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Only a 'Two Star' caliphate: Muslim theologians, educators 'lukewarm' on Daesh (ISIS) by rinselberg
Started on: 02-28-2016 07:49 PM
Replies: 40 (1595 views)
Last post by: rinselberg on 03-04-2016 07:11 PM
rinselberg
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Report this Post02-28-2016 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
September 24, 2014
Lauren Markoe, Religious News Service; Huffington Post
"Muslim Scholars Release Open Letter To Islamic State Meticulously Blasting Its Ideology"

More than 120 Muslim scholars from around the world joined an open letter to the “fighters and followers” of the Islamic State, denouncing them as un-Islamic by using the most Islamic of terms.

Relying heavily on the Quran, the 18-page letter... picks apart the extremist ideology of the militants who have left a wake of brutal death and destruction in their bid to establish a transnational Islamic state in Iraq and Syria.

For the entire column:
http://www.huffingtonpost.c...state_n_5878038.html

The letter, which was given the title of "Open Letter to Al-Baghdadi", is available in English and online:
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi declared himself the caliph (top dog; Muslim número uno) of the so-called caliphate, the project of the Islamic State, which is also referred to as Daesh (Arabic) and by the acronyms ISIS and ISIL.

The letter has 175 signatories. There were 126 from the very start, all listed at the end of the letter, and 49 "latecomers" that are listed on the website. I do not know what is required to become a signatory or even how to inquire about that process. All of the signatories are Muslim, judging by their names and the positions that they hold. The list includes signatories from 40 nations around the world. On a percentage basis, the U.S. has a large number (28). Egypt, Jordan and the United Kingdom also "score high" on a percentage basis. Among the notable signatories from Egypt: the current Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shawqi Allam, and his immediate predecessor, Ali Gomaa, along with the Vice President and the Dean of the Faculty of Shari’ah and Law at of Al-Azhar University.


I think I’ve heard that name before


Muhammad Sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa Sallam (pictured above) led the first Muslims franchise to the All-Arabian Conference Championship in 630 CE. Today’s English-speaking fanbase just calls him “The Prophet”.


Al-Azhar University is in Cairo. It's associated with Al-Azhar Mosque (also in Cairo) and is Egypt's oldest degree-granting university. Conventional wisdom would likely have it pegged as Sunni Islam’s "most prestigious" university. When President Obama went to Egypt and delivered his widely publicized "New Beginning" speech on June 4, 2009, he spoke at Cairo University, and the event was co-hosted by Al-Azhar University.

The Islamic Republic, or Iran (if you prefer) is conspicuous by its absence on the list of 175 signatories from around the world: not even one.

This is a list of the 40 nations that have at least one signatory of the letter.
Click to show

There are two Palestinian signatories from Jerusalem. One is the Mufti of Jerusalem.

The website links to a Facebook page with over 121,000 "Likes". Let me save anyone and everyone the trouble of pointing out that this is less than one tenth of one tenth of one percent (0.0001 part or 0.01 of a percent) of the worldwide Muslim population. I am not pushing this letter forward as any particular kind of "big deal" with respect to the potential demise of ISIS, or more generally, with respect to the entire spectrum of Islamic extremism.

What's interesting about the letter is how it refutes the notion that the ISIS ideology is an accurate or even a plausible interpretation of Islam, as a faith that is derived from the Qur'an and the other foundational Islamic texts, and clarified by close to 1400 years of literature (think "essay"; not "novel") from historically recognized Islamic authorities, and the parallel history of authoritative opinions that most Muslims and non-Muslims alike would only be able to categorize under the general rubric of "Islamic law".

Aside from English and the original Arabic, the letter has been translated into French, German, Dutch, Spanish, Persian (also known as Farsi; think "Iran"), Turkish, Hungarian and Bosnian; all these translations are available on the website as downloads.

The website also has a provision for endorsing the letter. This asks only for a name and an email address. I did it, because I was hoping that this would reveal the number of people who have endorsed the letter in this manner, and perhaps some other information; but so far--nothing in that category. I only did it a few hours ago.


Zero to Hero

The modern way of representing numbers, using positional notation with nine digits and the all-important placeholder (zero) emerged on the Indian subcontinent before spreading to Muslim-ruled lands during the 8th century. Fibonacci’s book, Liber Abaci, introduced European mathematicians to “Arabic" numbers and decimal fractions in 1202. Do you know the "secret" that is hidden within the seemingly abstract squiggles that represent the digits one through nine and zero?


CLICK IMAGE TO ENLARGE

In Europe, mathematicians, alchemists and other scholars were the early adopters, but it would take about five hundred years after Fibo’s book, before all of Europe’s bankers and bookkeepers were on board.

If you tried to calculate the number of people whose heads exploded from trying to calculate with Roman numerals, using Roman numerals, your head would explode.



The first page of the letter, called the "Executive Summary", is a list of 24 specific denunciations of the Islamic State ideology, as perceived (presumably) by a general consensus among the signatories of the letter. Among the 24, there are some that "reach out and grab me" more immediately than the others:

1. It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an—or part of a verse—to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas, and one cannot "cherry-pick" Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith.

5. It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

7. It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.

8. Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.

12. The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.

13. It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

22.. It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.

23. Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.

24. After the death of the Prophet, Islam does not require anyone to emigrate anywhere.

The last one (24) denounces the canard that Muslims who migrate (or attempt to migrate) across international boundaries can legitimately claim to be acting in accordance with an Islamic obligation to "spread Islam". Some may believe that, but according to the letter, they are misinformed. (Singled out, because this canard was posted as if it were factual on this forum some time ago; I distinctly remember that.)

