I am looking at a big ole Chinese 24kw generator head to couple to an old Fiero engine I have in the garage. How does one go about connecting this thing to my service panel? I want it to power the whole house so it needs some stout wiring for sure. I am most concerned about the connection from the generator itself to the house. I will have an electrician run a feed to the service panel from the generators location. But what connects the generator to that feed?
You will need a transfer switch. It will automatically switch the main feed into the house (from the pole) off when the generator starts feeding power, and back on again when the generator stops. This will prevent backfeeding the grid and potentially killing someone working on the lines.
------------------ 1986 SE Aero coupe.
3.4 DOHC swap is complete and running, now just have to finish the rest of the car...
We've looked at whole house generators to service my wife's medical needs in the event of power outages. We've pretty much narrowed our field down to the Generac brands. But, all brands we looked at have a service panel that makes the connection between the generator and the home. It contains a transfer switch that senses incoming power and starts or stops the auxiliary power supply, as needed. Here's an example.
Some things to think about when choosing a generator fuel choice They may not actually be used to power the home for years. Fuel choice is important because of this. Liquid fuels go sour when they sit for long periods. We've all heard about the Fieros that have set for years. We had determined that LP was the best choice because it won't go bad. If you're going to use an automotive engine, you might reconsider a marine engine. A little Mercruiser Duke. Marine engine cams are ground to run under load all the time. The generator probably will provide enough load for that to work.
Your system will also need a method to start the motor and generator for monthly operational testing. The transfer switch should have that property built into it.
For my first attempt it will all be manual. Manual start, test, switch over, everything. I am not going with an automatic transfer switch but will be using a lockout device. Because this first attempt is completely manual I will make sure to install the lockout device such that only one source may power the house at one time. No back feeding a dryer socket or any other unsavory and illegal use.
So, my question for anyone who has laid eyeballs on one of the ST generator heads, how does it hook up to your house? A 240v dryer plug? (I hope not) I can't seem to get a good view of the other side of that big ol' gen head.
Oh, it will be gasoline (2.8L Fiero V6) and it will be changed out regularly. I'm planning on running it at 1800 rpm to see how it handles the load. If it burns gas too quickly then I'll go with a pulley system and bring the rpms down. For now its going to be direct drive with a coupling. Any help with the flywheel weight? A heavier one is better but how heavy?
I have a manual transfer switch at my house. Sure if you buy the Generac setup everything is nice and whiz-bang with the auto transfer switches and all. At the teransfer switches really do is disconnect the main service from teh street and provide an alternate path to your generator. Sure it is possible to hardwire a generator in without transfer switch but it is dangerous--liek fry a lineman dangerous--not recommenede by any means.
The other question is 24kw it pretty large. What do you want to run? My guess is the generaotr head was deigned to be used at worksites with tools and such. If you use that same generaotr head in your hosue you may see problems with some of your electronic equipment. I would bet that the electric the head produces is rather dirty and not a clean sin wave. Just a few thoughts.
All I have for a backup is little 5kw B&S portable unit that I need to wheel around and plug in when needed. It is a pain in the butt however the electric service at my place is good and to date I have not needed to use it.
I would venture to guess that a new Generac unit with transfer switch would be cheaper and more reliable than scabbing togther a unit from parts and pieces. That is as long as you have natural gas or propane around. I think Costsco had a 17kw Generac unit for $3200, knowing that it is a new unit with comes auto transfer switch and a generator which auto runs it is a pretty darm good value.
Oh I agree with everything you wrote. But where is the fun in that? I want a big nasty gen head just barely being tasked with work. And I have the engine and parts just laying around in my garage from my 3.4L swap. I really really want to try.
Originally posted by tesmith66: You will need a transfer switch. It will automatically switch the main feed into the house (from the pole) off when the generator starts feeding power, and back on again when the generator stops. This will prevent backfeeding the grid and potentially killing someone working on the lines.
But Doesn't need an auto switch for many setups. Manual transfer switches are use w/ portable gen packs but even permanent units have manual switches when job doesn't need quick power.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
How are going to control frequency--got a data plate to match freq to input rpm? Did it come with a voltage regulator? What about rpm drop when a load kicks in? You will need to load sensitive govern the rpm, unless you intend to go "step on the gas" every time an appliance kicks on....
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-18-2016).]
You can use a manual switch in most cases just fine. Id only use an auto one if you travel a lot and dont want your refrigerator or freezer going off while your gone. Its just like a light switch...flip one way for regular current and other way for generator. You can find all kinds of them at an RV/ camping store. I have a manual one in the motorhome flipped one way when plugged in, other when I turn on generator. No way I can connect them together. There are many YouTube videos on types and installations, including step-by-step directions.
Chinese gen head + DIY, un-governed engine = good old times!
