quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: How about you offer up some data on how a single parent is an advantage to Children's education and social skills? And the % of black single parent families vrs other races? If there is any difference at all? I need this information because I have a hard time understanding how single parent children are better off than those with a supportive family structure? I need this data to help me understand if incarceration is a result of single or no family upbringing?

I don't have that data, and I would agree that a family structure is incredibly important. It is a key reason why social mobility in Salt Lake City is so high for a conservative city(of the 10 highest cities social mobility rates, 9 are liberal centers).

My question is meant to provoke a response, and it seems to have done that. If, as you say, all of our brain makeups are the same regardless of race(which I totally agree), why are there so many black people in jail? Why do black people make so many more "bad choices"?

I don't believe they make particularly worse choices, I think that our system is rigged against them. They are more likely to be pulled over and searched, more likely to be abused by the police, less like to get a job because of their ethnicity, more likely to be wrongly convicted, and more likely to grow up with less access to financial resources or good schools as their white counterparts. These are the reasons there are more black Americans that make "bad choices", and this is the systematic oppression in our country.

I provided a source for ever single one of my claims. Each one has major, reputable institutions that have studied it. "White privilege" is not growing up with an easy life, 'white privilege' is not having to deal with these very things I just posted and cited.

How much do I owe in reparations? Could I write a check, or does blm only accept food stamps?

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: How much do I owe in reparations? Could I write a check, or does blm only accept food stamps?

Did you not read my post at all? There is no call for reparations, only criminal and educational justice reform. The goal(imo) is that black americans can have the same shot as white americans, and they currently don't.

Well, blm demands more than you then.

What can I do?

quote Originally posted by Threedog: The goal(imo) is that black americans can have the same shot as white americans, and they currently don't.

Here's why they don't:

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Percent of unwed mothers. Also, unwed motherhood is the number one cause of poverty and children from unwed mothers is the most important factor determining the child becoming a criminal and high school dropout. This is the USA.

So the big question is: why are so many black women single parents?

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: So the big question is: why are so many black women single parents?

What about all the data I posted?

Single parents is a result of the oppression they face, not a cause. Black Americans have never had a chance to get on their feet, they have been stuck at the bottom rung of society and continually oppressed. I provided the data, please, please read it.

quote Originally posted by Threedog: What about all the data I posted? parents is a result of the oppression they face, not a cause. Black Americans have never had a chance to get on their feet, they have been stuck at the bottom rung of society and continually oppressed. I provided the data, please, please read it.

Who is forcing them to make a bad situation worse? I have had a ****ed up child hood, I wont go into it most of it but I come from a broken family and most of them have done things I don't condone. Didn't make me into the same kind of person.
You have a choice on how you deal with life. You can let it define you or you can be who you are and be a good person.
Let it define you or let it set boundaries that you know not to cross.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 08-31-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Well, blm demands more than you then. What can I do?

BLM is not a single organization. I know more community leaders that want equal opportunity than I know that want equal outcome. And honestly? The only thing you can do is separate the bad BLM from the good. I am sure you can agree that not everyone who is right wing is racist. I try not to paint everyone on the right with a single brush. Remember examples likethis, and this. If you want to know about the movement, read this, don't learn about them from the shitty examples(cause the certainly exist).

There are plenty of bad people who use BLM as a mask for what they do, don't let those bad examples own the conversation when they are the minority. The core of BLM is criminal justice reform, and this country desperately needs that.

quote Originally posted by Threedog: But how does that change the fact that these people are being oppressed?

Who is oppressing them?

I was not involved in any oppression. Man do I feel relieved of my white guilt. If I knew this earlier 🐩🐩🐩, we could have been buds.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: Who is oppressing them?

The majority of this country. Our employers, our police, and our courts. People refuse to recognize the bias that they have and claim it doesn't exist. Those who support the drug war, and those who ignore police brutality and profiling. You might not be oppressing them, but the white dominated systems in this country certainly are.

Is it all white people? No.
Is it only white people? No.
But who has the most power to stop it? The white voter, as they still hold the political power in this country.

I(as a liberal this is hard to say) fully agree with the Koch brothers on this one. Our criminal justice system keeps people down, and the black community is the largest section of those people.

My evidence?

quote I think that our system is rigged against them. They are more likely to be pulled over and searched, more likely to be abused by the police, less like to get a job because of their ethnicity, more likely to be wrongly convicted, and more likely to grow up with less access to financial resources or good schools as their white counterparts. These are the reasons there are more black Americans that make "bad choices", and this is the systematic oppression in our country.

