I read that a couple of days ago. It didn't really answer anything. With that said... I'm amazed at how much smaller the newer high current and high power devices are, compared to "old school" stuff. An 85 WPC (RMS) Kenwood used to have HUGE finals and heatsinks. Seems that the newer stuff is much more compact and efficient. Since I don't own any of the newer stuff, I can't make a realistic sound quality comparison, but I'm not going to give up my Kenwood AV receiver and my 2x10 three-way tower speakers, any time soon.
Newer stuff can be better, but at a specific price point to get all the bells and whistles people want they cheap out on the quality of the sound reproduction. Cheaper capacitors and transistors, digital amps that are more cost effective but less "natural" sounding. The thing is, though, that with your $300 "home theater in a box" speaker setup or the ear buds that came with your cellphone, you won't be able to tell the difference. You're listening to compressed MP3's anyway.
Invest in high quality speakers and you may think the rest of your consumer grade system sounds worse. It's not the speakers - they're more accurately reproducing the crap they're fed.
The entire chain is only as good as the weakest link, and the dynamic range of modern recordings are so compressed to make them sound better on crap systems, they sound like crap on better systems.
Sourcing the tubes is more difficult, but tubes are still manufactured in Russia. One advantage of a pure Class A amp is there is no conversion of the signal. Analog is input, amplified, then output. Pure analog all the way through. While electronics today brag about "pure digital" the simple truth is we live in an analog world. Anything digital is an approximation of the analog reality, no matter how good that approximation is.
Sourcing the tubes is more difficult, but tubes are still manufactured in Russia. One advantage of a pure Class A amp is there is no conversion of the signal. Analog is input, amplified, then output. Pure analog all the way through. While electronics today brag about "pure digital" the simple truth is we live in an analog world. Anything digital is an approximation of the analog reality, no matter how good that approximation is.
Seems that the newer stuff is much more compact and efficient.
I wonder if that has to do with the advancements in class D amplification?
I asked about this in a similar thread a few weeks back when looking for a new sub amp for our car. I was curious if I should go class D or stick with class AB. Also if I should go with something new or something from the late 80's to mid 90's.
I did a lot of reading on the class D amplification front. I found several home audio forums that seemed to have better discussion on the topic. Car audio forums seemed to have the younger "Mo Power Louder Subs" pervasive element that just didn't really allow for comparison without the bias. I am more from the larger enclosure for higher SPL from less speakers requiring less power ilk, /shrug.
So on the home audio forum it seemed the popular consensus was to use class D for subs and class A or AB for everything else. They got in depth with the whole "mislabeling" of class D as "Digital" which it is not. It does however produce square waves rather than the sweeping waves audio actually has. For that reason early on in class D sound quality degradation was noticeable. As it advanced it became less noticeable although listening for awhile could cause some to end up with headaches from the weird harmonics class D has. Advancement continued and a well built class D is pretty good now, although it still will exhibit a higher THD in comparison to class AB at a magnitude of usually 10x +. That's why they recommend class D for subs and class A or AB for the rest.
That may have something to do with the comparison between older audio equipment and more current audio equipment. It may be smaller and more efficient, possibly by using class D amplification, but is it going to have degradation to the sound quality when compared to an older unit that uses a cleaner but less efficient amplifier? Also, IC Amps have become more commonplace in lower end home audio equipment from what I've observed. These require less components on the board as they are contained in the IC instead. Again though your looking at higher THD and less channel separation from them.
Me, I have never cared for the IC Amps and am not sold on the idea of the more efficient but higher THD square wave class D amplification. I'm also not much for the old 70's early 80's receiver amps. I like the later 80's to late 90's receiver amps with remotes and digital tuners. They may be big. They may be heavy. However, they sound good and have enough bells and whistles to suit me.
Marantz 2275 for the home and MCS 3225 (Modular Component Systems) for the shop.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Aside from all the "whiz bang" features that come on the new A/V systems, I still prefer my old Kenwood (KRV86R) and towers. The speakers were patterned after the old Optimus T200 towers, with 2x10" woofers, and mids (Peerless) and tweets (Dynaco) recommended by an audiophile friend of mine. Since they were built, I'm on my third or 4th set of woofers, and am about to install the second set of Peerless mids.
