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Author
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Topic: I wonder if we will ever know the truth.
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84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Oi, where to start this morning? You know those 2010 Prius brake problems? Toyota learned its lesson and is willing to cop to a design problem. Will there be a recall? Did Woz doom or save Toyota? UPDATE!
As you'll remember, Steve Wozniak's Prius has been in the spotlight since he complained about cruise control. The issue with the brakes came from the Japanese, though there was a similar issue on this side of the Pacific.
Toyota admits there's a problem and, oh Lord, it's a software issue. There's a "disconnect" in the ABS and it'll lag one second before it starts braking. Fortunately, Toyota changed the software in January so new Prius hybrids don't have the problem. But what about the old ones? Normally, the software update would probably be made at the dealer when the car comes in for routine service without a recall. This time? It's possible they may have to recall the cars.
And Woz? We've been on top of this story all week and, while Wozniak has a cruise control issue (and it may just be his misunderstanding of how it works, we don't know), he keeps popping up in stories this morning about the Prius blaming the "software" on the other issue as an expert on car software. He is not.
The guy is unfortunately charismatic so expect to see more stories with him talking about software. We're so glad Steve Jobs drives a Mercedes.
UPDATE: Yep, the Department of Transportation is opening up a new investigation into Prius brake problems. Ugh...
http://jalopnik.com/5464094...t-because-of-the-woz
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by dsnover:
I agree that I prefer to have control over the throttle via a mechanical cable. But, I have to disagree about the primary reason for DBW (or perhaps more appropriately, (E)lectronic (T)hrottle (C)ontrol). The cruise control and traction control are certainly made simpler by virtue of electronic throttle control, but both were available long before ETC, in the form of dropping ignition pulses, retarding timing, applying the brakes, etc. I believe an honest evaluation shows that this has more to do with increasingly tight emissions and fuel economy standards, and the side effect is easier implementation of cruise and traction controls. The public demands higher performance and comfort, and the government demands better fuel economy and emissions. Tighter control over the fuel and air mixture allows both. As Big Brother demands even more, expect electronic controls to get much more invasive, and at some point, cars to get less powerful, smaller, or both. |
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I disagree. The cost savings by going to DBW COMPLETELY eliminates at minimum $600 dollars worth of hardware that a comperably equipped vehicle without DBW would have. In addition to that, there is far less reliability issues because there no longer exists any of that mechanical or vacuum related stuff that had to do with traction control or cruise control. It's a total win/win. Emissions really has very little to do with it becasue the majority of emissions in modern cars is caused at startup. Under a normally operating vehicle... as soon as it warms up, the amount of emissions are almost negligeble with modern OBD-2.5 programming.
This is as I understood it from my wife's friend who used to be an Electrical Engineer for Cadillac up until 2 years ago. (now he works for Thomas Bus company). What you're saying becomes a benefit would be the elimination of the delay from the moment the TPS receives the data, to the time it affects the modulation of the fuel injectors and ignition timing. The delay is measured in milliseconds and nanoseconds which makes an almost unnoticeable difference in emissions.
EDIT: Just as an FYI, if you see an "ETC" badge on the back of a car (like a Cadillac) it stands for Electronic Traction Control.
| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Hmm, only 19 deaths have been suggested to be related to the Toyota defect. Firestone tires killed way more many than that. How many were killed by Crown Vics catching on fire ? Let me rephrase that. How many police officers were killed by Crown Vics catching on fire ? More than 30. The 05 to 07 Corvettes killed 19 people.
I don't remember you bastardizing GN when they refused the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's request to voluntarily recall 4.7 million Pick Up trucks.
What gives Steve ?
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Hold on now, the thing with the Crown Victoria is MUCH MUCH different. You're comparing the number of deaths in a Crown Victoria which includes over 18 years of production on the EXACT same platform. To be honest, the frame has remained UNCHANGED since 1979 until slight suspension revisions in 2003. The body shell design has been identical since 1992, and the current aesthetic changes (different fenders and pillars) have been the same since 1998. Your argument is ridiculous. Not only that, all of the fires had been caused in accidents over 50 miles an hour where the impact occured in the rear end of the vehicle. The gas tank is located above the differential, behind the rear seats and in front of the trunk. In every case, the car was severly compromised because of the massive accident. There have been no examples of this in civilian use, and all P71s now come with additional firewall protection that encapsulates the fuel tank.
