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Robert E. Lee. A 'standup guy' for a Confederate leader? A very different estimation. by rinselberg
Started on: 08-16-2017 05:16 AM
Replies: 106 (1263 views)
Last post by: Hudini on 08-26-2017 07:04 AM
starlightcoupe
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Report this Post08-24-2017 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for starlightcoupeSend a Private Message to starlightcoupeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I stopped posting here awhile back but I found this thread and became interested in it. Most folks here are younger than me if not all of you. I turn 80 in four months.

I was born and raised in the South and like others here, I became interested in the Civil War. I don't feel I am an authority on anything but I am amazed at the ignorance of our history by some folks here and I am very pleased with the ones who know their history. (Santayana's quote belongs here)

I think O'Donnell is as ignorant as anyone about the Civil War. One of the primary causes of the War was the South believed in States Rights and the Articles of Confederation and the North believed in the legitimate Constitution of the United States. O'Donnell didn't mention that point but did allude to something about it. In the end, slavery was the major element that provided needed labor to keep the cotton and tobacco growing. The South had an agrarian economy while the North was the industrial powerhouse. Lee's comment after resigning his Army commission about "I will never again draw my sword save in Defense of my State" shows Lee's commitment to his belief in The Articles of Confederation.

Robert E. Lee's father was "Lighthorse" Henry (or Harry) Lee who was George Washington's cavalry commander. He also wrote Washington's epitaph "First in War, first in Peace and first in the Hearts of his countrymen." Lee's wife Mary was a direct descendant of Martha Washington and was the keeper of Washington's sword that the Yankees lost but later found in a closet in the 1920s. Lee was a soldier in the 1846 Mexican-American War and later commandant of the US Military Academy. As a cadet, Lee had the highest scholastic standing of any West Point graduate that still stands today. Douglas MacArthur was a few decimal points behind Lee about 50 years later. Incidentally, Lee's home was Arlington Hall that later became a cemetery now called "Arlington Cemetery." The Yankees kicked out Mary Custus Lee (Lee's wife) and her slaves who she later freed to go to the South. I almost forgot to mention it but the Yankees set aside about 17 acres down the slope from Arlington House and around a bend to bury Black soldiers. The Yankees wanted to ensure Black soldier's remains wouldn't despoil the White soldier's sacred ground.

Douglas Southall Freeman wrote a great multi volume about Lee and while I recommend it (it can be b-o-r-i-n-g), I think the books are great, though not totally objective history of one of America's greatest soldiers. There are hundreds if not thousands of very good books about the Civil War and like WWII histories, they cover every aspect of the war. If you don't like to read, I urge you to get some videos about the Civil War and learn our history.

Much of what I wrote is from my failing memory but I think is better than O'Donnell's comments. I am against slavery, I am definitely not a bigot but I am proud of being a Southerner and particularly a Texan. I'm saving my ten dollars of Confederate money. I might need it some day.

[This message has been edited by starlightcoupe (edited 08-24-2017).]

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olejoedad
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Report this Post08-24-2017 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank you for reminding me about Arlington National Cemetery.
I had forgotten completely the tie-in to G.Washingtons family.

People need to take the time to read.
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RayOtton
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Report this Post08-24-2017 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I live in a small development on the Eastern Shore of Virginia where the original Arlington Plantation once stood.

http://www.easternshorevabl...rlington-plantation/

You can just see my house in the cluster of homes in the middle of the aerial shot.
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randye
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Report this Post08-24-2017 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by starlightcoupe:

I stopped posting here awhile back but I found this thread and became interested in it. Most folks here are younger than me if not all of you. I turn 80 in four months.

I was born and raised in the South and like others here, I became interested in the Civil War. I don't feel I am an authority on anything but I am amazed at the ignorance of our history by some folks here and I am very pleased with the ones who know their history. (Santayana's quote belongs here)



Thank you for your post.
I pray that I am one of those in whom you express pleasure for knowing at least a modicum of history.

Like you, I also plodded through Freeman's ponderous work on Lee but it was worth the effort.
I think I may have even mentioned Douglas Freeman in an earlier post.
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theBDub
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Report this Post08-24-2017 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Paraphrased:

rinselberg: Here is something that I saw recently that I didn't know. I am not sure of its validity, as this isn't my subject, but if anyone can pitch in I would like to hear more.

Everyone else (edit: except Threedog and starlightcoupe): rinselberg, you're an idiot who won't ever listen. All leftists are morons. Can't believe you even made this thread

????????


Jesus Christ people. I always hear of the "liberal snowflake" that's offended at everything, but I swear I see a hell of a lot more emotion coming from Conservatives nowadays. Have a god-damned conversation.

[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 08-24-2017).]

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starlightcoupe
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Report this Post08-24-2017 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for starlightcoupeSend a Private Message to starlightcoupeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


Thank you for your post.
I pray that I am one of those in whom you express pleasure for knowing at least a modicum of history.

Like you, I also plodded through Freeman's ponderous work on Lee but it was worth the effort.
I think I may have even mentioned Douglas Freeman in an earlier post.


