You won't answer because you know you made a ridiculous argument.
NO. The simple fact is that I'm not going to engage in this endless nonsense with you.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
But we can assume...
Once again, NO
"WE" won't assume . You're demonstrably all alone here on that count so, more precisely, YOU can assume to your hearts content but that will never constitute objective FACT.
Everything you have presented is nothing more than your assumptions and personal opinions based on anecdotes that you gleaned from the media. You have repeated them over and over again.
Despite your continual banging away on this, I sure as hell don't see people here jumping on your assumption bandwagon with you.
I'm really starting to wonder why this "admission" of your assumption that you're trying so desperately to goad everyone into is so damned important to you.
You go have fun with it though.
I'm done with this endless nonsense with you.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 08-26-2017).]
"WE" won't assume . You're demonstrably all alone here on that count so, more precisely, YOU can assume to your hearts content but that will never constitute objective FACT.
Everything you have presented is nothing more than your assumptions and personal opinions based on anecdotes that you gleaned from the media. You have repeated them over and over again.
Despite your continual banging away on this, I sure as hell don't see people here jumping on your assumption bandwagon with you.
I'm really starting to wonder why this "admission" of your assumption that you're trying so desperately to goad everyone into is so damned important to you.
What difference does it make who the "neo Nazis" voted for?
As much of a difference as who the black lifes matter voted for. BUT no one hassled obama about denouncing the violence and racism in that group. In fact obama invited them into the White House for dinner. At least Trump did not do this for the white racists.
I think it's pretty well established that a few white supremacists do actually exist out there. Considering the constant anti-white and anti-working class crap spewing out of just about every democrat nowadays, it does seem logical to me that when a white supremacist votes, he would vote against a democrat.
That said, identifying as a white supremacist is probably an indicator that race carries an inordinate meaning to the person, and right of center political philosophy likely has next to nothing to do with their motivation at the ballot box. Correlative maybe, but not causative. The nazis were a socialist governing philosophy, with little difference from the communists. What was hitler (sorry, I refuse to capitalize that name) saying here ?:
quote
To put it quite clearly: we have an economic programme. Point No. 13 in that programme demands the nationalisation of all public companies, in other words socialisation, or what is known here as socialism. … the basic principle of my Party’s economic programme should be made perfectly clear and that is the principle of authority… the good of the community takes priority over that of the individual. But the State should retain control; every owner should feel himself to be an agent of the State; it is his duty not to misuse his possessions to the detriment of the State or the interests of his fellow countrymen. That is the overriding point. The Third Reich will always retain the right to control property owners. If you say that the bourgeoisie is tearing its hair over the question of private property, that does not affect me in the least. Does the bourgeoisie expect some consideration from me?… Today’s bourgeoisie is rotten to the core; it has no ideals any more; all it wants to do is earn money and so it does me what damage it can. The bourgeois press does me damage too and would like to consign me and my movement to the devil.
There's nothing alt- or fringe- right about any of that. Someone who believes those things would logically vote for democrats who believe essentially the same things. But many are hung up on racial hatred, and simply vote against those they see as against their race. That doesn't make them right of center. More like plain ignorant. I would venture a guess that many who would carry a nazi flag around don't even know or care what the nazis believed; other than their racism - and that came out of the progressive movement's eugenics theories.
As far as the kkk, they are the dems original racial grievance group, and their original terrorist arm. They were antifa before antifa was antifa. Again, they might vote against a democrat, but that doesn't make them right of center, let alone alt- or fringe- right.
The actual fringe right are the militia groups. But since none of them have actually done much of anything to put themselves on the radar since Oklahoma City, they aren't of much value to the media propagandists to give their daily sales pitches for the democrat party. And that's all most of them are; the DNC's advertising dept. Words like 'nazi' and 'kkk' are more useful to them as labels to pin on those they want to defeat; and that's the only reason those labels are associated with the word 'right' at all.
[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 08-26-2017).]
I think it's pretty well established that a few white supremacists do actually exist out there. Considering the constant anti-white and anti-working class crap spewing out of just about every democrat nowadays, it does seem logical to me that when a white supremacist votes, he would vote against a democrat.