The huge difference here is that Toyota has been denying unreliability for many many years. This is a flaw in a design that has occured only in the past 3-4 years. HUGE difference than a chassis that's been unchanged for 18 years.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
(quoted to Steve)
Steve, I mentioned your Chrysler tranny issue on the first page of this post to remind you - I can guarantee you Chrysler didn't come out with any sort of recall on your tranny problem. They just grenade and YOU pay if it is out of warranty.
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Not that this changes the argument, but those transmissions you're talking about were Mitsubishi transmissions, weren't they? They were attached to the 3 liter V6 in the Caravans, etc. Mitsubishi had a huge problem with those transmissions. They would grenade around 30k miles. This affected the 2nd gen Eclipse / Talon... as well as anything that Chrysler made which used that engine / transmission combo.
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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 02-04-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by FrugalFiero:
As I said I have my doubts. I think it is computer (code) related too.
Toyota is doing the EXACT SAME thing any other auto company would do - downplay the issue. American auto companies have done this SOOOOO many times it is normal operating procedure.
Steve, I mentioned your Chrysler tranny issue on the first page of this post to remind you - I can guarantee you Chrysler didn't come out with any sort of recall on your tranny problem. They just grenade and YOU pay if it is out of warranty.
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But you don’t get killed or in a severe accident.
That is not the same. It should have been recalled yes, but as far as I have found no one got killed because of it.
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I trust a cable more than a computer.
What one do you trust more Don? |
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I asked what they used for a redundant circuit, not which one you trusted more.
IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17252
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Hold on now, the thing with the Crown Victoria is MUCH MUCH different. You're comparing the number of deaths in a Crown Victoria which includes over 18 years of production on the EXACT same platform.
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Whatever.
| | | quote | linky
Ford allegedly was aware of this design flaw but refused to pay for a redesign. Instead, it was argued, Ford decided it would be cheaper to pay off possible lawsuits for resulting deaths. Mother Jones magazine obtained the cost-benefit analysis that it said Ford had used to compare the cost of an $11 repair against the monetary value of a human life, in what became known as the Ford Pinto memo.[8][9][10] The characterization of Ford's design decision as gross disregard for human lives in favor of profits led to significant lawsuits. While Ford was acquitted of criminal charges, it lost several million dollars and gained a reputation for manufacturing "the barbecue that seats four."[11]
The NHTSA put pressure on Ford to recall the Pinto, motivated by public outcry and pressure from groups such as Ralph Nader's Center for Auto Safety. Initially the NHTSA did not feel there was sufficient evidence to demand a recall due to incidents of fire. The 27 deaths attributed to Pinto fires is the same number of deaths attributed to a transmission problem in the Pinto, which resulted in 180 total deaths in all Ford vehicles, and in 1974 the NHTSA ruled that the Pinto had no "recallable" problem.[12]
Nevertheless, in 1978 Ford initiated a recall providing a dealer installable "safety kit" that installed plastic protective material over the offending sharp objects, negating the risk of tank puncture.[13]
In 1981, an automobile accident that killed Lilly Gray and badly burned 13-year old Richard Grimshaw resulted in the court case Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co.,[14] in which the California Court of Appeal for the Fourth Appellate District upheld compensatory damages of $2.5 million and punitive damages of $3.5 million against Ford, partially because Ford had been aware of the design defects before production but had decided against changing the design. |
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My point still stands.IP: Logged |
FrugalFiero
Member Posts: 2393
From: Where cars n trucks used to be made in Michigan
Registered: Nov 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
But you don’t get killed or in a severe accident.
That is not the same. It should have been recalled yes, but as far as I have found no one got killed because of it.
Steve
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When a differential grenades alot of crazy things can happen, which I'll bet include accidents.
IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
I asked what they used for a redundant circuit, not which one you trusted more.
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Well seeing the throttle is not controlled the same way as these are why would a redundant failsafe be needed?