The body of the letter, consisting of 16 pages in the English language download (PDF format), enlarges on these 24 specific denunciations of ISIS ideology with explanatory text that is interspersed with supporting quotations from the Qur'an, the Hadith and other sources that are deemed as relevant. There are 65 footnotes: 65 different references to specific writings, books and transcripts, from the days of the Prophet himself, all the way forward to the very year (2014) of the letter. This includes references to video segments. Each of the 24 denunciations is enlarged upon in the same order as they are listed in the Executive Summary.


Nobody Expects The Spanish Inquisition

The Spanish Inquisition got off to a shaky start in 1492, when it was sidetracked on the very un-Christian task of forcibly converting or expelling the Jewish demographic en masse from the Spanish domains of Europe.

By some accounts, the Inquisition managed to finish on a high note after returning to its truly Christian purpose of addressing and correcting many instances of corruption and other malpractices among Catholic clergy and educators.


Select the “play” icon for a few seconds of recorded audio. Come on, you know you want to.

Reacting to the spasm of the Inquisition’s anti-Semitic startup glitches (beta version..?) thousands of European Jews found refuge in the Muslim-ruled lands of Northern Africa, Turkey and the Middle East.

It is impossible to know exactly how many Jews went into exile. Many scholars say about 100,000.



This is followed by a brief "Conclusion", which ends with this:
 
quote
Reconsider all your actions; desist from them; repent from them; cease harming others and return to the religion of mercy. God  says in the Qur’an: ‘Say [that God declares]: “O My servants who have been prodigal against their own souls, do not despair of God’s mercy. Truly God forgives all sins. Truly He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.”’ (Al-Zumar, 39:53).

The next page presents a quotation from Hadith--a paragraph--that is attributed to the 4th Caliph (656-661), Ali ibn Abi Taleb:
 
quote
When you see the black flags, remain where you are and do not move your hands or your feet. Thereafter there shall appear a feeble insignificant folk. Their hearts will be like fragments of iron. They will have the state. They will fulfil neither covenant nor agreement. They will call to the truth, but they will not be people of the truth. Their names will be parental attributions, and their aliases will be derived from towns. Their hair will be free-flowing like that of women. This situation will remain until they differ among themselves. Thereafter, God will bring forth the Truth through whomever He wills.

The remainder of that page is an explanation of how this paragraph from Hadith can be deconstructed (in the literary sense) as a foreshadowing or prescience of the Islamic State, looking forward almost 1400 years from the earliest times of Islam, less than 30 full years after the life of the Prophet.

This page (in my estimation) is a literary flourish. Think "style points". I do not regard it as a substantive element of the letter.

The letter ends with the list of the 126 original signatories.


Marrakesh Express

Muslim-ruled Morocco was the first foreign government to formally acknowledge the United States as a sovereign nation after the Declaration of Independence in 1776.


Mohammed III, Sultan of Morocco, and George Washington.

On December 20, 1777, when the Continental Army was encamped at Valley Forge, Morocco became the first foreign nation to recognize the independence of the American colonies. For more:
http://moroccoonthemove.com...sthash.TSEuWMFn.dpuf


Let me enlarge on how the letter itself enlarges on the topic of jihad; specifically, with respect to this particular denunciation of ISIS, from the Executive Summary:
 
quote
8. Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.

The right cause, the right purpose and the right rules of conduct--but how does the letter narrow down what is "right", from an Islamic perspective? This is part of their enlargement:
 
quote
The Reason behind Jihad: The reason behind jihad for Muslims is to fight those who fight them, not to fight anyone who does not fight them, nor to transgress against anyone who has not transgressed against them.

God’s words in permitting jihad are: ‘Permission is granted to those who fight because they have been wronged. And God is truly able to help them; those who were expelled from their homes without right, only because they said: “Our Lord is God”. Were it not for God's causing some people to drive back others, destruction would have befallen the monasteries, and churches, and synagogues, and mosques in which God's Name is mentioned greatly. Assuredly God will help those who help Him. God is truly Strong, Mighty.’ (Al-Hajj, 22: 39-40).

Thus, jihad is tied to safety, freedom of religion, having been wronged, and eviction from one’s land. These two verses were revealed after the Prophet and his companions suffered torture, murder, and persecution for thirteen years at the hands of the “idolaters”. Hence, there is no such thing as offensive, aggressive jihad just because people have different religions or opinions. This is the position of Abu Hanifa, the Imams Malik and Ahmad and all other scholars including Ibn Taymiyyah--with the exception of some scholars of the Shari’a school. [Editorial note: rinselberg says "To hell with those particular scholars of the Shari’a school.]

That's almost verbatim from the letter. It was presented as a single paragraph; I divided it into three shorter paragraphs. I also enclosed the word "idolaters" in quotation marks, to emphasize a terminology that could well have been understood by Muslims in the times of the Prophet in a way that would not be acceptable to Muslims of today.

This part of the letter explains that the concept of militant jihad or jihad waged with deadly force is only valid as a way for Muslims to defend themselves and their religion. Muslims waging an aggressive war? That's an Islamic "no-no". The implication of the letter is that ISIS is waging a war of aggression and calling it a "jihad", which--according to the signatories--is a self-contradiction in terms.

The letter references a passage in the Qur'an (22: 39-40) that declares that Muslims were right in the eyes of Allah when they were fighting to defend themselves and their freedom to practice their religion against aggression-minded "idolaters".