That said, identifying as a white supremacist is probably an indicator that race carries an inordinate meaning to the person, and right of center political philosophy likely has next to nothing to do with their motivation at the ballot box. Correlative maybe, but not causative. The nazis were a socialist governing philosophy, with little difference from the communists. What was hitler (sorry, I refuse to capitalize that name) saying here ?:
There's nothing alt- or fringe- right about any of that. Someone who believes those things would logically vote for democrats who believe essentially the same things. But many are hung up on racial hatred, and simply vote against those they see as against their race. That doesn't make them right of center. More like plain ignorant. I would venture a guess that many who would carry a nazi flag around don't even know or care what the nazis believed; other than their racism - and that came out of the progressive movement's eugenics theories.
As far as the kkk, they are the dems original racial grievance group, and their original terrorist arm. They were antifa before antifa was antifa. Again, they might vote against a democrat, but that doesn't make them right of center, let alone alt- or fringe- right.
The actual fringe right are the militia groups. But since none of them have actually done much of anything to put themselves on the radar since Oklahoma City, they aren't of much value to the media propagandists to give their daily sales pitches for the democrat party. And that's all most of them are; the DNC's advertising dept. Words like 'nazi' and 'kkk' are more useful to them as labels to pin on those they want to defeat; and that's the only reason those labels are associated with the word 'right' at all.
Very well said. Racists have a priority on skin color NOT politics.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 08-26-2017).]
I would say social conservative thought can lead to racism, though. Though conservatism doesn't promote racial identity, our brains are hardwired to find patterns. If you're very passionate about illegal immigration, you may begin to associate people from a certain region with that identity, even if they aren't illegal immigrants, and you will have negative emotions towards them.
And as the far (or fringe) right is an extreme case, I believe they've basically done just that to arrive at their racism. They associate their beliefs with certain religions, races, etc. and then become that which they hate. They're blinded to the communism they support and believe it's conservative (even though it's anything but) because their hatred for other races and religions is so great. Horseshoe theory in action.
I believe liberal thought can also lead to racism, as it promotes racial identity.
I would say social conservative thought can lead to racism, though. ...... I believe liberal thought can also lead to racism, as it promotes racial identity.
I believe racism is just an emotion. It is a form of hate. A person can develop this hate from witnessing many different types of stimulus, including the "news" or sports or family attitudes. I don't think political affiliation has a powerful draw for racism unless a person already has a racist mindset.
Originally posted by theBDub: I disagree. I don't believe the left, on average, wants the violence associated with Antifa. Many do, but I don't think most do. So that alone, to me, means they don't represent those ideals..
I mean they believe the same things, the only difference is, right now antifa uses violence to try and get it.
I don't understand why so many here refuse to just admit they were Republicans, who voted for Trump, who are also Neo Nazis?
That doesn't make you a Neo Nazi.
Not all Republicans are Neo Nazis.
I don't know why so many here seem offended that anyone would dare claim some Neo Nazis were part of the alt-right.
Have you been paying attention to the political climate in this country lately? Those two assertions you make are the polar opposite of what most in the media and in the democratic and large parts of the left wing of the republican establishment have been making for the last year. You should put on a trump hat and walk around la for a half hour and you would realize why his supporters are touchy about people trying to tie them to neo nazis. For a solid year anti-trump people have literally screamed from every corner that anyone that supports trump is a nazi.
edit to add in case you are wondering for the record I hold contempt for all groups with violent, racist,or regressive ideologies, and dont want to be associated with them any of them, nor do I want their support for any of my causes. this includes but is not limited to all racial supremacist groups, all nazi groups, and all communist groups. Im also not a fan of group think in general.
[This message has been edited by gtjoe (edited 08-28-2017).]
I believe racism is just an emotion. It is a form of hate. A person can develop this hate from witnessing many different types of stimulus, including the "news" or sports or family attitudes. I don't think political affiliation has a powerful draw for racism unless a person already has a racist mindset.
I agree it isn't a powerful draw at all. I would say it's a minor symptom in a much larger issue. Meaning, that person would have already been racist, but they fuel their racism by cherry-picking ideals from their belief systems, which may include political affiliation. Kind of like how terrorists pick from Islam to justify, and fuel, their twisted beliefs, but the religion didn't cause their beliefs in a vacuum.