Not so fast me bucko! I bought a frequency controlled Generac governor. Yesiree, it regulates the throttle via the output frequency of the generator and is able to do 50 or 60 hz.
The Chinese gen head is famous for being damn near bullet proof. This is one of those things the villages use out in the boonies to power the whole village. Repair involves a hammer and a file.
[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 04-18-2016).]
Not so fast me bucko! I bought a frequency controlled Generac governor. Yesiree, it regulates the throttle via the output frequency of the generator and is able to do 50 or 60 hz.
Don't you see it? A friggin Fiero engine with intake and all powering my house! And all at the correct frequency and voltage. For far far less than a factory built, ready to run unit. Plus I have to admit I like a challenge. I've always wanted to see if I could make something like this. I have the tools and I'm gaining the knowledge slowly. That is why I'm asking for the forum's collective knowledge so that I may add that to my own. It may fail spectacularly but you never know until you try. I had never swapped engines or added a turbo to a car before I did it with my '86 GT.
So, my question for anyone who has laid eyeballs on one of the ST generator heads, how does it hook up to your house? A 240v dryer plug? (I hope not) I can't seem to get a good view of the other side of that big ol' gen head.
Here's where we need a little reality check with Dr. Ohm. What's the breaker size on your 240v dryer? 20A? 30A? 60A?
Well, a 24kW generator at 208V equates to over 115 Amps (I assume Single Phase, is that correct?). Might be a good idea to ask an electrician.
I can appreciate the DIY aspect, but you are dealing with lethal amounts of current that can just as easily fry wiring and burn your house down. Risk costs money. Just how much risk are you willing to assume and how much $$$ is it going to save you?
If you are picturing some Jed Clampett, Jethro Bodine contraption you would be mistaken. The wife unit will not tolerate some unsightly device in her yard. She made me cover up the pump and filter by the pool so I know she wouldn't accept some metal monstrosity. It will be properly covered and painted just like a store bought unit.
Here's where we need a little reality check with Dr. Ohm. What's the breaker size on your 240v dryer? 20A? 30A? 60A?
Well, a 24kW generator at 208V equates to over 115 Amps (I assume Single Phase, is that correct?). Might be a good idea to ask an electrician.
I can appreciate the DIY aspect, but you are dealing with lethal amounts of current that can just as easily fry wiring and burn your house down. Risk costs money. Just how much risk are you willing to assume and how much $$$ is it going to save you?
I will not be back feeding through the dryer circuit. I will be employing a certified electrician for all wiring. I plan on running all power through my 200 amp service panel with a lockout switch so that only one source can power the house at a time, gen or utility, never both.
It is a single phase 4 pole (1800 rpm = 60 hz) AC gen head. This is not the relatively fragile 2 pole 3600 rpm units you find on the smaller gen sets.
Even with a Generac or GE unit I will have to employ the electrician. The difference is the unit itself. Costs will be somewhat less but the knowledge factor is priceless. I will not be taking chances. That is why I seek advice.
Originally posted by Hudini: I will not be back feeding through the dryer circuit. I will be employing a certified electrician for all wiring. I plan on running all power through my 200 amp service panel with a lockout switch so that only one source can power the house at a time, gen or utility, never both.
Good because Installing a Transfer Switches is not DIY project to most people.
TS must be sized correctly or can melt/burn out fast.
In the US and some other counties... 1. Most places have rules to install Transfer Switches for residential and commercial use. If installed w/o meeting current electric/fire codes and causes any problems, or worse hurt/kill someone, then people will likely go to jail. You'd often have problems w/ Home/Business Insurance companies too. In China? Could get Death sentence when anything goes wrong.
2. Have to mess w/ "Service Entrance," IOW the big wire from Load Center to the Meter, just to install. In most cases, to shut off power at that point you must remove the meter.
Meter Boxes are Lock and Sealed by Power Co in many places. If you have a "Smart Meter" then Power Co will know someone pulled a meter in a minute or two max.
While meter and box looks tough... Easy to damage the meter, socket and/or box. Example: Philly area had big problems w/ smart meter switch because contractors damage the meter's socket. (google: smart meter fires philly) One correct way to remove/install meters safely and some contractors didn't bother.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-19-2016).]
Most of China is 220v 50hz to the mains outlet. Not sure if they have single or Split-phase to a building. In the US is 220v 60hz split-phase to produce 2 120v lines 180° out of phase w/ each other in the Load Center, AKA breaker/fuse box. Other places could be different but regardless of that, Generator should be same as normal power to the Load Center.
If Generator is setup to output 208v then many things could see a "Brown Out" condition and that can cause big problems. Example, Most motors will have a very short life running on low volts. Very similar to See my Cave, Electric Motors for cars.
PC and others with Switching PSU might not notice. Other things with simple transformers likely won't run or run but with big problems.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-19-2016).]