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
My point still stands. |
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I'm confused and dumbfounded as to how you can defend the actions of Toyota by comparing the actions of Ford back in the 1970s? That was 30 years ago???
When the Titanic sank, everyone else learned the lesson and all ships came with safety boats necessary to rescue everyone. Why should Toyota get a free pass?
| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Well seeing the throttle is not controlled the same way as these are why would a redundant failsafe be needed?
Steve
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In the case of a breaking throttle cable, the throttle body would automatically immediately flip back to the closed position... So that is sort of a redundancy in a way.
------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 02-04-2010).] IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17252
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I'm confused and dumbfounded as to how you can defend the actions of Toyota by comparing the actions of Ford back in the 1970s? Why should Toyota get a free pass?
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You have not seen me defend the actions of Toyota. Toyota should not get a free pass. What you have seen me do is to correct the bastardizing of one company while ignoring others who have done the same thing. Odd that so many non Toyota owners are so interested in this thread.
IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by FrugalFiero:
When a differential grenades alot of crazy things can happen, which I'll bet include accidents.
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I just scrolled through a crap load of complaints about 450 here and did not find any deaths related to the dodge trany. I did see one injury.
Now I may have missed something, please feel free to check.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.go...mplaints/results.cfm
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Well seeing the throttle is not controlled the same way as these are why would a redundant failsafe be needed?
Steve
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Are you saying there was none?
IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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As noted by 82-T/A [At Work]
There is In the case of a breaking throttle cable, the throttle body would automatically immediately flip back to the closed position... So that is sort of a redundancy in a way.
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17252
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I just scrolled through a crap load of complaints about 450 here and did not find any deaths related to the dodge trany. I did see one injury.
Now I may have missed something ....
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Perhaps you did not look here.
IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17252
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
In the case of a breaking throttle cable, the throttle body would automatically immediately flip back to the closed position... So that is sort of a redundancy in a way.
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Well, they did use two springs, one inside the other, in case one failed.[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 02-04-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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I only looked at the caravan complaints on the ODI web site. Not every dodge manufactured.
And that is a different problem so it might not have showed up in my search.
Does that make what dodge did right?
No
But one life lost over a at least 10 year run compared to Toyotas is not quite the same.
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
You have not seen me defend the actions of Toyota. Toyota should not get a free pass. What you have seen me do is to correct the bastardizing of one company while ignoring others who have done the same thing. Odd that so many non Toyota owners are so interested in this thread. |
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I'd be lying if I didn't say that I was happy at the prospect of the American companies being able to do well. The thing is, the media always goes for number 1. When that was General Motors... well... you saw how that worked. They'll always go for sensationalism.
I've owned a Toyota myself, although to be fair, it was an old Toyota.
But... what I get out of this personally is a facad that was created by the brand through excellent marketing. Essentially what happened was that Toyota created a sense of infalability with their products. The thing is, it's simply just not true. Through excellent marketing and constant public conditioning, they created an ambiance of their brand that made people beleive their vehicles were FAIL-PROOF.
For many, MANY years... a large portion of our society had this ridiculous idea that if you drive a Toyota and it broke down or had an issue... it was simply a "factory fluke". But... if you drove an American car and it broke down or had an issue... it was "expected" because the car was American and "your friends warned you about buying American". It quickly became popular for middle aged women to buy Solaras and Camrys because that's what their friends drove. And... these women drove these cars because they were also under the impression that the vehicles were extremely reliable.
It became almost gospel to some people... to the point that I know of several people who would literally shell out $3,000 bucks for a 15 year old Toyota w/ 200,000 miles JUST because it was a Toyota and they were CONFIDENT it would be more reliable than a 5 year newer American car with 150k less miles on it. They were always proven wrong, but they convinced themselves that it was just because the car must have been abused prior to getting it.
There is NOTHING magical about Toyotas that makes them superior to American vehicles.
Toyota did produce quality vehicles during a time when American manufacturers were suffering and cutting corners. Unfortunately, this is what began this omniopotent facad that is Toyota.