You're making a circular argument.

Single parenting makes children more likely to fail at life (be poor, do drugs, commit crimes, etc). This is well documented, and scientifically proven. A certain segment of the population has a higher proportion of single parents, so naturally that segment of the population is more likely to be arrested by cops, and end up in court. This is not profiling, it is a failure of those people to properly raise their children.

Now you're saying the cops and the courts are "oppressing" these people, and somehow this "oppression" is keeping women from getting married. Explain to me how that works.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: You're making a circular argument. Single parenting makes children more likely to fail at life (be poor, do drugs, commit crimes, etc). This is well documented, and scientifically proven. A certain segment of the population has a higher proportion of single parents, so naturally that segment of the population is more likely to be arrested by cops, and end up in court. This is not profiling, it is a failure of those people to properly raise their children. Now you're saying the cops and the courts are "oppressing" these people, and somehow this "oppression" is keeping women from getting married. Explain to me how that works.

So, black people don't know how to have families? Is that what you're saying?

That's what your arguing. You are saying that because black people don't know how to have families, they are criminals. Are black people incapable of having families?

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: Now you're saying the cops and the courts are "oppressing" these people, and somehow this "oppression" is keeping women from getting married. Explain to me how that works.

Put daddy in jail.

If daddy is in jail he can't really be a in home father figure can he? So mommy raises Jr. up to hate the cops that put daddy in jail. Jr. has no real tie to the idea of being a father, since he grew up without one. So Jr. knocks up a girl and either leaves her high and dry, goes to jail or gets dead from whatever source. It's a vicious circle that is going to take generations to reverse.

Sadly, this circle does have a start. Your ideas on where it started?

quote Originally posted by Khw: Put daddy in jail. If daddy is in jail he can't really be a in home father figure can he? So mommy raises Jr. up to hate the cops that put daddy in jail. Jr. has no real tie to the idea of being a father, since he grew up without one. So Jr. knocks up a girl and either leaves her high and dry, goes to jail or gets dead from whatever source. It's a vicious circle that is going to take generations to reverse. Sadly, this circle does have a start. Your ideas on where it started?

It sure as hell didn't start in the last 20 years. Maybe the fact that blacks are incredibly overcriminalized? I appreciate you pointing out the cycle, many seem to ignore it. Black people in this country didn't 'become' criminals, they started as criminals, and white america still treats them as such no matter what they do.

The whole crime aspect isn't going to change because white people will decriminalize it. It will change when majority black communities give up their "don't snitch" attitudes. When they stop smoking marijuana in public in broad daylight. When they stop running away if a police car is in sight. When they stop pointing at the white man for "holding them back".

It's a dog-eat-dog world no matter what color your skin is. There are some Americans who have their rich families handing their lives to them on a silver platter, but BLM would have you think it's every white person's upbringing. We have all the same classes, from trash to rich snobs. Druggies to Doctors.

Life is what you make it. And if you follow the first paragraph, maybe a better joint effort to clean up the communities and eliminate the high crime rates, which may take some snitching, will result in a less aggressive police presence.

Sounds to me they would rather just be allowed to live their culture the way it is and rely on sports scholarships or rapping to get anywhere in life.

Getting America to accept black culture in its' current state, is far too much to ask. Believe me, we would ALL like to see better education and bigger efforts. Us white folks would love to control our own heroin epidemic. We have no problem snitching.

In short, the power to rise above is our own responsibility. Nobody gets to the top obstacle-free, and if police and governments are obstacles, communication and intelligence are the keys to surpassing them. Not guilty? Don't run.

quote Originally posted by viperine: In short, the power to rise above is our own responsibility. Nobody gets to the top obstacle-free, and if police and governments are obstacles, communication and intelligence are the keys to surpassing them. Not guilty? Don't run.

You miss the point. It is far more likely for a black man to be wrongfully convicted. Instead of "not guilty, don't run", it should be "not guilty, don't put in prison".

Yes, we all have obstacles to overcome, but when the criminal justice system is an obstacle for certain groups, it is our responsibility to remove that obstacle. We do not get to have a system that continually oppresses those around us, and simultaneously say that we deserve what we got.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Make sure you aren't looking for equality of outcome where there probably isn't going to be any. Here is a big one that affects peoples lives, having both parents, and those parents love you and eachother. Something that affects that is the overabundance of government handouts. Something that affects that is voting for parties that promote a lot of that. Something that affects that is peoples values. Something that affects that is how they are raised. etc, etc etc That's part of what some call culture.