Have you been paying attention to the political climate in this country lately? Those two assertions you make are the polar opposite of what most in the media and in the democratic and large parts of the left wing of the republican establishment have been making for the last year. You should put on a trump hat and walk around la for a half hour and you would realize why his supporters are touchy about people trying to tie them to neo nazis. For a solid year anti-trump people have literally screamed from every corner that anyone that supports trump is a nazi.
edit to add in case you are wondering for the record I hold contempt for all groups with violent, racist,or regressive ideologies, and dont want to be associated with them any of them, nor do I want their support for any of my causes. this includes but is not limited to all racial supremacist groups, all nazi groups, and all communist groups. Im also not a fan of group think in general.
I agree that many, many on the left are accusing all Republicans, or those on the right, of being racist. I remember when Trump won, and my boss held a meeting, crying, and said she "couldn't believe there were still that many racists in America." I don't subscribe to that belief and never will. I do believe the best way to combat that belief is by acknowledging and denying it head-on.
Those on the right should, in my opinion, be very outspoken against the racism and bigotry of the Neo Nazis, White Nationalists, KKK, or whatever they choose to call themselves in that moment. Instead, I have seen many on this forum make excuses. We have seen the excuse that the rally was put together by a Democrat, paid by Soros. We have seen people, like MEM, fully stand behind their beliefs. We have seen others justify the car ramming the people, because they want to believe the driver was acting in self-defense. We have seen a lot of different, but similar reactions to what happened in Charlottesville, many of which somewhat (or blatantly) support the original protesters. In my opinion, this is wrong.
FWIW, I do believe the left should not applaud Antifa. Indeed, they should condemn Antifa. They should also be more consistent--if statues meant to inspire racism are to be taken down, so should other symbols of political repression, like Lenin's statue. They should also discontinue grouping the Republicans together and hating them all. That blame is pushing the right further away from center, which contributes to the divisive political field we have today.
I agree that many, many on the left are accusing all Republicans, or those on the right, of being racist. I remember when Trump won, and my boss held a meeting, crying, and said she "couldn't believe there were still that many racists in America." I don't subscribe to that belief and never will. I do believe the best way to combat that belief is by acknowledging and denying it head-on.
Those on the right should, in my opinion, be very outspoken against the racism and bigotry of the Neo Nazis, White Nationalists, KKK, or whatever they choose to call themselves in that moment. Instead, I have seen many on this forum make excuses. We have seen the excuse that the rally was put together by a Democrat, paid by Soros. We have seen people, like MEM, fully stand behind their beliefs. We have seen others justify the car ramming the people, because they want to believe the driver was acting in self-defense. We have seen a lot of different, but similar reactions to what happened in Charlottesville, many of which somewhat (or blatantly) support the original protesters. In my opinion, this is wrong.
FWIW, I do believe the left should not applaud Antifa. Indeed, they should condemn Antifa. They should also be more consistent--if statues meant to inspire racism are to be taken down, so should other symbols of political repression, like Lenin's statue. They should also discontinue grouping the Republicans together and hating them all. That blame is pushing the right further away from center, which contributes to the divisive political field we have today.
I pretty sure if me and you were sitting down having a couple beers and a conversation, it would be a great one. I think we would find ourselves in agreement on a large amount of things. I agree with you for the most part on the first point, I have yet to see anything that happened in Charlottesville thats defensible. the one thing I would caution you on is allowing yourself to get caught up in the moment, and group in people that don't deserve to be labeled. The whole white nationalist title has become code word for the left meaning people that they dont agree with. Ben Carson pretty much got lumped in with them last week by maxine waters. At the same time there are some pretty awful characters that fall in that category as well. Just be careful about who you let define the term for ya.
I got almost nothing on the statue thing. I cant get all that worked up on any side of pretty much any statue issue, with the exception of someone wanting to use my money to build one. Im not a huge fan of the majority of statues and monuments, and consider most of them a waste of resources. Im good with pretty much anybody building any statue they would like on their own property with their own money.
What is truly insane to me is the accusations that people swing at the "the left" here. Short of Dobey, I have never seen anyone lump the right in a bucket like the left is on the forum.
I have people literally calling me "the enemy" because I have left leaning views, I have had people tell me that "you're either with us or against us", and that it will turn to "war" soon. Have those of you who say these things lost your minds???. You are literally willing to call for violence against someone simply for a political viewpoint?
Are there violent leftists? Yes. Are there violent rightwingers? Yes. Are the majority of people violent? Not at all. I can't spend time here without getting called violent, called out for running multiple accounts, regularly yelled at for being a teacher....