In the past 4-5 years though, people have slowly begun to get wise and the Toyotas have begun to drop in reliability. This is proven by the results of the JD Power & Associates and Consumer Reports ratings from the past several years. Consumer Reports now lists Toyota as being below average in almost every category. This has been going on now for 2 years... but people who still believed in this stigma of Toyotas being infallable still didn't believe it.
Unfortunately, because Toyota didn't learn from the lessons of the industry past... they are repeating the mistakes... and are suffering the same result.
| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Well, they did use two springs, one inside the other, in case one failed.
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Believe it or not, the vast majority of cars that I've worked on actually do NOT have a second spring on the gas pedal. All of the older cars that I've owned like my Porsche 944, or my Oldsmobile Cutlass, or my VW Bus... I think even my Fiero... they don't have a spring on the gas pedal. They just work off the tension on the throttle body.
I don't know if this is the same on modern vehicles... but I haven't needed to work on the accelerator pedal of anything made within the past 10 years.
Although, I WAS helping a friend fix the accelerator pedal (which fell off) on a 1995 Ford Explorer that had like over 200 thousand miles, and I think it DID have a spring on the throttle pedal.
EDIT: I just re-read what you said.. you're saying a spring WITHIN a spring in case one of them failed... gotcha...
------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 02-04-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Since the issue of Steve Wozniak's Prius arose yesterday, Toyota has been anxious to get in touch with the Apple co-founder to diagnose the problem and, according to his assistant, will take the car for testing.
At a speech on Monday Wozniak claimed his new 2010 Toyota Prius, which isn't under the current Toyota recall, randomly accelerated while in cruise control mode and that he could duplicate the event. After reading a similar story on Gizmodo Wozniak commented that he was having difficulty reaching the manufacturer to tackle his issue.
We called Toyota and they were clearly anxious to speak with Wozniak and so was he according to his assistant. "That's exactly what we were hoping would happen," she told Jalopnik. After passing on the contact info for a Toyota technical expert the company called us and asked us if we could actually send him Toyota U.S. President Jim Lentz's personal number.
Wozniak is on the road and, as of this evening, hasn't spoken directly with Toyota, but his dealer is going to take the car for a week to test it and will give him a loaner in the meantime. We're anxious to hear how it turns out.
Send an email to Matt Hardigree, the author of this post, at matt@jalopnik.com.
http://jalopnik.com/5462834...aks-prius-for-a-week------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Since the issue of Steve Wozniak's Prius arose yesterday, Toyota has been anxious to get in touch with the Apple co-founder to diagnose the problem and, according to his assistant, will take the car for testing.
At a speech on Monday Wozniak claimed his new 2010 Toyota Prius, which isn't under the current Toyota recall, randomly accelerated while in cruise control mode and that he could duplicate the event. After reading a similar story on Gizmodo Wozniak commented that he was having difficulty reaching the manufacturer to tackle his issue.
We called Toyota and they were clearly anxious to speak with Wozniak and so was he according to his assistant. "That's exactly what we were hoping would happen," she told Jalopnik. After passing on the contact info for a Toyota technical expert the company called us and asked us if we could actually send him Toyota U.S. President Jim Lentz's personal number.
Wozniak is on the road and, as of this evening, hasn't spoken directly with Toyota, but his dealer is going to take the car for a week to test it and will give him a loaner in the meantime. We're anxious to hear how it turns out.
Send an email to Matt Hardigree, the author of this post, at matt@jalopnik.com.
http://jalopnik.com/5462834...aks-prius-for-a-week
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Wozniak is kind of a bad-ass... he's one of my NERD heros...
IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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For those with high speed connections try looking at these.
http://jalopnik.com/tag/toyota/------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
dsnover
Member Posts: 684
From: Cherryville, PA USA
Registered: Apr 2006
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Wozniak is kind of a bad-ass... he's one of my NERD heros... |
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Agree!  (Even if our opinion differs on the reasons driving the push to electronic throttles, although I don't for one second debate that it results in simplification of systems)IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17252
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I'd be lying if I didn't say that I was happy at the prospect of the American companies being able to do well. The thing is, the media always goes for number 1. When that was General Motors... well... you saw how that worked. They'll always go for sensationalism.