Growing up in a violent home is also part of the equation...beleive, me dude I know. Hit so hard wooden spoons were broken on me, forced to sit on the floor of the car because thats where dogs sit, grabbed by the hair and have your face smashed into a wall, handuffed to a railing and sit there, a whole bottle of Tabassco sauce poured in your mouth and your noce and eyes rubbed with it, beaten to the point the docs are scratching thier heads how you are still alive, grow up hearing how you should have been drowned in your 1st bath, hearing how "I dont know why I dont just kill you"...

I know. I grew up that way, THAT kind of violence in the home.

Dad was a good man, but once he married that POS he was trapped financially and as of 3 years ago she hasnt changed one bit. Mother ?--I never had one. From day one I had an abuser, tormentor and crazy-ass ***** .

Dad was laying there dying of cancer, I'm draining his fluid bag and changing his diapers, he is crying and that ***** spit in the bed he was in.

Not many people wish thier mom dead...but I do. burn in yuo catholic hell you **** ...If thats your god and your church then why dont you just go play go-****-yourself.

You need to address your own issues before you can go any further. This holds true for everyone. Including me.

quote Originally posted by Khw: Put daddy in jail. If daddy is in jail he can't really be a in home father figure can he? So mommy raises Jr. up to hate the cops that put daddy in jail. Jr. has no real tie to the idea of being a father, since he grew up without one. So Jr. knocks up a girl and either leaves her high and dry, goes to jail or gets dead from whatever source. It's a vicious circle that is going to take generations to reverse. Sadly, this circle does have a start. Your ideas on where it started?

OK, that makes sense. So maybe there's a "cycle of depravity" that needs to be broken. However, I don't think that blaming the police, court system, etc is going to do anything to help break that cycle. For example, if a young black male goes out and robs someone, we shouldn't go easy on him just because he's a young black male with no father figure. That will do nothing to solve the actual problem, and may even embolden him to commit more crimes.

So what is the real answer? How can the cycle be broken? I'm not sure. I'm not close enough to the problem.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: OK, that makes sense. So maybe there's a "cycle of depravity" that needs to be broken. However, I don't think that blaming the police, court system, etc is going to do anything to help break that cycle. For example, if a young black male goes out and robs someone, we shouldn't go easy on him just because he's a young black male with no father figure. That will do nothing to solve the actual problem, and may even embolden him to commit more crimes. So what is the real answer? How can the cycle be broken? I'm not sure. I'm not close enough to the problem.

Once again, we are not talking about going easy on him, just treating black people as innocent until proven guilty instead of the other way around.

Black men are more likely to be WRONGFULLY convicted. And more likely to be pulled over and searched despite the rate of drugs found on them. They are also more likely to be abused by police. A guy who takes a TV and runs from a Walmart does not deserve to be beaten unless he is actively fighting police.

Stop the war on drugs, stop racial profiling, stop wrongful convictions, and stop police brutality. It is that simple.

quote Originally posted by Threedog: Once again, we are not talking about going easy on him, just treating black people as innocent until proven guilty instead of the other way around.

You never mention fairness towards any other race. Just that whites are never a victim.

quote Black men are more likely to be WRONGFULLY convicted.

Using capitalization does not make it true.

quote And more likely to be pulled over and searched despite the rate of drugs found on them.

Now you are just making more shat up.

quote A guy who takes a TV and runs from a Walmart does not deserve to be beaten unless he is actively fighting police.

If he is running, he deserves to be stopped. An after beating is wrong, but while resisting arrest, all bets are off until that suspect/criminal is taken into custody.

quote Stop the war on drugs, stop racial profiling, stop wrongful convictions, and stop police brutality. It is that simple.

I agree with most but the war on drugs. We really do not need any more crack heads in this world.

quote Originally posted by Threedog: Stop the war on drugs, stop racial profiling, stop wrongful convictions, and stop police brutality. It is that simple.

It is not that simple. That may "free up" more black males to be father figures, but the reality remains that there is a culture that needs changed. They will still duck out because they don't want the responsibility. There was no father there for them after all. It's more than courts, jails, profiling and police brutality. The shift has to be made in the family support structure or nothing you do will change it.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Now you are just making more shat up.

quote I think that our system is rigged against them. They are more likely to be pulled over and searched, more likely to be abused by the police, less like to get a job because of their ethnicity, more likely to be wrongly convicted, and more likely to grow up with less access to financial resources or good schools as their white counterparts. These are the reasons there are more black Americans that make "bad choices", and this is the systematic oppression in our country.

