I don't think the article is too far out of alignment with known stories and history. It is just filling in the blanks of what wasn't recorded.
Yeah, the pilgrims came and tamed this great land...which was a little bit pre-tamed by the indians. The first part is still true, but you can 'remember' to add in the second part..they had help.
I'm sorry, argue a little more that its better to have slaughtered them all with your own pilgrim ancestor hands than an unavoidable plague wiping them out.
In the decades between Columbus' discovery of America and the Mayflower landing at Plymouth Rock, the most devastating plague in human history raced up the East Coast of America.
I sure would like to see a citation or two concerning this "apocalypse." I do remember that the aboriginal American Indians returned the favor by sending syphilis (and the tomato) back to Europe.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-17-2012).]
Yeah, the pilgrims came and tamed this great land...which was a little bit pre-tamed by the indians. The first part is still true, but you can 'remember' to add in the second part..they had help.
I think I learned that the Spanish, British and French colonized what is now much of the territory of the USA.
just a quick look-see. yes, i know my citations are not properly formatted. never quite got the hang of turabian. j. Lockhart, "the nauhuas after the conquest", stanford U. press, 1992, p 113 "the great epidemics of the years around 1580..." stuart schwart, ed., "victors and vanquished", yale u., 2000, p216, 34, 182, etc... iirc, Bernal diaz in his "conquest of mexico" describes the effects of smallpox on the aztecs, a major contributor to to cortez' success. i've seen quotes from the pilgrims saying they found empty villages, and similar statements from early trappers and hunters saying they'd found deserted villages with human bones scattered about. there are many, many more. smallpox was the big killer in historical times, but historians think that earlier sporadic contact started introducing european diseases about 1200, coincident with the collapse of missisippian cultures. i don't think it would take long to hunt up sources. the indians appear to have been recovering from massive epidemics when the colonizers arrived.
i don't think it would take long to hunt up sources. the indians appear to have been recovering from massive epidemics when the colonizers arrived.
Thanks for the references. Maybe it's time for me to reread Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel.
I have no doubt that the American Indians were probably fatally susceptible to many common European diseases. I imagine that even common influenza would have decimated their populations in short order, but it's still hard to imagine 95% mortality throughout the entire eastern range of North America. I would expect the oral traditions of many American Indian peoples to memorialize such an epidemic, but I'm not aware of even one such story. Then again, the oral history of most American Indian tribes does not include any details of a time before there were horses, either, just vague references to a time "before the horses came."
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-17-2012).]
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: I would expect the oral traditions of many American Indian peoples to memorialize such an epidemic, but I'm not aware of even one such story.
i've always found indian traditions remarkably vague about time. i think they just understand it differently, as if it doesn't really matter. seasons matter, but the passage of the years?
if 90% of us died and we left no written records, i think we'd be a little vague about what happened, when it happened, and what came before. we'd make up some pretty fantastic tales to explain the wreckage.
[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 05-17-2012).]
i've always found indian traditions remarkably vague about time. i think they just understand it differently, as if it doesn't really matter ...
The traditional Navajo language even lacks any words for time. (There are probably other Indian languages that share the same characteristic, but I'm not as familiar with them as with Navajo.) No words => lack of corresponding concepts.
Our Western (i.e. European) concept of time is linear. To broadly generalize, the American Indian concept of time is circular, or cyclical. If fact, the Hopi assert that the purpose of much of their elaborate ceremonial cycle is "to keep the Earth turning properly on its axis" ... which is to say, to ensure that the repeating cycles of time continue.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-18-2012).]
The traditional Navajo language even lacks any words for time. (There are probably other Indian languages that share the same characteristic, but I'm not as familiar with them as with Navajo.) No words => lack of corresponding concepts.
Our Western (i.e. European) concept of time is linear. To broadly generalize, the American Indian concept of time is circular, or cyclical. If fact, the Hopi assert that the purpose of much of their elaborate ceremonial cycle is "to keep the Earth turning properly on its axis" ... which is to say, to ensure that the repeating cycles of time continue.
Well, doesn't that make sense for a largely agrarian society?
Their concept of time, as needed is the seasons and what must I be doing to prepare for what is coming.
All I really need to know is...I'm not old enough to be an elder, not young enough to be a child, spring is coming soon, followed by summer.
Does it really matter I'm 33 years old, and I've done this 'spring' thing 32 times already?
Well, doesn't that make sense for a largely agrarian society?
Their concept of time, as needed is the seasons and what must I be doing to prepare for what is coming.
I agree. I'm not suggesting that either concept of time (linear vs. circular) is superior to the other, although either may be better suited to different situations ... kinda' like working in Euclidian (rectangular) coordinates vs. polar coordinates in geometry. A circular concept of time is certainly well suited to seasonal activities. Consider also that if a circle is big enough a short segment of circular arc is virtually indistinguishable from a straight line. Indeed, a straight line in two dimensions actually becomes a circular arc when mapped onto a sphere.
When in "Indian country," both Indians and non-Indians alike jokingly refer to "Indian Time" (or, more formally, "Indian Standard Time") ... meaning that nothing ever happens on a predictable schedule.
quote
All I really need to know is...I'm not old enough to be an elder, not young enough to be a child, spring is coming soon, followed by summer.
In my naive understanding, the closest the Navajo language comes to addressing time is when referring broadly to the past ("things that have happened"), the present ("now"), and the future ("things that haven't yet happened.").
To digress, I find it equally interesting, and even more baffling, that the Hopi language (totally unrelated to Navajo, despite the two peoples living in close proximity) doesn't have any nouns. They speak not of objects, but of manifestations. My inadequate attempt at an example: The Hopi don't speak of a "rock," but rather of something "being a rock."
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-18-2012).]
never quite got the hang of turabian.