As an aside... some friends of mine just bought a 55" Vizio flat screen to replace a lightning damaged projection TV. The speakers in the Vizio suck so badly that they asked me to "fix it" for them. My remedy was a very basic ~25 WPC Pyle amplifier, and an ancient pair of Realistic Minimus 7s. They absolutely love it - for less than $100.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-11-2016).]
Aside from all the "whiz bang" features that come on the new A/V systems, I still prefer my old Kenwood (KRV86R) and towers. The speakers were patterned after the old Optimus T200 towers, with 2x10" woofers, and mids (Peerless) and tweets (Dynaco) recommended by an audiophile friend of mine. Since they were built, I'm on my third or 4th set of woofers, and am about to install the second set of Peerless mids.
As an aside... some friends of mine just bought a 55" Vizio flat screen to replace a lightning damaged projection TV. The speakers in the Vizio suck so badly that they asked me to "fix it" for them. My remedy was a very basic ~25 WPC Pyle amplifier, and an ancient pair of Realistic Minimus 7s. They absolutely love it - for less than $100.
By Optimus towers, do you mean the Radio Shack brand Optimus? I seem to recall something like the speakers you describe from around the time I worked there but not positive. I know for awhile we had some bookshelf speakers with some really odd looking ribbon tweeters.
We had a little Bose speaker system for a bit to.
It was actually a pretty impressive little setup for what it was.
Here's a 100 watt per channel (RMS) power amp I designed and built in the early 1970s as a "proof of concept" exercise. As you might surmise, I was also trying to teach myself system integration and package design at the time. The massively oversized heat sink is just something I had left over from another project, and the large power supply required is not shown. It still makes beautiful music after more than 40 years.
I actually sold a few of these amps into professional facilities back then. There are no doubt a few broadcast and recording studio maintenance engineers who have experienced a WTF??? moment when coming across these. The hybrid modules at the heart of the design were low-production "experimental" parts from RCA, and they haven't been available for many decades.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 03-12-2016).]
That's good to hear. I recently bought an old 50s era RCA am clock radio just for the visual aspect and it appears that the amplifier tube is kaput--it is the only one that doesn't glow, and the volume is barely audible on high setting. (I also need to restring the tuner, it slips on the pulley thingie.) Yeah I know--this is not a case of high fidelity or quality sound equipment....
Sourcing the tubes is more difficult, but tubes are still manufactured in Russia. One advantage of a pure Class A amp is there is no conversion of the signal. Analog is input, amplified, then output. Pure analog all the way through. While electronics today brag about "pure digital" the simple truth is we live in an analog world. Anything digital is an approximation of the analog reality, no matter how good that approximation is.
That's good to hear. I recently bought an old 50s era RCA am clock radio just for the visual aspect and it appears that the amplifier tube is kaput--it is the only one that doesn't glow, and the volume is barely audible on high setting. (I also need to restring the tuner, it slips on the pulley thingie.) Yeah I know--this is not a case of high fidelity or quality sound equipment....
Those 50's & 60's era radios usually have tubes with series strung filaments. If one doesn't glow, none of them will. The audio output tube is usually a 50L6 or a 50C5. I collect and repair these old radios.
[This message has been edited by FrugalFiero (edited 03-12-2016).]
By Optimus towers, do you mean the Radio Shack brand Optimus? I seem to recall something like the speakers you describe from around the time I worked there but not positive. I know for awhile we had some bookshelf speakers with some really odd looking ribbon tweeters.
I remember seeing those ribbon tweeters. Can't say I ever heard them, however.
Here are my towers. Started life as Olson Electronics towers. Fragged themselves in short order.
I rebuilt them, patterned after the T200s. The original woofers were actually T200 woofers, ordered from Radio Shack. After the surrounds rotted, they were replaced with woofers from Audio Lab. After my wife's Australian Shepherd (the little m-f'er) ate one of those, they were all replaced with Daytons, from Parts Express. Still suited the cabinets perfectly. The mids in the pics are (I think) Pioneers. I don't like them. I have a pair of the original Peerless mids that will go back in, when I have a few minutes. The original, ~35 year old Dynaco tweeters are still going strong.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-12-2016).]
