of this, I''ll bet they'll add a tax/surcharge to n/g usage also..
He will reply again that I'm posting nothing but strawman comments/opinions. But has NOT explained where and how the dollars lost from lack of paying taxes to upkeep the roads, will be replaced, why because he knows it will be everyone getting nailed not "just" those using electrics or hybrids..
We already seen this.. most "mass transits" get funds from taxes/fees paid by those using roads not the mass transit system.. this green fraud will be no different, only it will be everyone that uses electric power of any kind..
Bet once the freeloading stops the electric goes back to being a nitch. As buying one will not make sense money wise.. If any of what those that have a thing for electrics was true they never need a 7k fed tax credit or any of the state credits, and would have come online having to pay a road fee every year when renewal of the tags..

electrics will always be dirty.. every time you take one type energy to change it to another type, you waste energy.. You waste it, making the ac power, you waste it charging the dc power pack, and waste it using it in the motor to turn a wheel/gear..

Problem with greenies is the back their opinions on science then blow off science that debunks their b/s.

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 09-19-2017).]

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Report this Post09-19-2017 12:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:

Again, you miss the point.

For the most part there's one electric meter in a household and all the electricity runs through that meter.

So, if I plug in my electric car I'm going to be paying road taxes through that meter.

However if I turn on my stove to cook something I'm going to be paying road taxes on my steak.

I suppose a separate meter for a dedicated line with a unique attachment device would work but think of the number of meters involved in that scenario.



No. I think you are missing the point. They will not be taxing for road maintenance at all for electricity used to charge an electric vehicle. I have yet to see any proposal or mention on that.

I think you are greatly confusing yourself that you are equating fuel tax verses how they will tax electric vehicles and the only sensible solution is to tax the miles used on the vehicle.

Not only do I think this is fair, but even fair for gasoline & diesel vehicles as well. If you are trying to equate some sort of tax "fairness", are you saying that those Hybrids and vehicles that get better gas mileage are essentially being tax less per mile than gas guzzlers?

What happens if you idle forever, you are using up fuel without being on the road.

Yes, there is some major concerns about the mileage reporting tax. Some advocate privacy (although we do have to report our income), and there could be a great deal of manipulation and false reporting (many people cheat on their taxes).

Maybe during reup of tags, we have to report the odometer reading, who knows. But that solution would work great for all cars, in my opinion.

If you don't think so, please explain why? Other than the implementation, big brother watching..... Just talking about tax fairness, as that what you are eluding to anyways.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 09-19-2017).]

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Report this Post09-19-2017 12:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
No. I think you are missing the point. They will not be taxing for road maintenance at all for electricity used to charge an electric vehicle. I have yet to see any proposal or mention on that.

I think you are greatly confusing yourself that you are equating fuel tax verses how they will tax electric vehicles and the only sensible solution is to tax the miles used on the vehicle.

Not only do I think this is fair, but even fair for gasoline & diesel vehicles as well. If you are trying to equate some sort of tax "fairness", are you saying that those Hybrids and vehicles that get better gas mileage are essentially being tax less per mile than gas guzzlers?

What happens if you idle forever, you are using up fuel without being on the road.

Yes, there is some major concerns about the mileage reporting tax. Some advocate privacy (although we do have to report our income), and there could be a great deal of manipulation and false reporting (many people cheat on their taxes).

Maybe during reup of tags, we have to report the odometer reading, who knows. But that solution would work great for all cars, in my opinion.

If you don't think so, please explain why? Other than the implementation, big brother watching..... Just talking about tax fairness, as that what you are eluding to anyways.


Cut the crap, if the electric only miles tax was going to happen it have, there will be a mile usage tax but everyone will get hammered with it, not just the electric at full tax and not the hybrids at 1/2 that rate.. it'll be everyone.. you know it we know it, so cut the b/s.. cause again electric are freeloading and your "idea" if was going to happen would have long ago..
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Report this Post09-19-2017 05:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
They will not be taxing for road maintenance at all for electricity used to charge an electric vehicle.


But isn't that the crux of the whole argument?
Electric car owners get a free ride?
Talk about unfair.

 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
I think you are greatly confusing yourself that you are equating fuel tax verses how they will tax electric vehicles and the only sensible solution is to tax the miles used on the vehicle.


While I agree that this is the best solution to the tax problem, it generates other major problems:

1 - Let's not blow off the privacy concerns as a trivial issue.
2 - Voluntary reporting simply won't work, you know, I know, heck the whole world knows it. And mandatory reporting? See #1
3 - All roads become tolls roads. How does that work, both in the area of infrastructure and privacy?


 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
If you don't think so, please explain why? Other than the implementation, big brother watching..... Just talking about tax fairness, as that what you are eluding to anyways.