Remark that Qur'an (22: 39-40) refers to monasteries, churches and synagogues, in the same breath as "mosques". This describes an episode when Muslims were not only fighting to defend themselves and their mosques, but also to protect Christians and Jews and their places of worship. So the Muslims were fighting to defend the People of The Book; i.e., the three Abrahamic faiths. The implication is that the "idolaters" that the Muslims were fighting against were not among the People of the Book, but were of some other ilk.

The modern day reader is most likely (I think) to interpret "idolaters" as pagans in the Prophet's time that worshipped tribal deities. Or could it be that the ranks of the "idolaters" consisted of--or included as allies or perhaps "enablers"--Zoroastrians? Hindus? Buddhists? Atheists? All that is somewhat immaterial, in the context of this Qur'anic verse that establishes that the Muslims were fighting during this episode of the Prophet's time in a purely defensive way.


Here's looking at you, kid

Look upwards in the main reading room of the Thomas Jefferson Building (part of the Library of Congress) and you will see a ceiling mural that was painted in 1896 by Edwin Howland Blashfield. The mural depicts the twelve nations and historical epochs that Blashfield wanted to portray as having contributed the most to the cultural synthesis that had become American Civilization. Islam was honored for its historical traditions of inquiry and scholarship, embodied by Muslims such as Ibn al-Haytham, whom Neil deGrasse Tyson has described as the first modern scientist; and Ibn Khaldun, whose writings are considered foundational to the modern disciplines of sociology, cultural anthropology, economics, and history and historiography.


CLICK IMAGE TO ENLARGE

In terms of an old fashioned clock face, ISLAM is at "seven o'clock".



How about número trece? Another denunciation of ISIS from the Executive Summary:
 
quote
13. It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

The letter backs up its denunciation with this:
 
quote
Coercion and Compulsion: God says: ‘you are not a taskmaster over them’ (Al-Ghashiyah, 88: 22); and: ‘There is no compulsion in religion. Rectitude has become clear from error …’ (Al-Baqarah, 2: 256); and: ‘And if your Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Would you then compel people until they are believers?’ (Yunus, 10: 99); and: ‘And say, “The truth [that comes] from your Lord; so whoever will, let him believe, and whoever will, let him disbelieve”.’ (Al-Kahf, 18: 29); and: ‘You have your religion and I have my religion’ (Al-Kafirun, 109: 6).

It is known that the verse: ‘There is no compulsion in religion’ was revealed after the Conquest of Mecca, hence, no one can claim that it was abrogated. You have coerced people to convert to Islam just as you have coerced Muslims to accept your views. You also coerce everyone living under your control in every matter, great or small, even in matters which are between the individual and God . In Al-Raqqa, Deir el-Zor and other areas under your control, armed groups who call themselves ‘al-hisbah’ make their rounds, taking people to task as though they were assigned by God  to execute His commandments. Yet, not a single one of the Companions [companions or friends of the Prophet] did this.

This is not enjoining the right and honourable and forbidding the wrong; rather, it is coercion, assault, and constant, random intimidation. If God wanted this, He would have obliged them over the minutest details of His religion. God says: ‘… Have they not realised, those who believe, that had God willed, He could have guided all mankind? ...’ (Al-Ra’d, 13: 31); and: ‘If We will We will send down to them a sign from the heaven before which their necks will remain bowed in humility.’ (Al-Shu’ara’, 26: 4).

The accusatory "you" refers specifically to ISIS. It's unambiguous. It follows directly from how the letter is named and from the "Dear ISIS" salutation at the start of the second page, immediately after the Executive Summary.

Um... OK. It doesn't actually say "Dear ISIS".


Towering Achievement

Fazlur R. Khan was a 20th century American Muslim architect and structural engineer whose design innovations were instrumental in creating two of Chicago’s tallest skyscrapers, the John Hancock Center and the Willis Tower.


CLICK IMAGE TO ENLARGE



The letter offers something that I find of particular interest in the way of enlarging upon another of its 24 denunciations:
 
quote
10. It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.

To wit:
 
quote
As for jizyah [or jizya], there are two types of jizyah in Shari’ah (Islamic Law). The first type is that which is levied while the subjects are ‘readily being subdued’. This applies to those who fought Islam, as is understood from God’s words: ‘Fight those who do not believe in God, nor in the Last Day, and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, nor do they practice the religion of truth, from among of those who have been given the Scripture, until they pay the jizya tribute, readily being subdued.’ (Al-Tawbah, 9: 29).

As is clarified by a preceding verse in this Surah (chapter of the Qur’an), those intended by this verse are parties who preemptively attacked Muslims: ‘Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger - initiating against you first? Are you afraid of them? God is more worthy of your fear if you are believers.’ (Al-Tawbah, 9:13).

The second type of jizyah is levied on those who do not wage war against Islam; it is levied on them instead of zakat (which only Muslims pay and which is higher in percentage than the jizyah) through a covenant and without harshness. Omar ibn Al-Khattab agreed to call it ‘charity’ (sadaqah). [This was an accommodation towards the Christians, who were more agreeable to calling it “charity”; thus, a concession over terminology—a distinction without a difference.] The jizyah is then deposited to the state treasury and is distributed among citizens, including needy Christian citizens as Omar did during his caliphate.

This just happens to segue very nicely to my next "decorative element"...


Jizya: Power to the Dhimmis

There is always a host of Internet blowhards trying to spread misconceptions about the Muslim tax levy upon non-Muslims, known as “jizya”; and the status of non-Muslims subject to Muslim rule, who are referred to as “Dhimmi”.