My question is, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to shout any other opinion down? Because that's what it feels like. I know that I am going to get called a "liberal snowflake" for sharing these things, or get attacked because I have "feelings", or what have you, but the question really is, why do you post the hateful things that you post?
I pretty sure if me and you were sitting down having a couple beers and a conversation, it would be a great one. I think we would find ourselves in agreement on a large amount of things. I agree with you for the most part on the first point, I have yet to see anything that happened in Charlottesville thats defensible. the one thing I would caution you on is allowing yourself to get caught up in the moment, and group in people that don't deserve to be labeled. The whole white nationalist title has become code word for the left meaning people that they dont agree with. Ben Carson pretty much got lumped in with them last week by maxine waters. At the same time there are some pretty awful characters that fall in that category as well. Just be careful about who you let define the term for ya.
I got almost nothing on the statue thing. I cant get all that worked up on any side of pretty much any statue issue, with the exception of someone wanting to use my money to build one. Im not a huge fan of the majority of statues and monuments, and consider most of them a waste of resources. Im good with pretty much anybody building any statue they would like on their own property with their own money.
I really only define White Nationalists by those who call themselves White Nationalists. Same with the others. I won't let a few tweets from one person define how I view another. I appreciate the warning!
I am also for any statue on any private property. Or really anything as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of another. But on public property, my opinion is we should not be supporting anything that goes against our country's values of freedom for all.
I don't frequent the forum much anymore, but I came back specifically to see what everyone here was saying about Charlottesville. I had an assumption of what I would find... and was sad to discover I was correct. But if we're ever in a place to grab a beer together, I'm all for it. I don't drink anymore, though, so I'd have to have a Beck's non-alcoholic
quote
Originally posted by Threedog:
What is truly insane to me is the accusations that people swing at the "the left" here. Short of Dobey, I have never seen anyone lump the right in a bucket like the left is on the forum.
I have people literally calling me "the enemy" because I have left leaning views, I have had people tell me that "you're either with us or against us", and that it will turn to "war" soon. Have those of you who say these things lost your minds???. You are literally willing to call for violence against someone simply for a political viewpoint?
Are there violent leftists? Yes. Are there violent rightwingers? Yes. Are the majority of people violent? Not at all. I can't spend time here without getting called violent, called out for running multiple accounts, regularly yelled at for being a teacher....
My question is, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to shout any other opinion down? Because that's what it feels like. I know that I am going to get called a "liberal snowflake" for sharing these things, or get attacked because I have "feelings", or what have you, but the question really is, why do you post the hateful things that you post?
Totally agreed. I don't know if the distance made me see it more clearly, or if it's truly gotten worse, but I really don't appreciate how this forum reacts to politics anymore. Very hateful, very vengeful, and very few people ever seems to call those posters out on their bullshit. When they do, they're followed around and called names for days, if not weeks. I left this forum because of that behavior. Like I said above, I came back out of curiosity to see what everyone thought of this event. Just sad.
Totally agreed. I don't know if the distance made me see it more clearly, or if it's truly gotten worse, but I really don't appreciate how this forum reacts to politics anymore. Very hateful, very vengeful, and very few people ever seems to call those posters out on their bullshit. When they do, they're followed around and called names for days, if not weeks. I left this forum because of that behavior. Like I said above, I came back out of curiosity to see what everyone thought of this event. Just sad.
The problem is, every dumb-azzed idea the left has, from political-correctness to pronouns to socialist economics to flag-banning, to whatever-other-stupidity is on today's agenda, ends up forced on us as laws and backed up by severe penalty for non-compliance with the liberalist agenda.
The left is being told "GFY", if YOU want to live that way on YOUR OWN nickel you are perfectly free to do so. You ARE NOT free to force the ideology on anybody else (or require them to finance it) and we really DONT give a flying **** if the left is offended by that or not. We ARE now defending ourselves and our rights by whatever means required, and the left had better get used to it.
As for the snowflakes who grew up hearing how great and special they are ?.....No they are not. They are one of 7 billion bags of meat that bleeds and burns and dies just like any other living organism on this planet. There is not one damn thing special about them. Its time for them to do some reading.
Originally posted by Threedog: My question is, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to shout any other opinion down? Because that's what it feels like.