NO!

Go back through the thread. I brought up ALL those issues and have yet to read any suggestions, ON ANY OF THEM, from proponents that will work within the existing system.

The way opponents see it, proponents wave their hands at these issues as if they are trivial and easily overcome. In fact, you guys are doing just that right here in this thread.

Unfortunately for proponents, the implementation of electric cars would involve major changes to the way our society and infrastructure operate and that makes opponents nervous.

I mean, we just finished up 8 years suffering through the leadership of a guy who promised to fundamentally change the country and THAT didn't work out too well.

And after all that, we get back to the question of where all the electricity is going to come from. I'm no energy expert but it seems to me we use a hell of a lot of energy zipping around in our Fieros that will have to be replaced by a hell of a lot more electric generators.

Coal? - Bad
Natural Gas? Bad
Nuclear? - YIKES!
Ah, renewables! - Great! Except for the whole windless, cloudy day thing and the slathering of great swaths of the country in windmills and solar panels. Oh and storage for those windless cloudy days. Oooooo, Lithium mining - Bad! Very bad!

[This message has been edited by RayOtton (edited 09-19-2017).]

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Report this Post09-19-2017 07:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KeelSend a Private Message to KeelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:


NO!

Go back through the thread. I brought up ALL those issues and have yet to read any suggestions, ON ANY OF THEM, from proponents that will work within the existing system.

The way opponents see it, proponents wave their hands at these issues as if they are trivial and easily overcome. In fact, you guys are doing just that right here in this thread.

Unfortunately for proponents, the implementation of electric cars would involve major changes to the way our society and infrastructure operate and that makes opponents nervous.

I mean, we just finished up 8 years suffering through the leadership of a guy who promised to fundamentally change the country and THAT didn't work out too well.

And after all that, we get back to the question of where all the electricity is going to come from. I'm no energy expert but it seems to me we use a hell of a lot of energy zipping around in our Fieros that will have to be replaced by a hell of a lot more electric generators.

Coal? - Bad
Natural Gas? Bad
Nuclear? - YIKES!
Ah, renewables! - Great! Except for the whole windless, cloudy day thing and the slathering of great swaths of the country in windmills and solar panels. Oh and storage for those windless cloudy days. Oooooo, Lithium mining - Bad! Very bad!



Does NOT matter, as they FEEL good about their "I'm doing my part to save the world" facts don't matter. All that matters to the yuppie dopes is there is NO EMISSIONS out of their vehicle and feelings The pollution is out of sight, So to them it doesn't matter.
But they need a home with 4-5 bedrooms, a den and office, a dinning room, a man cave, and 3-4 bathrooms.

[This message has been edited by Keel (edited 09-19-2017).]

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Wichita
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Report this Post09-19-2017 08:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:


NO!

Go back through the thread. I brought up ALL those issues and have yet to read any suggestions, ON ANY OF THEM, from proponents that will work within the existing system.

The way opponents see it, proponents wave their hands at these issues as if they are trivial and easily overcome. In fact, you guys are doing just that right here in this thread.

Unfortunately for proponents, the implementation of electric cars would involve major changes to the way our society and infrastructure operate and that makes opponents nervous.

I mean, we just finished up 8 years suffering through the leadership of a guy who promised to fundamentally change the country and THAT didn't work out too well.

And after all that, we get back to the question of where all the electricity is going to come from. I'm no energy expert but it seems to me we use a hell of a lot of energy zipping around in our Fieros that will have to be replaced by a hell of a lot more electric generators.

Coal? - Bad
Natural Gas? Bad
Nuclear? - YIKES!
Ah, renewables! - Great! Except for the whole windless, cloudy day thing and the slathering of great swaths of the country in windmills and solar panels. Oh and storage for those windless cloudy days. Oooooo, Lithium mining - Bad! Very bad!



I think we have to get over ourselves about the whole "privacy" concern on mandatory, not voluntarily, odometer reading for tax purposes.

What is the real privacy concerned about then?

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 09-19-2017).]

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Report this Post09-19-2017 08:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:


I think we have to get over ourselves about the whole "privacy" concern on mandatory, not voluntarily, odometer reading for tax purposes.

What is the real privacy concerned about that?


Well here and most bigger populated area's they are requiring the speed pass for tolling, no more humans at tolls to take your money.. Problem here is, they have added receivers to non toll areas all over the state, Want to hazard a guess as to why?
is to track you, and your speed.. Only a matter of time before they use the system to ticket you for speeding as you made it from the last "check point receiver" to this one to fast.. oh, they have cameras also at all these non tolling stations.. They learned from the speed camera and red light camera, but this will be timexdistance, bang your fine in the mail, or better yet added to your transponder/tolling easy pass bill, don't pay it, no tags, no lic to drive, etc.. They already are doing this if you owe the easy pass and have not paid, just like parking tickets/etc.
Why you think they are spending all this money on all this?