Here's a 100 watt per channel (RMS) power amp I designed and built in the early 1970s as a "proof of concept" exercise. As you might surmise, I was also trying to teach myself system integration and package design at the time. The huge heat sink is just something I had left over from another project, and the large power supply required is not shown. It still makes beautiful music after more than 40 years.
I actually sold a few of these amps into professional facilities back then. There are no doubt a few broadcast and recording studio maintenance engineers who have experienced a WTF??? moment when coming across these. The hybrid modules at the heart of the design were "experimental" parts from RCA, and they haven't been available for many decades.
That's just freakin' impressive!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-12-2016).]
Those 50's & 60's era radios usually have tubes with series strung filaments. If one doesn't glow, none of them will. The audio output tube is usually a 50L6 or a 50C5. I collect and repair these old radios.
I'll have to look at it again--the component labels and schematic is still affixed to inside back of the case.
Note: Big reason is new amps are small and handle high watts was the development of the MOSFET.
MOSFET is basic same as transistors and does not mater if signal is digital or analog but they don't generate heat and put out allot more power vs. normal or even darlington transistor.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
That's good to hear. I recently bought an old 50s era RCA am clock radio just for the visual aspect and it appears that the amplifier tube is kaput--it is the only one that doesn't glow, and the volume is barely audible on high setting. (I also need to restring the tuner, it slips on the pulley thingie.) Yeah I know--this is not a case of high fidelity or quality sound equipment....
Google "vacuum tubes for sale" and you'll find a number of online retailers and some Ebay links. An audio forum would also be a good place to ask for merchant recommendations. The NOS Valves link I posted above would be my first stop. He rebuilds vintage equipment as well as making his new design amps. He's been around a while and is well known on the Klipsch forum I'm a member of.
Here are my towers. Started life as Olson Electronics towers. Fragged themselves in short order. Click to show
I rebuilt them, patterned after the T200s. The original woofers were actually T200 woofers, ordered from Radio Shack. After the surrounds rotted, they were replaced with woofers from Audio Lab. After my wife's Australian Shepherd (the little m-f'er) ate one of those, they were all replaced with Daytons, from Parts Express. Still suited the cabinets perfectly. The mids in the pics are (I think) Pioneers. I don't like them. I have a pair of the original Peerless mids that will go back in, when I have a few minutes. The original, ~35 year old Dynaco tweeters are still going strong.
Ahh, yeah those were a bit before the time I spent working at Radio Shack. I checked the link you provided for different years and found the towers I was thinking of while I was employed there. They are on page 12-13 in this catalog, looks like they were called Optimus 1100's at that time.
Still, that is pretty neat that they've been going good for so many years with speaker replacements. Dayton Audio has made good speakers as far back as I can remember. I've never owned any, but have seen and listened to several friends had over the years. Someday if I ever get the chance to set up a home theater (when the kids are out of the house) I'll build a set of towers and satellites which will more than likely use Dayton Audio drivers. I built a sub and satellites system back when I worked at Radio Shack using one of their 12" DVC subs and a home built crossover/level control I designed for it. I liked the way that one turned out and a friend I worked with liked it also so he paid me to build him one just like it, LOL.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 03-12-2016).]
Yes, in the case of probably 80% of consumer goods, not just audio. My old junk 70s ADA stereo in the garage, has outlasted and outperformed everything Ive bought since for the house. I think Ive gone thru 4-5 other name brand systems.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-13-2016).]
Those 50's & 60's era radios usually have tubes with series strung filaments. If one doesn't glow, none of them will. The audio output tube is usually a 50L6 or a 50C5. I collect and repair these old radios.
They also have capacitors that blow up...at least mine did.
The Radio Shack Minimus 7's with the ribbon tweeters sound really good; open, airy, good spacial imaging and detail. The bottom end is lacking as with any 4" woofer mini speaker, but the bass that is reproduced is solid, just lacking the bottom octave. I had a pair in the shop for years, finally the foam surround on the woofers deteriorated. I need to replace the woofers......