The fallacies (or stratagems) of these dumpster-diving website creators, bloggers and email circulators are exposed by astutely recognizing the ways in which Islam differentiates between conflict situations, when Muslims and non-Muslims are violently at odds; and non-conflict situations, when accords have been reached that--were they to be honored by an Islamic governance that doesn't stop at preaching Islam but actually puts Islam into practice--would enable non-Muslims to live peaceably and with dignity in Muslim-ruled lands.



Many messages on this forum, and from many different forum members, touching upon Islam and Muslims. That's the way it's always been, as far back as the day that I signed up. Whatever your thoughts about this message, or my entire "body of work" on this topic, I think you would be hard put to say with any real conviction that I have not done my "homework" to an extent that is commensurate with the amount of time and effort that I've invested in "bloviating" about my "findings".

I hope you enjoyed this production as much as I enjoyed bringing it to you.

Please stay tuned for this last "commercial" message.


WWMD

The Grand Mufti of Zimbabwe, Ismail Menk, recounts a humorous anecdote to illustrate something about the character of the Prophet Mohammed.


Select the "play" icon for 90 seconds of recorded audio

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-09-2017).]

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Report this Post02-28-2016 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The Great Post Of Pennock's, or TGPOP (acronymed, for convenience), owes part of its inspiration to the latter half of the 20th century, when "The medium is the message" meme was popularized by Marshall McLuhan (1911-1980).

TGPOP comprises an ornamental facade of eight decorative elements that overlay a single, long, recessed load-bearing structure.

The load-bearing structure is the Open Letter to Al-Baghdadi, a 24-point denunciation of the Islamic State (also: ISIS, ISIL, Daesh, "caliphate") that was published online in 3Q 2014, along with the names of 175 Muslim signatories from around the world. This presents itself to visitors in the form of a traditional online discussion forum post, using the tried and true techniques of expository writing. The lingua franca is English.

As visitors encounter the eight decorative elements of the ornamental facade, they are transported along a timeline that spans the almost 1400-year continuum of Islamic history. The decorative elements are set off with a distinctive font style, and invite visitors to interact with thematic, 2-D imagery and prerecorded audio content.

TGPOP was constructed within a roughly 30-hour window that began shortly after midnight (PST) on February 26, 2016. Except for some minor finishing work, the ornamental facade was completed before any construction was started on the load-bearing structure.

The TGPOP consortium has already submitted paperwork requesting that The Great Post Of Pennock's receive recognition from the UNESCO World Heritage Centre as a designated world cultural site.

Planning is underway for the addition of overnight visitor accommodations and an underground parking structure, as well as improved access from downtown using existing rapid transit modes. Airport shuttle service is also in the pipeline.

When TGPOP's surround sound system is completed (1Q 2017), the visitor experience will be enhanced with a dynamically changing selection of musical recordings. The top slot on this chart will likely belong to the 1959 performance of the Concierto de Aranjuez, from the renowned Miles Davis album "Sketches of Spain". Could any sound track be more evocative of the sublime grandeur of modern Spain's medieval Islamic heritage?


Click the play icon for 90 seconds of prerecorded audio

The Great Post Of Pennock's is open to visitors 24/7. Admission is free. Here's how to get there:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/115585.html

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 06-24-2016).]

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Report this Post02-28-2016 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ALOHA SNACK-BAR !

So, you have finally allowed your *Silicon Valley muslim fetish* to run even more wild, eh?

Maybe it's time to start a Gofundme page for you and see if we can't raise enough for a one-way ticket to Islamabad for your obsessed azz.

Perhaps a nice indefinite stay in Raqqa or Aleppo so that you could astound the locals with your "profound knowledge" of all things muslim.

You would quickly learn that the fantasies in your sheltered California head and the hard realities "on the ground" are vastly different.....IF you survive.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 02-29-2016).]

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Report this Post02-29-2016 01:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
The letter has 175 signatories.

Out of 1.7 billion Muslims (22% of the global population) they got a grand mufti-like total of 175 Muslims to sign.


Keep on keepin on..
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Report this Post02-29-2016 07:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Um... OK. I guess I could be letting my subconscious mind process this, and explore what utterance I may (or may not) offer in response here.

In the meantime, here's a new Feel Good story from Pakistan:

Pakistan has hanged the former police bodyguard who shot dead Punjab's governor over his opposition to blasphemy laws, officials say.

Mumtaz Qadri killed Salman Taseer in Islamabad in 2011, in a murder that shocked the country.

Qadri was hailed as a hero by some Islamist groups, and thousands of hard-line activists protested to show their support for him at the time. . . .


BBC News report discusses changing dynamics within Pakistan involving Pak Army, rival Islamist factions.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35684452

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-29-2016).]

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Report this Post02-29-2016 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I haven't even viewed any of this YouTube video, but I am nominating it, because of its title, for "Best in the category of British understatement"

ISIS…it was just not my cup of tea. British mum speaks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZpTmAIH7XM

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-29-2016).]

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Report this Post02-29-2016 01:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FatsClick Here to Email FatsSend a Private Message to FatsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting.

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Report this Post02-29-2016 01:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Out of 1.7 billion Muslims (22% of the global population) they got a grand mufti-like total of 175 Muslims to sign.




I'm wondering this as well.
Also who / which leaders didn't sign?
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Report this Post02-29-2016 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Also who / which leaders didn't sign?