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I'd be lying if I didn't say that I would be happy at the prospect of the American companies being able to do well also. I would also be happy for any person to do well. I would not gain satisfaction at it being at the expense of some one else's misfortune though. I would also not buy crap from someone who only cared about their wallet so that they could be #1. Just because they were American.
Yeah, the media,  ....
| | | quote | I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something, something I can use
People love it when you lose, they love dirty laundry
Well, I could've been an actor, but I wound up here
I just have to look good, I don't have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear, give us dirty laundry
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em all around
We got the bubbleheaded bleach-blonde, comes on at 5
She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye
It's interesting when people die, give us dirty laundry
Can we film the operation? Is the head dead yet?
You know the boys in the newsroom got a running bet
Get the widow on the set, we need dirty laundry
You don't really need to find out what's going on
You don't really want to know just how far it's gone
Just leave well enough alone, keep your dirty laundry
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're stiff, kick 'em all around
Dirty little secrets, dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers in everybody's pie
Love to cut you down to size, we love dirty laundry
We can do the innuendo, we can dance and sing
When it's said and done, we haven't told you a thing
We all know that crap is king, give us dirty laundry |
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Would an American company being #1 be worth supporting union thuggery and corporate greed ? Supporting an inferior product ? Lets face it. American Big Auto put out crap for many a year, and, did the bean counting thing on customer safety.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
But... what I get out of this personally is a facad that was created by the brand through excellent marketing. Essentially what happened was that Toyota created a sense of infalability with their products. The thing is, it's simply just not true. Through excellent marketing and constant public conditioning, they created an ambiance of their brand that made people beleived their vehicles were FAIL-PROOF.
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So, you are trying to say that American big auto built better cars but that the cars could not sell themselves ? The fact is, in automotive history, that American big auto abandoned service in favor of selling. Selling selling selling. Throw away cars. Toyota was the one which had the ad campaign "Where were you when your Toyota hit 300,000 miles". At the time, American with 150,000 miles was remarkable.
Myself, I am a brand loyal kinda guy. From my jeans, to my tools, to my bank, to anything which consistently gives me satisfaction and confidence. Toyota earned my business. Marketing had nothing to do with it. Just as a political ad does not sway me.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
For many, MANY years... a large portion of our society had this ridiculous idea that if you drive a Toyota and it broke down or had an issue... it was simply a "factory fluke". But... if you drove an American car and it broke down or had an issue... it was "expected" because the car was American and "your friends warned you about buying American".
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What gave birth to that ridiculous idea ? American crap. That was not a Toyota marketing campaign. Foreign cars had better gas mileage when it counted most. American auto has always been playing catch up.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
It became almost gospel to some people... to the point that I know of several people who would literally shell out $3,000 bucks for a 15 year old Toyota w/ 200,000 miles JUST because it was a Toyota and they were CONFIDENT it would be more reliable than a 5 year newer American car with 150k less miles on it. They were always proven wrong, but they convinced themselves that it was just because the car must have been abused prior to getting it.
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'Ya know, there is a reason that Toyota has a high resale value (which by the way is part of the automobile investment game). The wife and I, on my advice, bought her a 1990 Toyota Celica that had 212,000 miles on it. We bought it in '01 for $1800.00 and sold it in '09 for $1,200.00 with 280,000 miles on it. It Kelly Blue Books today for $1,815.00. Why would they sell used with that many miles on them for that much if they were crap ? I bought that car for her because of confidence through experience.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
In the past 4-5 years though, people have slowly begun to get wise and the Toyotas have begun to drop in reliability. This is proven by the results of the JD Power & Associates and Consumer Reports ratings from the past several years. Consumer Reports now lists Toyota as being below average in almost every category. This has been going on now for 2 years... but people who still believed in this stigma of Toyotas being infallable still didn't believe it.
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Oh well,  . No one is king of the hill forever. So what, if it is true ? Can Government Motors step up ? I have never turned a wrench on any Toyota I have had other than consumable items (brakes, battery, wiper blades, ... ? Never done a starter or an alternator. No timing belts, no water pumps.). I am really not swayed by such biased rags such as Consumer Reports and JD Powers.