I was a dyed-in-the-wool Civil War nut until a few years ago and now that I know you read Freeman's "ponderous" book I am glad to see you're interested as well.

I made a huge mistake in my post above. Maybe more. I was driving to the trash dump and I was thinking about Mary Custus Lee and I said to myself out loud, "Hey stupid man, Mary was Lee's cousin," a distant third cousin (I think) but a cousin nevertheless and as far as I know not a descendant of Martha.

I read a very good book about Raphael Semmes, "Wolf of the Deep" who sailed on his ship Alabama from England with a full crew to Singapore sinking Yankee ships as he sail until he ran into the Union frigate Kearsarge. Semmes' ship was in bad shape and he sank so many Union ships that he had a bounty on his head. He was threatened with death if he ever returned to the United States. It is a very good book and it is on Amazon. His executive officer wrote a book about Semmes as well and it is also good and has a lot of anecdotes in it that I never knew.
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olejoedad
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Report this Post08-24-2017 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
'scuse me bDub, why are you lumping me in with your snowflakes?

Don't pizza me off, I'll tear down that statue of you..... er, you do have a statue I can tear down, right?
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Report this Post08-24-2017 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by starlightcoupe:


I was a dyed-in-the-wool Civil War nut until a few years ago and now that I know you read Freeman's "ponderous" book I am glad to see you're interested as well.

I made a huge mistake in my post above. Maybe more. I was driving to the trash dump and I was thinking about Mary Custus Lee and I said to myself out loud, "Hey stupid man, Mary was Lee's cousin," a distant third cousin (I think) but a cousin nevertheless and as far as I know not a descendant of Martha.



I knew that Mary Anna Randolph Custis / Lee was Robert's *wife*. Married 1831
(For those of you that don't know, she taught slave women to read, write and sew, anticipating eventual emancipation.)
I wasn't aware of any relationship as a distant cousin.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 08-24-2017).]

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olejoedad
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Report this Post08-24-2017 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My maternal grandmother was a great great grand nice of First Lady Martha Custiss Washington.
Or so the story goes....
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theBDub
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Report this Post08-24-2017 10:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

'scuse me bDub, why are you lumping me in with your snowflakes?

Don't pizza me off, I'll tear down that statue of you..... er, you do have a statue I can tear down, right?


To be honest, I didn't see the second page. I must have clicked 3 thinking it was the second.

The point is just that the first page seemed to me to be a pretty hysterical response to a reasonable original post. Sorry to anyone who didn't contribute to that, that I missed
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randye
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Report this Post08-24-2017 10:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

My maternal grandmother was a great great grand nice of First Lady Martha Custiss Washington.
Or so the story goes....


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that still doesn't make you eligible for membership as a Daughter of the American Revolution.
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Report this Post08-25-2017 06:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that still doesn't make you eligible for membership as a Daughter of the American Revolution.


Microaggression alert!

Did you just assume a fellow member's gender???????????????
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On a more serious note, O/T members need to realize that someone who holds 80% of the same views as you do is not your political enemy.

Might want to keep that in mind before you post.

A little decorum goes a long way.

[This message has been edited by RayOtton (edited 08-25-2017).]

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Hudini
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Report this Post08-25-2017 06:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Someone can hold 0% of my political views and not be an enemy. It's when they declare me a "Nazi' and feel it's ok to commit violence against me that we become enemies. And I will fight back. I will defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. You can count on that.
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RayOtton
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Report this Post08-25-2017 08:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Agreed.

However, I don't think theBdub was saying that.

Maybe I'm misreading the whole thing but it seems the level of vitriol aimed at this member is all out of proportion to what he IS saying.
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cliffw
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Report this Post08-25-2017 08:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that still doesn't make you eligible for membership as a Daughter of the American Revolution.


My wife is a member of the Daughter's of Republic of Texas.

Trivia quiz ?

What makes one eligible, to be a member of either organization ?
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RayOtton
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Report this Post08-25-2017 08:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:

What makes one eligible, to be a member of either organization ?


Emmmm, biological indoor plumbing?

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olejoedad
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Report this Post08-25-2017 08:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that still doesn't make you eligible for membership as a Daughter of the American Revolution.


Thanks for bursting my bubble, bro!


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Report this Post08-25-2017 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:
Emmmm, biological indoor plumbing?


Umm, no sir but your guess makes sense, perhaps you are right, in a sense. I have never heard of Son's of the American Revolution, or Son's of the Republic of Texas. Hmm ... .

Ray you will shortly have a PM.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 08-25-2017).]

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spark1
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Report this Post08-25-2017 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for spark1Send a Private Message to spark1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:


My wife is a member of the Daughter's of Republic of Texas.

Trivia quiz ?

What makes one eligible, to be a member of either organization ?


DTR: Any woman having attained her sixteenth (16th) birthday is eligible for membership, provided she is personally acceptable to The DRT and is a lineal descendant of a man or woman who rendered loyal service for Texas prior to the consummation of the Annexation Agreement of the Republic of Texas with the United States of America on the nineteenth day of February, eighteen hundred forty-six (19 February 1846).