NOT ONE Iranian
NOT ONE Saudi (of any real importance)
NONE of the Wahhabis


The very SAME ones that are funding, aiding and abetting ISIS
The very SAME ones that this "open letter" was conspicuously NOT addressed to.
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Report this Post02-29-2016 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:
NOT ONE Saudi (of any real importance)
NONE of the Wahhabis


The very SAME ones that are funding, aiding and abetting ISIS


And the West continues to fund, aid and abet the Saudis, the Wahhabis.

We sell and give the arms, we buy their oil, we fight for them. Indirectly and directly the Western powers are responsible for the rise of ISIS IMO.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 02-29-2016).]

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Report this Post02-29-2016 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:


And the West continues to fund, aid and abet the Saudis, the Wahhabis.

We sell and give the arms, we buy their oil, we fight for them. Indirectly and directly the Western powers are responsible for the rise of ISIS IMO.



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Report this Post02-29-2016 03:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And some would vote to give these governments more tax money.
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Report this Post02-29-2016 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pokeyfiero:



Hahaha I wouldn't go that far but like I said I think west is in some ways responsible for the situation in the Middle East that gave rise to ISIS.
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Report this Post02-29-2016 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it is probably somewhat myopic to focus so narrowly on the number of signatories, as that number is not an accurate head count of everyone that is active in the enterprise of countering extremist messages and ideologies.

One of the signatories (#89) is a university professor named Mohammad Abdul Samad Muhanna who is listed as Advisor to the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Al-Sharif

The Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Al-Sharif is (Dr.) Sheikh Ahmed al-Tayeb, came up for me recently in connection with the creation of the Al-Azhar Online Observatory, which--according to a report in Al-Monitor--"aims to monitor the erroneous ideas that terrorist groups promote on their websites... and prepare academic responses to educate the youth about [the destructive character] of [extremist] ideas."

Ahmed al-Tayeb himself is not listed as a signatory.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/p...s.html#ixzz41b4y6qix

Ahmed al-Tayeb would appear to be the link that connects the Al-Azhar Online Observatory with the Sawab Center, which is an online social media messaging project for the purpose of countering extremist propaganda and promulgating moderate ideas. Sawab Center receives funding from the U.S. and the UAE.

Here in the United States, an Indiana-based initiative, Reclamation Studios, is developing and distributing video content to promote an anti-extremist, anti-jihadist mindset and culture among young Muslim Americans.

In the United Kingdom, a new online magazine, focused on fighting the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria’s propaganda and instead spreading a moderate and peaceful view of Islam, is being published by a group of concerned British imams and Muslim scholars, the Guardian reports.

The online publication is called Haqiqah and, according to its website, aims “to expose the reality behind ISIS.” The site is sleek and heavy on visuals, showcasing a concerted attempt to fight ISIS’s polished and aggressive Twitter, YouTube and web recruitment campaigns.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-29-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

I think it is probably somewhat myopic to focus ....


Cute Ronald.
Very cute.
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Report this Post02-29-2016 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
I think it is probably somewhat myopic to focus so narrowly on the number of signatories, as that number is not an accurate head count of everyone that is active in the enterprise of countering extremist messages and ideologies.




Yeah, I bet it's at least double that 120 amount.



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Report this Post03-01-2016 01:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think you would be hard put to find a mosque in this country of any size that doesn't have some kind of project or program that is packaged for the Muslim moderate-ization (opposite of radicalization) "market". Same for the U.K. and Europe and many other countries.

Again, this myopic obsession with "how many signatories". I like this Open Letter to al-Baghdadi as a handy reference to put up against extremist ideologies. The letter writers and signatories are (presumably) focused on countering one particular extremist mutilation (fits the context) of Islam--namely ISIS; but the letter provides knowledge about Islam that could also be used to support persuasive, issues-based beatdowns of other Islamist gangs such as al-Qaeda, or any of the mosques and madrasas around the world that are involved in radicalizing.

I expect to use the knowledge about Islam that is contained in this letter as another tool in my toolbox: the toolbox of online information resources that I have developed for myself as part of my longstanding and continuing efforts to undermine some of the extremist narratives that have taken hold right here on O/T--such as:
 
quote
Islam is at war with the United States. Islam’s message is "Give up your own religion, or your atheism, and become a Muslim, or submit to a discriminatory and humiliating tax (jizya) that is to be levied upon non-Muslims, or resist and be killed." Radical Muslims want to chop your head off. Moderate Muslims want radical Muslims to chop your head off. Muslims that are not on the side of militant jihadism are not "real" Muslims.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-01-2016).]

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Report this Post03-01-2016 01:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will tell you when I will care how many it is.


When I see people of "The Religion of peace " Kill the the people of "The not really peaceful religion"

See how that doesn't work? Good luck with your peeps though.

Nothing is going to stop this **** . We are going to kill 500 of them to 1 of ours for a long long time.
They like it this way. We are making them happy
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Report this Post03-01-2016 03:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FatsClick Here to Email FatsSend a Private Message to FatsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think I agree with rinselberg on this one.

It doesn't really matter how many signed, just the fact that it exists and there are people willing to stand by it is a step. Perhaps a tiny step, and one I don't particularly trust, but it could be a step in the right direction.

(You have to forgive me for not being 100% for the main group of people that wish to see me dead, and have said they will lie to get to that end. )

Brad
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Report this Post03-01-2016 07:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pokeyfiero:

I will tell you when I will care how many it is.


When I see people of "The Religion of peace " Kill the the people of "The not really peaceful religion"

See how that doesn't work? Good luck with your peeps though.