This is for my home in Knoxville, Tennessee. I wouldn't spend one more nickel in China that I have to live. (Plus I live in a big giant apartment building in China)
The gen head is single phase, 4 pole, 50/60 hz (1800 rpm = 60 hz), 24kw max (not sure if it's surge or continuous)
[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 04-19-2016).]
Originally posted by Hudini: This is for my home in Knoxville, Tennessee.
The gen head is single phase, 4 pole, 50/60 hz (1800 rpm = 60 hz), 24kw max (not sure if it's surge or continuous)
Same issue still applies. Generator must be wire to put out 240v Split-phase to feed US Load Centers. You need more data then just saying "single phase, 4 pole, 50/60 hz" etc. If you don't have full specs then get help to find how it's wired. If China gen set is wire only w/ 208/220/240v single phase, you may need to rewire or get another unit. If the unit have 120v outlets you might be ok.
Important to note that Single Phase and Split-phase terms are not the samebecause how Ground and Neutral are connected. Short version of split-phase wiki:
Many US poles have Only 1 HV line (13,500vac or higher) that feeds a local transformer to your house. That line is a single phase w/ earth ground for return path to a nearby substation. You see poles or under ground feeds w/ more phases but all Volts are above Electrical Ground and Neutral. (If you properly convert to DC volts all phases will be Positive Volts reference to Ground/Neutral.)
However the HV is wired... The Final local transformer has a 240v "center tap" secondary winding and ground and neutral are attach to that center wire to give 2 120v 180° out of phase w/ each other to feed residential and most commercial load centers.
180° out of phase w/ each other matter allot... That allows 2 120vac and 240vac using 2 pole breaker. If you properly convert the 2 120v lines in the Load Center to DC, you would get +120 and -120 when neg probe to meter goes to Ground/Neutral. 240 when probes goes to both "Hot" lines.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-19-2016).]
I'm pretty sure it's the same single phase ac generator you find on each and every backup generator sold to the public. Those you find at Home Depot (not the DC to AC invertor types) have a couple 120v outlets and 1 or 2 of the 240v outlets. Makes me wonder how they configure theirs. I do see what you are saying though. Part of the reason I'm asking questions here is to see if anyone has run into this before. I will continue to seek answers as I get the engine ready. If anyone has suggestions for anything I'm all ears.
The battery to start it will need a 120v charger to stay alive.
Some bad news... -Normal car/truck engines can, likely will, have problems for constant loads to run a generator and might not last long. Marine/Aircraft engines are close to or same as stationary Generator engine designs. -Most stationary units are Diesel, Propane, or NG fueled because gas goes "stale" in a few months. Maybe STA-BIL will help but read the FAQ etc. You fill and could be years before you need it. -Check State laws... Stationary units can cause problems w/ State's "EPA." Example: Quest in Wilmington DE got problems for installing "small" Stationary Diesel unit w/o DNREC approval. Building Permits from the City where not only thing(s) needed. (small like ~ size of Fiero on side.)
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-20-2016).]
In the US is 220v 60hz split-phase to produce 2 120v lines 180° out of phase w/ each other in the Load Center,
If Generator is setup to output 208v then many things could see a "Brown Out" condition and that can cause big problems.
What is called 120V in the US usually measures out to 110-115V if you put a meter on it. Same for 220V, it usually ends up closer to 208-210V when actually measured. Much like a 2x4 is not actually 2" by 4".
Question: Maybe I am way out in left field here but.......what is your estimated full/whole house electrical load? IIRC the 2.8 produced 140 hp (104 kW) at 5200 rpm. You will be running your generator at 1800 rpm, which I assume is going to be direct drive, coupled direct shaft to shaft. What HP/Kw will you have available from your 2.8 at 1800rpm and will it be sufficient to handle the full load of your electric needs? Flywheel HP Dyno curve chart for stock 2.8?
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-20-2016).]
What is called 120V in the US usually measures out to 110-115V if you put a meter on it. Same for 220V, it usually ends up closer to 208-210V when actually measured. Much like a 2x4 is not actually 2" by 4".
I have a tester. In both my home and RV (generator) i get 118-119 volts at the outlets.
Question: Maybe I am way out in left field here but.......what is your estimated full/whole house electrical load? IIRC the 2.8 produced 140 hp (104 kW) at 5200 rpm. You will be running your generator at 1800 rpm, which I assume is going to be direct drive, coupled direct shaft to shaft. What HP/Kw will you have available from your 2.8 at 1800rpm and will it be sufficient to handle the full load of your electric needs? Flywheel HP Dyno curve chart for stock 2.8?
I had it added up at one time and will do it again when I get home next week. IIRC it was less than 14kw if everything was running including the a/c. That doesn't include the surge requirement for start up power draw. I'm pretty sure my little house would be fine with the 17kw Generac unit from Costco. Those units have a small engine running at 3600 rpm so they tend to be loud. The 2.8L V6 would easily handle a lightly loaded gen head directly coupled. I can make it very quiet too.