Wow, I come back for a visit, and there's a topic about audio!
Good design is good design, and there were good and bad 30 years ago (for instance) and there's good and bad now.
I've been through many iterations. My first system was a Nikko 28WPC receiver with Becker 3 way speakers, a Kenwood cassette deck and turntable. The TT got upgraded to a Bang & Olufsen. The Nikko is still operational, in my garage, running a set of AR speakers that are similar to the Minimus 7s, but they're only there for noise.
When I got married, I picked up a used Harman Kardon PM640 - 35WPC Integrated Amp. My son uses it at college (See a theme here?). It drove Celestion 3s, which I still have, but not hooked up to anything. An Adcom CD player and a B&O Turntable (not the same one) were my sources. This system morphed a bit. The Adcom's drive belt broke (I have the part somewhere, and I'll repair it, eventually), ultiamtely replaced by a Panasonic BluRay player. The B&O developed a grounding problem, and MMC2 cartridges are ridiculously expensive, so I pulled the 'table until later. The Celestions were replaced by Paradigm Monitor 7s (first series, I believe). Where I didn't have enough bass out of the C3s, I didn't have enough power from the H/K for the M7s, so I bought an Adcom GFA555 200WPC amp and, though I wanted (and almost got on eBay) a Moscode Minuet preamp, I bought a VanAlstine SuperPas 3i, instead. After retubing it (www.eurotubes.com), it was marvelous. The Paradigms weren't perfect, but they could shake the house! Later, as the kids grew up, we had to move stuff around to fit everyone, so I pulled the stereo apart and stored it in the basement. Unfortunately, we had an epic rainstorm one day, and the Paradigms got ruined. I had less space to rebuild the stereo, so I sold the Adcom and bought an Onix A-120 (120WPC) Integrated Amp and traded the VanAlstine (which I kind of regret) for Paradigm Studio 20 V3 speakers. Aside from having to buy stands for the speakers, I broke even nicely. The Paradigms were a little shrill with the Onix, so I bought an Arcam Alpha 8R (65WPC) Integrated Amp. This was nearly tonal and imaging perfection, and I kept this system for probably longer than any other. In fact, I think that I started a thread about wanting bigger, thumpier speakers, but not wanting to part with the nearly perfect pair. I did buy a new TT, a Project Debut III, and quickly replaced the stock cartridge with an Audio Technica AT440MLa. It took a few years, but opportunity knocked. I had auditioned the Atlantic Technology AT2 bookshelves at AT (They're a few towns away from me) with the company's chief designer, and found out that one of the distributors that I work with was losing the AT line. He offered me the AT2s at a good price, and I was about to bite, because these big bookshelves, about the same size as my Studio 20s, had more bass extension than was believable from such a small cabinet. Then, checking his computer, found a pair of AT1s (floorstanding), and offered them to me at the same price, shipped. I jumped on those. Even though they take up the same amount of floor space that the Paradigms did on their stands, I don't think that my wife really likes them, still. I wired them to the Arcam and found that the little British amp doesn't have great control of the bass. It was very boomy, so I pulled it and plugged in the H/K. OK, but bright. That's why I gave it to my son. He's got Paradigm Mini Monitors, and it's a good pairing. Ultimately, I put the Onix into the system (similar to the H/K, but gobs more power), and, with a little adjustment of the speakers (tweeter level control), it's what I'm listening to - in fact, running Pandora on my Roku right now, playing Buckethead.
So, old electronics? Heck yeah. My Onix is 12 years old, the Arcam is 14 and the H/K is 31. But I'd say newer speakers. There were only a few "elite" speakers back on the day, but, with CAD and a greater variety of materials and techniques, I'd be hard pressed to jump on a pair of Snell E2 speakers for anything but the right price (which probably wouldn't be a fair price to the seller). Newer disc players will be able to play DVD Audio and/or SACD, if you care about that stuff. And you have to be careful about older turntables, but there are some good ones out there. Of course, there are some good new ones, as well.
This is a fun hobby.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, and I've been given an edict: I cannot buy anything else without selling, first.
[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 03-14-2016).]
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