Nothing is going to stop this **** . We are going to kill 500 of them to 1 of ours for a long long time.
They like it this way. We are making them happy


And the Industrial military complex will be happy as well!
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Report this Post03-01-2016 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, there ya go--can't make anyone happy. Military Industrial Complex=jobs...and people are always clamoring for the US to bring manufacturing jobs back to CONUS. win-win.
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Report this Post03-01-2016 07:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

maryjane

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Member since Apr 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by Fats:

I think I agree with rinselberg on this one.

It doesn't really matter how many signed, just the fact that it exists and there are people willing to stand by it is a step. Perhaps a tiny step, and one I don't particularly trust, but it could be a step in the right direction.

(You have to forgive me for not being 100% for the main group of people that wish to see me dead, and have said they will lie to get to that end. )

Brad


Yeah, it's kinda like this thread. The fact that it exists is a step toward.............well, ...... something.
As you said, it's a tiny step toward that 'something', but a step toward it nonetheless....
(I need to dig out my old Starrett micrometer so I can accurately measure the size of that tiny step Brad
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Report this Post03-01-2016 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How would a social media expert go about attributing value or importance to this letter? I am not a social media expert, but I just tried something. I used Google to search for web pages that contain the character string "www.lettertobaghdadi.com". Anyone looking at such a webpage is being presented with "click access" to the letter. Here is some of what was retrieved by Google:


lettertobaghdadi.com has a global Alexa Rank of 937,750, and receives about 555 unique visitors per day. Estimated ad revenue of this site may be up to $180 per month. Its web server is hosted in United States and uses IP address 69.195.124.251. The Google PageRank of this website is 0/10.

OK--I don't know whether an Alexa Rank of 937 thousand and change is good or bad. But there it is.

There's more here:
https://www.rankstand.org/www/lettertobaghdadi.com


There is a Twitter hashtag #lettertobaghdadi and it looks to my eyes to be interesting in terms of some of the people that have used this hashtag, but all of the tweets that have used this hashtag--from the day that the letter was published online (on or about September 20, 2014) all the way forwards to today--fit on a single page.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/lettertobaghdadi


Google also returned this webpage, from the National Centre Of Excellence For Islamic Studies Australia

Click to show

There was a link on that page to another page with this:

Fatwas, rulings and authoritative statements against terrorism in Islam

The teachings of Islam prohibit terrorism and condemn unwarranted violence and bloodshed. Muslim scholars and leaders from all parts of the world in the past and present have repeatedly condemned terrorism and issued Islamic legal rulings or fatwas against terrorism and related acts. Many of these directly respond to an actual incident of terrorism in which civilians were targeted by extremists claiming to act in the name of Islam.

That is followed by a list of discussion points, including the Amman Message of 2004, which I have previously bloviated about at some length,
http://nceis.unimelb.edu.au...t_terrorism_in_islam


Second Google search using "lettertobaghdadi"

Turned up some media presenters, including MSNBC's Chris Hayes. All from about a year ago.
http://muckrack.com/link/od...n-letter-to-baghdadi

That's as far I have taken this idea.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-01-2016).]

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Report this Post03-01-2016 09:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You're reaching I'll give you that.
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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

You're reaching I'll give you that.


The only thing he does NOT seem to be reaching for is an airline ticket to Syria, or *anywhere* that is majority muslim.

Pontificating from the safety and inexperience of Silicon Valley California via the internet appears to be Mr. Inselberg's forte'.

His fantasy romantic visions of young muslims on the streets of the West Bank, Beirut or Aleppo eagerly soaking up this "open letter" from a tiny group of obscure academics is laughable to anyone who has *been there* and understands the demographics and environment.

More on the history of the spectacular ineffectiveness of "open letters* :

http://www.theguardian.com/...-adolf-hitler-letter

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/090119

https://www.marxists.org/hi...nikov/ilyin/ch08.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/...ah-letter/index.html

http://go.bloomberg.com/ass...-Iranian-Leaders.pdf

http://www.lettersofnote.co...l-your-software.html


"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 03-01-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by randye:


The only thing he does NOT seem to be reaching for is an airline ticket to Syria, or *anywhere* that is majority muslim.

Pontificating from the safety and inexperience of Silicon Valley California via the internet appears to be Mr. Inselberg's forte'.

His fantasy romantic visions of young muslims on the streets of the West Bank, Beirut or Aleppo eagerly soaking up this "open letter" from a tiny group of obscure academics is laughable to anyone who has *been there* and understands the demographics and environment.

More on the history of the spectacular ineffectiveness of "open letters* :

http://www.theguardian.com/...-adolf-hitler-letter

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/090119

https://www.marxists.org/hi...nikov/ilyin/ch08.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/...ah-letter/index.html

http://go.bloomberg.com/ass...-Iranian-Leaders.pdf

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana



Randy ,You are such a hater!

He has an interest in this and it is to come to a positive end. While highly unlikely an outcome it isn't negative,harmful or violent.

You treat him like he was Neptune.

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quote
Originally posted by pokeyfiero:


Randy ,You are such a hater!



Not at all.
I am dispassionate in my analysis and comments.

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quote
Originally posted by randye:


Not at all.
I am dispassionate in my analysis and comments.


I don't think you are.
Of course that is my perspective.Your perspective has more information to work with on yourself.

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Report this Post03-01-2016 03:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


The only thing he does NOT seem to be reaching for is an airline ticket to Syria, or *anywhere* that is majority muslim.

Pontificating from the safety and inexperience of Silicon Valley California via the internet appears to be Mr. Inselberg's forte'.

His fantasy romantic visions of young muslims on the streets of the West Bank, Beirut or Aleppo eagerly soaking up this "open letter" from a tiny group of obscure academics is laughable to anyone who has *been there* and understands the demographics and environment.