What really gets me, , is that we proclaim American is better. We send soldiers around the globe encouraging the American way. Yet we can not stand competition. Which is what made America great. If it were not for competition, do you think that your American car would be as good as it is ?IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Oh well, . No one is king of the hill forever. So what, if it is true ? Can Government Motors step up ? I have never turned a wrench on any Toyota I have had other than consumable items (brakes, battery, wiper blades, ... ? Never done a starter or an alternator. No timing belts, no water pumps.). I am really not swayed by such biased rags such as Consumer Reports and JD Powers.
What really gets me, , is that we proclaim American is better. We send soldiers around the globe encouraging the American way. Yet we can not stand competition. Which is what made America great. If it were not for competition, do you think that your American car would be as good as it is ? |
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You know VERY well what I mean. You should be VERY aware of the fact that there are two biases here.
YOURS, and MINE. Your bias is that you feel Toyota makes a superior product, and you experience a lot of the symptoms that I described of the typical loyal Toyota customer. The inability to accept problems for what they are and seek an alternate solution: IE: this was really American workers fault cause the pedal wasn't made in Japan. The entire bias is a little ridiculous.
Toyota made great cars during a time when American companies put out cars that were inferior. I've said this below... though it's not to the extent you believe it to be. What caused you to BUY your first Toyota? Was it advertisement / public perception?
These very same "rags" that you're bashing now, are the very same rags that people like you used to quote when they were in your favor. Why has your opinion of them suddenly changed?
Personally, General Motors has totally lost my respect. I can't even look at a GM vehicle anymore with out feeling disgusted. I like Ford vehicles.
Every company went through bad times and did what they've done... whether good or bad.
The difference is that Toyota's reliability and quality has been going down for YEARS now... not months, YEARS. The reliability of Toyota vehicles have been on the significant decline now for over 5 years. During that same time, the reliability of American vehicles have continued to improve (even Government Motors).
I recognize and make full accountability of my biases... you haven't been able to come to terms with yours yet. I guess the difference is that for the majority of the population... this Toyota news is sudden and startling. You haven't had time to let it soak in... so you're in the angry / defensive stage. I'm not trying to be condescending... haha... I'm just stating that I recognize your bias and your inability to recognize it.
The way I see it... cars during the 80s were pretty bad coming from the big three. During that time Toyota and Honda in particular made an excellent product. The American companies started to catch up in the 90s, but Toyota and Honda made their BEST products through the early to mid 90s. The decline for Toyota started around 2000 really. For whatever reason, I don't know... but that's when most of the recalls started. GM and Ford started to improve considerably in the 00s, and they are not ranked at the top. Recognize that Ford HAS by all measurements, surpassed Toyota, handidly... so has newer General Motors products for that matter.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept though... Toyota reliability and quality has dropped CONSIDERABLY over the past 5-10 years... that's just fact. It's kind of come to a head now that they're on top and they've been forced into these recalls.
Will they ever get back to where they were? Who knows... but I'm happy that this only makes it easier for Ford to succeed.
Do I want people in Japan to lose jobs? No... but I AM totally ok with people gaining jobs here in America at the expense of jobs lost in Japan.------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
Mickey_Moose
Member Posts: 4004
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: May 2001
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
I have never turned a wrench on any Toyota I have had other than consumable items (brakes, battery, wiper blades, ... ? Never done a starter or an alternator. No timing belts, no water pumps.). |
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...speaking of that, I had a 1980 Firebird Esprit, 305 that had just over 530,000 miles on it when I sold it. All that was done to it was basic maintenance done as well, plus add in a carb rebuild about the 400,000 mark and a couple sets of exhaust systems and shocks over the years - so GM can make a good car (although the body was fairly rusty when it got rid of it)...BTW, my dad bougth the car when it had approx 30,000 on it, so we had most the history for the car (also of note, about 90% of the milage was highway if you are counting).