DAR: The Daughters of the American Revolution is a lineage-based membership service organization for women who are directly descended from a person involved in the United States' struggle for independence.

So in either case it is a woman who by birth fits into one or both groups.
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Report this Post08-25-2017 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by spark1:

So in either case it is a woman who by birth fits into one or both groups.


This gonna get tricky.

A woman who was born with those genealogical traits?

Just a woman who was born a woman?

Don't get pissed at me. I'm just trying to keep up with the times.
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Report this Post08-25-2017 11:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for otakududeSend a Private Message to otakududeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I saw this the other day and thought it might be interesting to some here.

The Ten Causes Of The War Between The States
By James W. King and LtCol Thomas M. Nelson

Historians have long debated the causes of the war and the Southern perspective differs greatly from the Northern perspective. Based upon the study of original documents of the War Between The States (Civil War) era and facts and information published by Confederate Veterans, Confederate Chaplains, Southern writers and Southern Historians before, during, and after the war, I present the facts, opinions, and conclusions stated in the following article.
Technically the 10 causes listed are reasons for Southern secession. The only cause of the war was that the South was invaded and responded to Northern aggression.

I respectfully disagree with those who claim that the War Between the States was fought over slavery or that the abolition of slavery in the Revolutionary Era or early Federal period would have prevented war. It is my opinion that war was inevitable between the North and South due to complex political and cultural differences. The famous Englishman Winston Churchill stated that the war between the North and South was one of the most unpreventable wars in history. The Cause that the Confederate States of America fought for (1861-1865) was Southern Independence from the United States of America. Many parallels exist between the War for American Independence (1775-1783) and the War for Southern Independence.

More at the link... The Ten Causes Of The War Between The States
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Report this Post08-25-2017 11:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by spark1:
DTR: Any woman having attained her sixteenth (16th) birthday is eligible for membership, provided she is personally acceptable to The DRT and is a lineal descendant of a man or woman who rendered loyal service for Texas prior to the consummation of the Annexation Agreement of the Republic of Texas with the United States of America on the nineteenth day of February, eighteen hundred forty-six (19 February 1846).

DAR: The Daughters of the American Revolution is a lineage-based membership service organization for women who are directly descended from a person involved in the United States' struggle for independence.

So in either case it is a woman who by birth fits into one or both groups.


Thank you, job well done. I think.
I thought to be a member of the Daughter's of Republic of Texas, you also had to be a resident of "Tejas" (Texas, as it was known then) before it's independence from Mexico.

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Report this Post08-25-2017 11:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

cliffw

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Member since Jun 2003
 
quote
Originally posted by otakudude:

I saw this the other day and thought it might be interesting to some here.

The Ten Causes Of The War Between The States
More at the link... The Ten Causes Of The War Between The States


Great post, thanks.
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Report this Post08-25-2017 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:

Agreed.

However, I don't think theBdub was saying that.

Maybe I'm misreading the whole thing but it seems the level of vitriol aimed at this member is all out of proportion to what he IS saying.


I most certainly was not, and I also don't believe Hudini believes I was.
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Report this Post08-26-2017 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by spark1:


DAR: The Daughters of the American Revolution is a lineage-based membership service organization for women who are directly descended from a person involved in the United States' struggle for independence.



About 3 years ago, perhaps longer, my dear wife decided that her new "hobby" was genealogy research.
Accordingly, she began bleeding my wallet for about $250 every 6 months for her Ancestry.com membership.

The cost certainly isn't any big deal, and besides it keeps her home and out of the local taverns at night......

....just kidding. She's a doting Grandma to our 6 Grandkids now and her intent was simply to fully document our heritage for future reference by our offspring.

What was completely unexpected was that she recently discovered evidence that allowed her to submit her application for membership in the DAR.

I guess I'll know that her application was approved when she starts leaving bills for her membership dues on my desk.

I also think it might make our daughter and our 3 Granddaughters eligible for the DAR as well so this could get expensive!

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 08-26-2017).]

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RayOtton
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Report this Post08-26-2017 05:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RayOttonSend a Private Message to RayOttonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hopefully there will be a Republic by the time they come of age.

Whoo, that's a downer when you see it written on the page.
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Report this Post08-26-2017 07:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


About 3 years ago, perhaps longer, my dear wife decided that her new "hobby" was genealogy research.
Accordingly, she began bleeding my wallet for about $250 every 6 months for her Ancestry.com membership.

The cost certainly isn't any big deal, and besides it keeps her home and out of the local taverns at night......

....just kidding. She's a doting Grandma to our 6 Grandkids now and her intent was simply to fully document our heritage for future reference by our offspring.

What was completely unexpected was that she recently discovered evidence that allowed her to submit her application for membership in the DAR.

I guess I'll know that her application was approved when she starts leaving bills for her membership dues on my desk.

I also think it might make our daughter and our 3 Granddaughters eligible for the DAR as well so this could get expensive!



My oldest daughter is a DAR member. The wife and youngest are all eligible. Benefits of that Ancestry membership.
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