More on the history of the spectacular ineffectiveness of "open letters* :

http://www.theguardian.com/...-adolf-hitler-letter

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/090119

https://www.marxists.org/hi...nikov/ilyin/ch08.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/...ah-letter/index.html

http://go.bloomberg.com/ass...-Iranian-Leaders.pdf

http://www.lettersofnote.co...l-your-software.html


"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana


So you are asserting that you are an expert because you have been there and therefore understand the demographics and environment?

Awesome, how long does one have to have been there to understand the dynamics or form an opinion exactly?

I've seen a lot of people question why none of the "good ones" stand up and criticize their fellow Muslims for the barbaric acts that some commit. This thread appears to be an example of what some were asking for. The fact that an open letter does little to effect change is besides the point, I would suggest.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-01-2016).]

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Report this Post03-01-2016 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:


I've seen a lot of people question why none of the "good ones" stand up and criticize their fellow Muslims for the barbaric acts that some commit. This thread appears to be an example of what some were asking for. The fact that an open letter does little to effect change is besides the point, I would suggest.



A few hundred signed an open letter, as said, it is a start.
Or at least symbolic of a start.
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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


A few hundred signed an open letter, as said, it is a start.
Or at least symbolic of a start.


Hopefully the start of the recognition that the more radical Islamists need to be forced to the fringes and eradicated by the true followers of Islam.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-01-2016).]

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Report this Post03-02-2016 11:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I didn’t create that long and “decorative” opening post because I was having wet dreams of the kind attributed to me by randye, in which this Open Letter to al-Baghdadi is read and taken to heart by some astonishingly large number of Muslims around the world, followed by Islamist gangs like ISIS and Boko Haram putting down their weapons and singing Kumbaya in joyful harmony with their Muslim and non-Muslim adversaries. Not at all.


First, the short of it

From the day of the 9-11 atrocities and forwards, this forum has seen thousands of posts that are connected to Islam and to Muslims. I did not join this forum until 2010, but soon after I joined, I used the Search option to look at some of the posts that were "before my time". And--needless to say--I have been part of this discussion ever since I joined. I posted about the Open Letter in the service of my opinion. What is my opinion? This is my most recent version of it, in Summary format. I use "other guys" as a short way of saying "other forum members":

 
quote
The other guys say that Muslims would have to give up their allegiance to Islam, in order for them to live peaceably in a multicultural world that accommodates any and all religions (and atheism and its variants).

I say that they merely have to perfect their practice of Islam, by using the knowledge in this Open Letter. A very tall order for “merely”, but what I recognize (and the other guys don’t) is that the barriers that Muslims would have to dismantle are only the barriers of ignorance (of their own religion) and centuries of “bad habit”. They are not barriers that are in any way part of the foundations of Islam.

This Open Letter shows how Muslims could—
in theory—complete the dismantling of these barriers to a "game changing" reformation of Islam, without dismantling Islam itself.


I said "in theory".

How provocative a statement is that?


Up for a deeper dive?

For me, this is part of a longstanding discussion on this forum about the nature of Islam. At times, this discussion has been explicit. At least as often, this discussion has been implicit: part of a subtext that can be perceived, underlying the surface or “conscious level” of many other discussion threads and posts.

I look upon the other side(s) in this discussion--the forum's "other guys"--and these are the canons—the core beliefs—that characterize their thinking:

Islam means submission to Allah, and because of what is written in the Qur’an, Muslims who do not either engage directly in militant jihadism, or who do not agree (even if only silently) with the aims of militant jihadism, are not being faithful to Islam. They are not “real” Muslims.

Islam is not just a personal religion. It’s an all-encompassing way of life that is inherently and profoundly antagonistic to the cardinal Western precepts of democracy and secular governance. For a true Muslim, “separation of mosque and state” is an oxymoron.

Any reference to a “sensible” or “respectable” Muslim is an oxymoron; to say otherwise is to undermine the cardinal Western precepts of democracy and secular governance.

A Muslim who is a citizen or permanent resident of the United States cannot fully respect the Constitution and be as loyal to the country as anyone else, without forfeiting his or her claim of living in complete submission to Allah. Saying that someone is a loyal American who is also 100 percent Muslim is—drum roll please—an oxymoron.


Does the Open Letter to al-Baghdadi contradict these much cherished and oft-repeated proclamations of the forum’s “other guys”?

I don’t think it goes the entire distance; but a long ways towards realizing that objective. When I put it alongside the Amman Message, which was published on the Internet after its last revision in 2006, I see a “family resemblance” in that both documents are very explicitly focused on how Muslims are expected to conduct themselves as denizens of Muslim-majority nations, where governance is either fully formalized as Islamic (Saudi Arabia; Iran); or watering it down--maybe by a “shot glass”--where governance is not fully Islamic, but explicitly and especially informed by and deferential to Islam (Tunisia; Egypt). These documents do not put as much emphasis on what is expected of Muslims as citizens or permanent residents of nations like the United States, which have either a constitutional or deeply-felt commitment to secular governance.

At the same time, I do not think it is rational to consign this Open Letter (or the Amman Message) immediately to the fireplace—which is what the other guys do.

Let’s take a closer look at the Open Letter, starting with how it enlarges on one of its denunciations of ISIS:
 
quote
21. Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler and not allowing people to pray.

Where the Letter enlarges on this denunciation, it includes this:
 
quote
Whoever prevents the Shari’ah (Islamic Law) from being practiced at all in a Muslim country is a disbeliever, but one who does not implement part of it or only implements its higher purposes is merely an evildoer or wicked. In some countries, the implementation of Shari’ah is restricted due to matters of sovereignty on which national security depends, and this is permissible.