Some people might be. There are all different kinds of folks I think for some when they don't get responses to questions, these questions they consider rational discourse, and they only get another post as if the questions were never asked, decide its a lost cause, or some sort of steamroller not listening and only pumping out stories with baiting and accusation. Sure its hard when there are multiple conversations going on at once in a forum. Maybe its a sort of burnout. I do notice many great arguments overtlooked, and then only the jabs from loudmouths paid attention too. That's just my take.
Part of why I started posting vids, they are clearer and more concise. But people don't respond to them much, maybe because there is nothing to say, speechless? Too lazy to watch? Who knows? Maybe a lot of people just like to argue empty rhetoric and don't actually want to solve problems or preserve freedom.
As for "the left". These labels are hard to follow. I don't think "liberal, democrat or progressive and the left or alt left" mean exactly the same thing. That's why I like to focus on individual issues. Of course it all boils down to individual issues, just like responsibilities boil down to individual people. I think using the left is perhaps an attempt to break down the group labels a bit, not grow them, but for many folks it of course fails.
Here is one persons (of course bias) definition of "the left":
If you believe those things he described (you may need to remove the bias to understand them) then you are probably the left.
Originally posted by theBDub: I don't frequent the forum much anymore, but I came back specifically to see what everyone here was saying about Charlottesville. I had an assumption of what I would find... and was sad to discover I was correct.
I don't know if the distance made me see it more clearly, or if it's truly gotten worse, but I really don't appreciate how this forum reacts to politics anymore. Very hateful, very vengeful, and very few people ever seems to call those posters out on their bullshit. When they do, they're followed around and called names for days, if not weeks. I left this forum because of that behavior. Like I said above, I came back out of curiosity to see what everyone thought of this event. Just sad.
So, you went to a safe space where they talk politics in a civil manner. Tell us, where is this at ? You must not have read/learned that politics is contentious. You must have not read/learned of the fighting going on at the Constitutional Convention (when the Constitution was drafted). You must not know that when we fought for freedom, that more than half the colonies, or more precisely the residents of such, didn't want to stop sucking the King's drick.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: ... they're followed around and called names for days, if not weeks.
Cry me a river ! I have been called a racist for years. Sexist, anti-immigrant, the list goes on forever. by the left. On news shows, on the Senate floor, the House floor, I am devastated I tell you, devastated.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: I am also for any statue on any private property. Or really anything as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of another. But on public property, my opinion is we should not be supporting anything that goes against our country's values of freedom for all.
Freedom for all. Our country's values of freedom for all. That's a laugh. You must not know your history of the Civil War. The United States of America is a union of the States. The Civil War wasn't about keeping the black man down, even though all the statutes being taken down were DUMBOCRATS. The same DUMBOCRATS who fought against the Civil Rights Act, and wanted segregation. Who fought against desegregation.
The Civil War was about ... (dang it, someone just recently posted 10 reasons it was fought) State rights, taxation, Federal overreach, ... dang it, I am going to find it for you Brennon.
A little help from the peanut gallery ?
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 08-29-2017).]
So, you went to a safe space where they talk politics in a civil manner. Tell us, where is this at ? You must not have read/learned that politics is contentious. You must have not read/learned of the fighting going on at the Constitutional Convention (when the Constitution was drafted). You must not know that when we fought for freedom, that more than half the colonies, or more precisely the residents of such, didn't want to stop sucking the King's drick.
I don't want a safe space, Cliff. People here are welcome to be an ******* . Others are welcome to call them out. I didn't say I wanted people banned. What I do wish, is that this forum stuck up for decency more than it did just "their side" of the political spectrum. I don't want it moderated to a safe space. I want the individual members to call them out.
More gets done with calm conversation. You disagree with someone? Cool. Tell them why. Don't just blast them with names. It's elementary. It's boring. It's annoying. And yeah, it's why I left. No, not because I want a safe space. I didn't announce that I left with some call for banning rude people. I left because I made a choice that impacted myself. Making the actions of this forum some kind of representation of the freedom of the country is just bullshit.
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
Cry me a river ! I have been called a racist for years. Sexist, anti-immigrant, the list goes on forever. by the left. On news shows, on the Senate floor, the House floor, I am devastated I tell you, devastated.