Right now it's mostly in the planning stages. If it wasn't for gasoline having such poor storage qualities it would be an easy decision.
Originally posted by maryjane: Question: Maybe I am way out in left field here but.......what is your estimated full/whole house electrical load? IIRC the 2.8 produced 140 hp (104 kW) at 5200 rpm. You will be running your generator at 1800 rpm, which I assume is going to be direct drive, coupled direct shaft to shaft. What HP/Kw will you have available from your 2.8 at 1800rpm and will it be sufficient to handle the full load of your electric needs? Flywheel HP Dyno curve chart for stock 2.8?
If like some aircraft... You "gear down" w/ belts because engine wants narrow RPM range to get best performance and fuel use but Propellers want different RPM to get best performance.
Many Car Engine likes ~2500 area to get best Fuel consumption but he said generator needs 1800 to get 60hz. Engine might need even higher RPM to make HP needed to spin the generator w/ load on it. More load the harder to spin.
ETA-->Load/Shorten Electric genset and motors can stop them... Electric lawn mowers and others things short out the motor to behave as a brake when shut off. Shorting a Stepper motor will turn it into a brick. Most Stepper Drivers does this to lock them w/o eating power.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-21-2016).]
Originally posted by Formula88: What is called 120V in the US usually measures out to 110-115V if you put a meter on it. Same for 220V, it usually ends up closer to 208-210V when actually measured. Much like a 2x4 is not actually 2" by 4".
US Standard is 120/240 ±5% but you can call the Unity for actual volts on their local grid.
If you measure lower or higher at an output... 1. Check Service Entrance at Main Breaker. If wrong there call electrician or power co. Especially if the feeds don't match. (within 2-3v.) I've seen one hot read low or dead when service wires, Meter, or even Transformer have problems.
2. Many Buildings have voltage drops for F'd wiring and equipment. Just 1 loose screw on a breaker or a outlet can cause big problems including Fires. Example: First thing I did to our house was to check power... Had to fix many problems even tho had new outlets and switches. Many outlets did not have ground wire connected to them.
My house, built in the 60s only has a few grounded outlets throughout from new. Most of them are not. All the ones added in the shop are grounded. There also is not one GFI plug anywhere.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 04-21-2016).]
Originally posted by rogergarrison: My house, built in the 60s only has a few grounded outlets throughout from new. Most of them are not. All the ones added in the shop are grounded. There also is not one GFI plug anywhere.
I Had ground wires and new 3 pin plugs but morons didn't bother to connect wire to the plug.
Many Don't know a dirty PC PSU can and will crash the PC and even shock you w/o ground connected to the case. Dirt and moisture in the PSU can energize the metal case.
Is why I use simple tool to check main plugs and power strips when PC have problems. from How To Test an Electrical Outlet, this has test button to trip GFCI too.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-21-2016).]
Is why I use simple tool to check main plugs and power strips when PC have problems. from How To Test an Electrical Outlet, this has test button to trip GFCI too.
Those are some really handy little tools. The first thing I pull out if I have a small appliance that doesn't work--check the outlet first.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-21-2016).]
Generac 6244 20K beats other whole house generators because of its hands-free operation. It requires no fuel, you only need to hook it up to your natural gas source or any liquid propane source. And best of all, you never have to start it manually when the power goes off. Good choice i think https://www.amazon.com/gp/p...nsg-20?tag=jons07-20
[This message has been edited by JohnyWalter (edited 05-18-2018).]
Generac 6244 20K beats other whole house generators because of its hands-free operation. It requires no fuel, you only need to hook it up to your natural gas source or any liquid propane source. And best of all, you never have to start it manually when the power goes off. Good choice i think https://www.amazon.com/gp/p...nsg-20?tag=jons07-20
Why is a link to a non available item on a 2 year old thread your first post?
[This message has been edited by ls3mach (edited 05-18-2018).]
The thread may be 2 years old, but some advice for anyone planning to install a backup generator, check with your power company first. Fuel selection should be carefully considered, too.
Diesel or gasoline powered units stand for months or even years with only a 5-minute test run on a periodic basis. Fuel will go bad. Not every home has natural gas available. LP gas can be had practically anywhere and a 125 or 250-gallon tank will only cost you a monthly or yearly rental fee plus any fuel used. LP fuel won't go bad over time.
When we were investigating installing a backup generator, we had decided on a Generac 22K. But it really didn't matter what brand we chose, our power company would only allow 1 brand and model automatic transfer switch to be attached to their grid. I never checked to see if it was compatible with the Generac system, though I suppose it was. The problem is that it couldn't handle the size generator that we planned to install.