Again, my evidence. Do you have a better source than studies by Stanford, Harvard, and the DOJ?

[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 09-01-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Threedog: Stop the war on drugs, stop racial profiling, stop wrongful convictions, and stop police brutality. It is that simple.

America will never stop fighting drugs. An d I am glad for the persistence in the effort to keep them illegal.
The rest are already illegal so.......ya. Beating a dead horse for excuses.

quote Originally posted by Khw: Put daddy in jail. If daddy is in jail he can't really be a in home father figure can he? So mommy raises Jr. up to hate the cops that put daddy in jail. Jr. has no real tie to the idea of being a father, since he grew up without one. So Jr. knocks up a girl and either leaves her high and dry, goes to jail or gets dead from whatever source. It's a vicious circle that is going to take generations to reverse. Sadly, this circle does have a start. Your ideas on where it started?

Maybe dady belongs in free-stuff jail ?

Ya know, there is a guy on 8th. I offered to take him up to the university and introduce him to some people.

It means you have to stay up all night 3 or 4 times a week, and they dont pay all that good...but its more than your $330 a month welfare and free rent on my taxes, and its a way to get out of this building, meet people, have a coffee and joke around.

I got told us white people should just be giving him money--the guy is from Jamaica and hasnt been in Canada 5 years yet.

**** it, if thats the attitude we have to deal with---a kick right back where his black ass came from is what I'll give him. I gave the man an opportunity and he would rather sit and be entitled because of his skin color.

Gettin real tired of them and thier demands. Black Lives Matter ?--not with that attitude they dont.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 09-02-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: America will never stop fighting drugs. An d I am glad for the persistence in the effort to keep them illegal. The rest are already illegal so.......ya. Beating a dead horse for excuses.

We can agree on the harmfulness of a lot of drugs but the "war on drugs" has been a complete failure! It's time to try something else. Rehab comes to mind and it works for some. I have a granddaughter who was one of the worst. So far she's a new person due to rehab. She had to be incarcerated to get her involved but she's a success story.

Ending the war on drugs will only increase crime in black communities. If we suddenly let everyone sell heroin to fund their tax-free lives, what do you think will happen? The dealers need punishment worthy of second-guessing their choice of income.

Something has to give, the decay of society has spiraled out of control for too long, and it will only get worse. The promise of high profits that don't affect your tax eligibility for welfare or assistance otherwise, is absolutely the worst thing a black community could have. Those who use heroin, make that choice. But the dealers do far more damage than selling, alone. Not that whites are in the clear for this same scenario. But the majority of drug related crimes in my area, stem from the black communities.

quote Originally posted by dratts: We can agree on the harmfulness of a lot of drugs but the "war on drugs" has been a complete failure! It's time to try something else. Rehab comes to mind and it works for some. I have a granddaughter who was one of the worst. So far she's a new person due to rehab. She had to be incarcerated to get her involved but she's a success story.

Looks to me like you are arguing against yourself. If she had to be snagged by the legal system and it's war on drugs in order to get involved in rehab and be successful at it, then you are saying "yes, sometimes the system does work."

I like how all of a sudden people stop responding to me once I provide multiple sources and they then cherry pick a different part of the subject. Truly is the digital version of putting your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalalalala"

[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 09-02-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Threedog: I like how all of a sudden people stop responding to me once I provide multiple sources and they then cherry pick a different part of the subject. Truly is the digital version of putting your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalalalala"

I have not done any such thing. Answer my queries.

quote Originally posted by dratts: We can agree on the harmfulness of a lot of drugs

Yes we can,... thus they stay illegal

quote but the "war on drugs" has been a complete failure! It's time to try something else.

I dissagree. Look at Mexico, no war on drugs,...look what they have now.
No war on drugs and literally nobody knows where we would be. Calling the "war on drugs" a failure is purely just an opinion.

quote Rehab comes to mind and it works for some.

"SOME".not good enough to say success. The fact is drug rehab is not that successful. And brain damage is ABSOLUTELY untreatable.

quote I have a granddaughter who was one of the worst. So far she's a new person due to rehab. She had to be incarcerated to get her involved but she's a success story.

Sad story as far as drugs go, good that she ditched it,...hope it is a permanent divorce. Sadly, those relationships rekindle.