I didn't talk about some broad definition of being called names places. I'm talking about specific people, on this forum, that are just a bunch of emotional whiny babies when it comes to politics. Anyone who disagrees with them gets harassed in any thread they post, regardless of the subject matter, regardless of the content or tone of their message. This isn't like "the left" calling names. It's specific assholes on this forum. It's not reading an article that someone posted to the world calling out a belief you hold. It's a reporter calling you daily to tell you you're an idiot. There is a difference.
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
Freedom for all. Our country's values of freedom for all. That's a laugh. You must not know your history of the Civil War. The United States of America is a union of the States. The Civil War wasn't about keeping the black man down, even though all the statutes being taken down were DUMBOCRATS. The same DUMBOCRATS who fought against the Civil Rights Act, and wanted segregation. Who fought against desegregation.
The Civil War was about ... (dang it, someone just recently posted 10 reasons it was fought) State rights, taxation, Federal overreach, ... dang it, I am going to find it for you Brennon.
A little help from the peanut gallery ?
Republicans love to throw around that the Democrats were on the wrong side of history back in the day. That's fine. The Democrats were the conservatives back then. Learn your history, Cliff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats
The Civil War was about a lot of reasons. A major one being slavery.
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:
Threedog, if you wonder why you get such intense reactions on the forum, this is the reason:
The results of a poll done by PBS / Marist of 14,000 adults evenly split Democrat / Republican.
9% of Republicans support the actions of white supremacists / Neo-nazis.
76% of Democrats support the actions of Antifa / BLM.
If you can't see the difference I don't know what would ever change your mind.
In 2013, under Obama, 38% of Democrats supported the U.S. launching missile strikes against Syria in response to chemical weapons being used against civilians. In 2017, under Trump, 37% of Democrats support the U.S. launching missile strikes against Syria in response to chemical weapons being used against civilians.
In 2013, under Obama, 22% of Republicans supported the U.S. launching missile strikes against Syria in response to chemical weapons being used against civilians. In 2017, under Trump, 86% of Republicans support the U.S. launching missile strikes against Syria in response to chemical weapons being used against civilians.
[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 08-29-2017).]
In 2013, under Obama, 38% of Democrats supported the U.S. launching missile strikes against Syria in response to chemical weapons being used against civilians. In 2017, under Trump, 37% of Democrats support the U.S. launching missile strikes against Syria in response to chemical weapons being used against civilians.
In 2013, under Obama, 22% of Republicans supported the U.S. launching missile strikes against Syria in response to chemical weapons being used against civilians. In 2017, under Trump, 86% of Republicans support the U.S. launching missile strikes against Syria in response to chemical weapons being used against civilians.
The issues are not comparable. This is about the culture war located within the boundaries of the US.
However, even if we did go by your logic, 76% of Republicans would be supporting Neo-Nazis since their guy is in the WH.
Instead, you have a party in complete ascendancy, both state and federal, whose members are overwhelmingly AGAINST the far right activists and a party with virtually no power whose members overwhelmingly SUPPORT the far left activists.
It's almost as if they're not listening.
This leads to the perception they are completely disconnected from every day Americans.
The issues are not comparable. This is about the culture war located within the boundaries of the US.
However, even if we did go by your logic, 76% of Republicans would be supporting Neo-Nazis since their guy is in the WH.
Instead, you have a party in complete ascendancy, both state and federal, whose members are overwhelmingly AGAINST the far right activists and a party with virtually no power whose members overwhelmingly SUPPORT the far left activists.
It's almost as if they're not listening.
This leads to the perception they are completely disconnected from every day Americans.
Which they are.
Well BLM and Antifa are not remotely the same thing. Antifa works primarily through violence and intimidation. BLM is primarily a social movement. I support BLM. Not Antifa. The poll itself did break them up, and Antifa only had an 8% support with Democrats (1% with Republicans). 76% support BLM (and 22% of Republicans). So it isn't fair of you to lump them together at all.
But my response was more than that.
My response is about how Republicans change their support for something based on who the president is. They work as a team more than the Democrats do. Democrats are more consistent in their beliefs regardless of party leadership. Republicans are also inconsistent with regards to what they say vs. what they vote for, with "small government" being the vocalized message but a voting record expanding powers of the State.
I don't like Democrats. I don't like expansion of the State at all. I don't like their tax policies. I don't like their gun policies. I don't like their welfare policies, support for war (just as much as Republicans), and a hell of a lot more. But Democrats at least have a line that they believe in and aren't swayed as much by party leadership. I wish Republicans would stand up against one another when they know something is wrong. We are finally seeing a bit of it with our divisive president, and I personally hope it continues. Skepticism is healthy.