Now, think, thugs get the data, and see that you drive down to fla. every nov. till march.. Well now they have data of what homes to target..
The data tells them you drive to work 50 miles away every day at 6am and not home till 6pm.. Now they have the window of when to hit that home..
I don't want big brother collecting data of where I am at any time of the day.. that they can use to fine or tax me, or get hacked and used to steal from me..

And don't reply with the cell phone b/s you can shut them off.. or put in airplane mode, or leave at home or not have one. not so with the transponder for the easy pass system that is now being set up as a national tracking system.

Seems many are blind to the dangers, or can't see past what they are told.. and can't think, why would a state government spend all this cash on a system unless.........................................
------------------
No news ,
Is good news,
With Garry Ganue

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 09-19-2017).]

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RayOtton
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Report this Post09-19-2017 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:


I think we have to get over ourselves about the whole "privacy" concern on mandatory, not voluntarily, odometer reading for tax purposes.

What is the real privacy concerned about that?


And here's the problem. Though I asked you to not trivialize the privacy issue, the first thing you did was attempt to trivialize it by putting it in quotes, as if it were a made up issue.

Much like the millenials with their Alexa microphones you don't see the problem with the loss of privacy and I can't figure out how to impress on you the danger inherent in that attitude.

Oh and Furgy is correct.
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Report this Post09-19-2017 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero2m4FastbackSend a Private Message to Fiero2m4FastbackEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"Electric cars are bad, I just know it guys, my bias trumps logic and reality. Also I'm going to demand you answer a nonsense question and even if you answer it repeatedly, I'm going to keep insisting you didn't."
-SJW mentality

[This message has been edited by Fiero2m4Fastback (edited 09-19-2017).]

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RayOtton
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Report this Post09-19-2017 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your comment needs clarification.

Which side of the debate are you supporting?
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Report this Post09-19-2017 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
clarification

troll account..
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Report this Post09-21-2017 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been following this discussion since its inception and find it interesting that some here who support electric cars think that they will replace internal combustion cars soon and that they will somehow be cheaper than the IC cars. I just ran across this article today about battery powered cars. In the article, there are several things that pop up. First, would be that in the US less than 1% of all cars are electric. Second, selling electric cars is dependent on subsidies from the government.

So for me, I would have to say that while many are well-intentioned, going to mostly electric cars is not going to happen within the next 2 decades. Read the article and decide for yourself.

http://af.reuters.com/artic...caTech/idAFL5N1LR0LH
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Report this Post09-21-2017 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Every year is different but roughly, we consume 133 billion gallons gasoline per year in the United States.

The thermal energy content in gasoline is about 33 kWh per gallon. This gives 4,443 TWh of thermal power needed for gasoline road vehicles in the U.S. per year.

Current electric vehicles are four times as efficient as gasoline vehicles so it would take 1,111 TWh of electrical energy to replace that gasoline energy.

Since U.S. electricity consumption is roughly 3,900 TWh per year, the increase in yearly electricity demand would be about 30 percent.

How do we do that?
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Report this Post09-21-2017 10:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The artical mostly references other countries, the numbers referenced from the United States are for the 35k leaf in a single stage that nobody wants with the 35k model 3 around the corner.

Being critical of the subsidies is not wrong, any kind of manipulation of the market like that is not ok but saying a subsidy makes it less viable with no data to back it up and does not make it so. The numbers actually show record EV sales. Nearly half of the pre ordered model 3s will receive no federal tax incentives which means non federal incentivized model 3s will likely outsell F150s in 2018.
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Report this Post09-21-2017 10:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jmbishop

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Member since Jul 2006
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:

Every year is different but roughly, we consume 133 billion gallons gasoline per year in the United States.

The thermal energy content in gasoline is about 33 kWh per gallon. This gives 4,443 TWh of thermal power needed for gasoline road vehicles in the U.S. per year.

Current electric vehicles are four times as efficient as gasoline vehicles so it would take 1,111 TWh of electrical energy to replace that gasoline energy.

Since U.S. electricity consumption is roughly 3,900 TWh per year, the increase in yearly electricity demand would be about 30 percent.

How do we do that?


First name a single person here who suggested EVs would 100% replace gasoline other than the people repeatedly coming up with the strawman arguments.
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Report this Post09-21-2017 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:


Current electric vehicles are four times as efficient as gasoline vehicles



That fact you have there is only good if you don't consider the energy efficiency of the source of electricity and the losses inherent in distribution.
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