Figured out a way to get rid of an irritating ad:

quote Originally posted by Khw: Looks to me like you are arguing against yourself. If she had to be snagged by the legal system and it's war on drugs in order to get involved in rehab and be successful at it, then you are saying "yes, sometimes the system does work."

Good point! I don't think it was a drug charge that got her incarcerated.

quote Originally posted by dratts: Me too! I know that alcoholics and druggies do fall off the wagon but I have high hopes for her. She's a good person who let those things rule her life for a while.

Most drug users start out as regular people, but drugs chip away at those personalities,..they change. This makes sense to me because the drugs are a chemical emotion. Then addiction sets in and the unquenchable need to supply the that need combined with how to pay for it,.......equals a person that their own parents do not recognize. I understand this is a very basic run down and results may very, but it is a reality for some. I don't know the % of those that get sucked in vrs those that can tame the tornado, but keeping them illegal to try to save people is worth it.

BTW, the term "war on drugs" is a joke anyway. A real war would serve drug dealers and "lab techs" a healthy serving of capital punishment.

When I think of "war on drugs" I think of prohibition. We already tried making alcohol illegal and we got organized crime. Why not try dealing with it by legally regulating drugs just like we do alcohol? We should make every effort to make treatment accessible for any addict. It won't work for everyone but I knew an addict that tried desperately to get into a rehab program and they just strung her along while trying to get distribution information from her. All she needed was a safe place away from the meth culture and I was able to provide it. After that she did it all on her own, cold turkey. She was a strong woman though. Anyway of the two addicts that I am acquainted with, one has benefited and the other would have too. I don't have a clue what the success rate is. Drug dealers and lab techs, I would agree with if I believed in capital punishment. One of the most honest moral people I've met in the last few years is a convicted meth drug dealer who got Jesus while in jail and completely turned his life around. Capital punishment would have deprived us of a valued member of our society and anyway I've been told that life imprisonment is three times cheaper than capital punishment. but

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 09-03-2017).]

quote Originally posted by dratts: When I think of "war on drugs" I think of prohibition.

OK, I see it.
But they are prohibited.

quote We already tried making alcohol illegal and we got organized crime.

We got human nature. You could use the same argument for welfare and other social programs that were engineered for weapons in the War on poverty.

quote Why not try dealing with it by legally regulating drugs just like we do alcohol?

No. You would have the same chance of convincing me to joint isis.
It wouldn't work and am am glad America as a whole feels the same way.

quote We should make every effort to make treatment accessible for any addict.

No. That is a waste of time money and resources. It is a fact that ONLY the willing can change and most relapse.
Some do change, BUT to just blow that kind of money on everybody is a total mismanagement of resources. A VERY hard and selective type of appropriation would be more prudent.

quote It won't work for everyone but I knew an addict that tried desperately to get into a rehab program and they just strung her along while trying to get distribution information from her.

Nothing would change if it were legalized except more broken lives.

quote All she needed was a safe place away from the meth culture and I was able to provide it. After that she did it all on her own, cold turkey. She was a strong woman though. Anyway of the two addicts that I am acquainted with, one has benefited and the other would have too. I don't have a clue what the success rate is.

But you would legalize drugs making "safe places harder to find and adict everywere. No sense in that logic.

quote Drug dealers and lab techs, I would agree with if I believed in capital punishment. One of the most honest moral people I've met in the last few years is a convicted meth drug dealer who got Jesus while in jail and completely turned his life around. Capital punishment would have deprived us of a valued member of our society

But legalization would not create any broken and wasted lives??? Again no logic.
I also have met MANY drug dealers, adicts and "techs" and they have openly agreed with my opinion. Some will die to save others in ANY war. A few will always be expended to save the many. Yes it sux, but it is a fact of life that has been in effect from the beginning and no doubt all the way to the end. Legalization of drugs will not change it.

quote and anyway I've been told that life imprisonment is three times cheaper than capital punishment. but

Not true. Capital punishment is less than $1,000. The expense is purposely legislated by anti-capital punishment activists. The expense is in MANY different areas from limitless appeals, to higher security housing, transportation, medical and countless others. It is NOT the sentence itself that costs, it is the political and legal games that have raped and molested justice that cost so much.

I'm with dratts on this. The war on drugs is a complete failure. We have spent countless billions making criminals out of ordinary people. Our appetite for illegal drugs has given rise to the Mexican Cartels and Columbian Cartels and has contributed to thousands of deaths in Mexico and South America.

Why do we continue to try the same ideas over and over and over with the same miserable results? It's the very definition of insane.