I disagree that BLM is different than Antifa. They are two sides of the same coin, committed to violent overthrow of our republic.
Their actions speak volumes. BLM may have started out peaceful and the violent behavior may be the actions of a relative few, yet when those few are attacking police officers, it’s impossible for the average American to overlook.
BLM comes out in droves following very specific murders, when white cops kill black people. Nothing is ever said about the major problem, which is black on black violence. So again, the average, middle of the road, non-political American can't help but think there's something else driving the movement. Then when they hear the demands for whites to give up their property they say "Ah, ha, it's about money, not principle".
And then BLM loses all credibility.
If they want to be heard and remembered as a movement like the original civil rights movement of the 60's, they must do it without provoking police or inciting violence. Until they can figure out how to do this, their actions will continue to besmirch their reputation and they will get lumped in with other radical, violent groups like Antifa.
And, all due respect, when you and other well meaning but misguided people, continue to support BLM in their actions you are complicit in furthering the disruptions that our nation is suffering.
As to your thoughts on Democrats vs Republicans.
You portray Democrats as the party more likely to challenge their leaders. That is not true.
The perfect example is all those black ladies in their Sunday best stepping into their Baptist churches from their cars bearing bumper stickers for whomever is running on the Democrat ticket. You know, the party that put abortion rights on their presidential platform, along with gay marriage and then to top it off boo'd God at the national convention. Twice.
In fact, the great strength of the Democrats is to get all their folks to march to the same drummer. They are NOT the party of the big tent.
That is where Republicans and particularly Conservatives are at a distinct disadvantage. We favor free will and the free exchange of ideas. Which doesn't win elections.
That is changing now. I hate to use the term but the average American is "woke" to the excesses of BLM, Antifa, the Democrat party and the RINO's.
Hang in there, the change is gonna do you good.
[This message has been edited by RayOtton (edited 08-29-2017).]
I disagree that BLM is different than Antifa. They are two sides of the same coin, committed to violent overthrow of our republic.
Their actions speak volumes. BLM may have started out peaceful and the violent behavior may be the actions of a relative few, yet when those few are attacking police officers, it’s impossible for the average American to overlook.
BLM comes out in droves following very specific murders, when white cops kill black people. Nothing is ever said about the major problem, which is black on black violence. So again, the average, middle of the road, non-political American can't help but think there's something else driving the movement. Then when they hear the demands for whites to give up their property they say "Ah, ha, it's about money, not principle".
And then BLM loses all credibility.
If they want to be heard and remembered as a movement like the original civil rights movement of the 60's, they must do it without provoking police or inciting violence. Until they can figure out how to do this, their actions will continue to besmirch their reputation and they will get lumped in with other radical, violent groups like Antifa.
And, all due respect, when you and other well meaning but misguided people, continue to support BLM in their actions you are complicit in furthering the disruptions that our nation is suffering.
As to your thoughts on Democrats vs Republicans.
You portray Democrats as the party more likely to challenge their leaders. That is not true.
The perfect example is all those black ladies in their Sunday best stepping into their Baptist churches from their cars bearing bumper stickers for whomever is running on the Democrat ticket. You know, the party that put abortion rights on their presidential platform, along with gay marriage and then to top it off boo'd God at the national convention. Twice.
In fact, the great strength of the Democrats is to get all their folks to march to the same drummer. They are NOT the party of the big tent.
That is where Republicans and particularly Conservatives are at a distinct disadvantage. We favor free will and the free exchange of ideas. Which doesn't win elections.
That is changing now. I hate to use the term but the average American is "woke" to the excesses of BLM, Antifa, the Democrat party and the RINO's.
Hang in there, the change is gonna do you good.
This is a pretty major change of subject, but I find this really interesting.
I remember reading(or listening to a podcast) about how people all like to recognize their headwinds, but fail to see their tailwinds. This is true especially in the political parties. Both democrats and republicans talk about how they are at a distinct disadvantage for some reason.
I would argue what you talk about puts republicans at an advantage. As because the democrats have a very "top-down" message, they struggle with specific races and it hurts them in congress and in state elections. The republican "agenda" is much more diversified, which allows local races to be won, but struggles for national elections.