Could these words from the Open Letter be read as any kind of justification for Muslim Americans to engage in armed insurrection against the government of the United States? I think that would be an entirely implausible interpretation. The U.S. is not a “Muslim country”, so however the Letter finishes out this paragraph, the U.S. has already been excluded—and doubly so, by the sentence that follows. I don’t think that even the slickest lawyer in hell could find a way to exclude the U.S. from the category of countries where “the implementation of Shari’ah [Islamic Law] is restricted due to matters of sovereignty on which national security depends”.

And…
 
quote
23. Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.

To which the Letter adds:
 
quote
Simply, patriotism and loving one’s country does not contradict Islam’s teachings, rather, loving one’s country stems from faith, being both instinctual and a Sunnah [i.e., of being informed in life by the role model of Mohammed.]

If a Muslim citizen of the United States—and this, of course, is not a hypothetical—were to advocate that the U.S. abandon its commitment to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and adopt some form of Islamic governance, how then? Could a Muslim be doing that, and at the same time, “loyal” to the United States?

I can imagine someone who is adept at splitting hairs maintaining that a Muslim could advocate for Islamic governance, and at the same time, be a loyal American, to the extent that this advocacy were always bounded by whatever is permissible within the freedom of speech clause of the First Amendment—and nothing beyond that.

As a practical matter, I would strongly prefer that Muslim Americans follow the lead of the AIFD (American Islamic Forum for Democracy) and wholeheartedly support secular governance and separation of mosque and state. I think that many Muslim Americans are already on board with this commitment, even if they are not formally members of the AIFD; or have not ever participated, even as a non-member, in any AIFD sponsored forum or event. I think there are Muslim Americans that have never heard of the AIFD and if asked about it, could only respond with either a puzzled face, or “You mean the American Institute of Floral Designers?”, and are also committed to secular governance and separation of mosque and state. I think I could—if pressed—find some of these personages among my previous forum posts.

All this is acceptable to me in a document that presumably represents a consensus among signatories from governments around the world, including governments that are not wholeheartedly democratic (Saudi Arabia; signatory #42) and ones that are not highly functional (Afghanistan; signatory #68).

From Muslim Americans--or American Muslims--I expect more, and I demand it.

The other guys say that Muslims would have to give up their allegiance to Islam, in order for them to live peaceably in a multicultural world that accommodates any and all religions (and atheism and its variants).

I say that they merely have to perfect their practice of Islam, by using the knowledge in this Open Letter. A very tall order for “merely”, but what I recognize (and the other guys don’t) is that the barriers that Muslims would have to dismantle are only the barriers of ignorance (of their own religion) and centuries of “bad habit”. They are not barriers that are in any way part of the foundations of Islam.

This Open Letter shows how Muslims could—in theory—complete the dismantling of these barriers to a "game changing" reformation of Islam, without dismantling Islam itself.

Are "you" one of this forum's "other guys"..?

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-04-2016).]

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Report this Post03-02-2016 12:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

The U.S. is not a “Muslim country”,




What constitutes one?
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Formula88
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Report this Post03-02-2016 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:
...this Open Letter to al-Baghdadi is read and taken to heart by some astonishing number of Muslims around the world...


astonishingly low.

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rinselberg
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Report this Post03-02-2016 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
wet dreams--not.
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rinselberg
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Report this Post03-04-2016 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Where are the hollow men? The stuffed men, their heads filled with straw? Are they between the idea and the reality? Between the potency and the existence? Where are the hollow men "other guys"..?

 
quote
From "our" previous episode (already posted, above)

The other guys say that Muslims would have to give up their allegiance to Islam, in order for them to live peaceably in a multicultural world that accommodates any and all religions (and atheism and its variants).

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-04-2016).]

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2.5
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Report this Post03-04-2016 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
What constitutes one?


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rinselberg
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Report this Post03-04-2016 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
re: 2.5 What constitutes a "Muslim country", as referenced in the Open Letter?

This sentence in the Open Letter has a footnote. It is from part of the Hadith. An old writing, originally in Arabic, from way back when. I don't think that I can get it online and in English.

I think it meant, during the time when it was written, any country that acknowledges a Muslim as its ruler.

A rather archaic reference, and not directly applicable to the contemporary world.

I would say that the signatories of the Open Letter are using "Muslim country" to refer to any present day nation that is under a national government that formally recognizes a national deference to Islam. In countries like Egypt and Pakistan, which have governments that are fully constitutionalized, it is written in their constitution that the national government is "informed" by Islam, or will govern in the spirit of Islam, or some wording along this line. In other nations, such as Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Republic (Iran), they are even more up front about it, and any representative of the national government will say "This nation is governed according to Islamic Law. No ifs, ands, or buts."

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-04-2016).]

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randye
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Report this Post03-04-2016 02:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

I would say that the signatories of the Open Letter are using "Muslim country" to refer to any present day nation that is under a national government that formally recognizes a national deference to Islam. In countries like Egypt and Pakistan, which have governments that are fully constitutionalized, it is written in their constitution that the national government is "informed" by Islam, or will govern in the spirit of Islam, or some wording along this line. In other nations, such as Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Republic (Iran), they are even more up front about it, and any representative of the national government will say "This nation is governed according to Islamic Law. No ifs, ands, or buts."



Once again proving the point:

If islam was ONLY a religion it probably wouldn't be a problem.....BUT IT ISN'T

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 03-04-2016).]

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