Gerrymandering favors the election of republicans, but the top-down message favors democratic senators.
In the end, I really believe we can only look at the numbers, as they do not show the bias that political sides do. If more people are voting for one side, but the other side is winning, then there is an advantage. And at least right now, that's the Republicans. More people vote for democratic candidates, but they are proportionally underrepresented. It will absolutely switch again(and it has in the past).
The question is, do we change the game, or do we change the players?
3 dog can't see or refuses to see that BLM are a racist hate group,, the same reason some voted for our last leader.. well they are a black group they "can't" be racist...
These are what groups like atfia and blm and others call useful idiots ..
It will be another long week end this week end, and thre will be not a ONE protest in any bloodbath innercity by BLM , to protest black on black crime and killing..
but tell us again 3 dog how they are about black lives mattering !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm taking squares, how many shot , and how many killed in chico, and other ghetto dumps..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 08-31-2017).]
Originally posted by Threedog: I would argue what you talk about puts republicans at an advantage. As because the democrats have a very "top-down" message, they struggle with specific races
I want some of what you are smoking.
The repulsivecans are the top down, trickle down guys, and the dumbs have the black vote, and the brown vote, and the queer vote all locked up.
Originally posted by Threedog: I have people literally calling me "the enemy" because I have left leaning views, I have had people tell me that "you're either with us or against us", and that it will turn to "war" soon.
You don't think racism is a worthy foe? Is fighting against racism a worthy cause?
18 years of Detroit public schooling and that twat dobie called me a racist, and here we have threebiatch doing the same. What if I were to go around calling black folk names?
You don't think racism is a worthy foe? Is fighting against racism a worthy cause?
Problem is, HE doesn't see the racism he projects!!!
Yes racism is worth fighting.. ALL racism !!!! not just the tiny tiny amount from pale skin people, but all types.. Worst part is those pointing the fingers are the most racist group of them all. Equal doesn't mean equal to them. This has spawned other groups to decide to use this playbook.. Feminist,gays,transgenders. not any of them what to be equal, not a one. The group/cause might have started as that but power corrupts, and now none of them want to be equal, they want extra special everything. Sadly we have let it happen.. I'm all for everyone being equal but as soon as you start forcing those that are not as good to the front of a line just because they are black,gay,female,etc.. you are not equal.. As soon as there are special laws to only protect your "type" you are not equal.. Two drunks get into a brawl at a bar, over a spilled drink if one is gay, it's a hate crime even though the fight was about a spilled drink.. same with if it is a minority . The facts don't matter only if the special treatment card can be pulled.. A few black 20 y/o's beat the crap out a homeless man.. just an assault and battery. But if the homeless man was black and the 20y/o's white.." hatecrime.." Sorry this country is more racist now than it was in the 60-70's.. and it isn't just white/black. It's any type person finding a way to use the I'm a victim to get special treatment. And we allow it.. and we should not.. so your gay, no one gives a crap, so your a female,don't expect the world to bow to you.. So, your black and 200 years ago, people you know nothing about MIGHT have been slaves ,MIGHT. So what.. You know what every country had slaves or "lower stations" polite way of naming slaves.. Yet only one group is still butthurt about it many, many generations later.. You know what all the others did?? They busted their asses to be the best of what they could be, No one gave a crap that they were "servants" in their homeland, or servents when here!! no one have them hand outs of special treatment. THEY EARNED what they got, and Earned respect. No one respects these leaches that think the world owes them.. NO ONE!! Not even your groups races baiting leaders/mouth pieces, they laugh at all you fools while living the highlife.. I'd like to say, people will wake up, and smarten up, but I don't see it happening.. I do see them now acting out like 2y/o's because they cried wolf so many times that no one cares anymore, sure they'll give them lip service but they don't care no more. They just want you to go away. And because most don't know when enough is enough, you will go away as the people you are pushing in a corner say #$%^ it and start just (to use innercity slang) cap your ass!! and your 13% of the population will got down, And the other "groups" that think they are special will get caught in ,what does the military call it , oh ya, "friendly fire" . The "melting pot" is boiling over, and people have had it up to their collective eyeballs.. You awaken this sleeping giant, you'll wish you didn't, as your crying wolf already removed the giving a crap, and people with no ^&*#'s to give, is a very very dangerous bunch.