I am not saying Toyota makes a bad car, but I am not impressed with their attitude about not telling people when there is an issue with their cars - look at this brake kerfuffle, they knew about the problem and fixed it on the newer ones, but did not inform owners of the problem with their cars that that this issue and would have likely kept it quiet, it's only because of the gas pedal issue that this came into the light. In fact, as of right now they have no idea on what they are going to do about the faulty brake issue even though there is a fix as they had no plans on issuing a recall - that is the main reason I will never buy a Toyota (actually pretty much made up my mind when I was on that training course - see my eariler post on how they like to hide issues in order to perserve a certain image). Plus, IMHO they are not really any better than a NA car and NOT worth the added cost just because of the badge that is on the front.
just my 0.02 cents.  [This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 02-04-2010).] IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17252
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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Bias. Interesting word. One which denotes prejudice. Which couldn't be further from the truth.
Symptoms which afflict the loyal Toyota customer. Another interesting phrase. One which denotes steadfast ignorance to the crap they buy ?
The inability to accept problems for what they are and seek an alternate solution. Another interesting judgment by you. I did not seek an alternate solution, I stated a fact. With me, the buck still stops with Toyota. We do not know of a possible fault with the American pedal manufacturer. We also do not know if they did like the Chinese do, making it on the cheap ? Perhaps that is what we should be discussing. I don't remember pedals manufactured outside of America having this problem.
What caused me to buy my first Toyota, was the body style of the 77 Celica hatchback. Which looked a lot like the 69/70 Mustang fastback. Of which I had owned both year models. I was also poor. A new wife and newborn kids (a year to two or more old). I got a deal on it. It was a good car which gave me much pleasure and trouble free service. The hatchback, the whole car really, also reminded me of my hatchback Vegas of which I had many.
I have never gave a crap about public perception. Hence my posting in this thread. Give me my dues. I am not some panty waist liberal who will not defend his beliefs. I ain't scared that I am out numbered. You also assume that I love Consumer Reports and JD Powers when they fit my agenda ? Yep. That would be a prejudiced assumption, . People like me ? Another prejudiced opinion. My opinion of them suddenly changed ? When was that ?
I would not know that Toyota's reliability has been going down for years. With firsthand experience. Yet you know better how ? The reliability of American autos ? Could it get any worse ? There is a reason they needed a bail out.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I recognize and make full accountability of my biases... you haven't been able to come to terms with yours yet. I guess the difference is that for the majority of the population... this Toyota news is sudden and startling. You haven't had time to let it soak in... so you're in the angry / defensive stage. I'm not trying to be condescending... haha... I'm just stating that I recognize your bias and your inability to recognize it.
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You recognize and make full accountability of your biases ? You shouldn't have them. I have no terms to come to. I couldn't give a flip about Toyota's problems. They are not sudden, they are just news, as all news is sudden. Startling ? Yeah right, . Just as startling as the law of averages. Angry defensive stage. Again, an assumption. Would defensive be the same as rationalizing ? I don't need to defend my opinion. Only to myself. I have to live with it. You act as though my defense of my beliefs are somehow inherent to a flawed belief.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
... haha... I'm just stating that I recognize your bias and your inability to recognize it.
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Really, ?
| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept though... Toyota reliability and quality has dropped CONSIDERABLY over the past 5-10 years... that's just fact. It's kind of come to a head now that they're on top and they've been forced into these recalls.
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Really, ? Well, Big Auto had decades to turn their image around. The bad taste that they left in customer's mouths followed them. Good luck Toyota, .[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 02-04-2010).] IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17252
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:
just my 0.02 cents.
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Your two cents are worth the same as my two cents. Valuable. I have had many a good Chevy and Ford. Still love them. Have a '70 Chevy SWB fleetside P/U now.
To me, it's about the mfg catering to the customer. BIG AUTO lost the market share by catering to it's wallet. BIG UNION helped.
IP: Logged |
FrugalFiero
Member Posts: 2393
From: Where cars n trucks used to be made in Michigan
Registered: Nov 2003
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 IP: Logged |
Mickey_Moose
Member Posts: 4004
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: May 2001
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Your two cents are worth the same as my two cents. |
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...well not really as mine are based on the Canadian dollar (which at last look was worth less than the greenback). IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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just saw this
Toyota chief to speak on quality woes
Email this Story
Feb 5, 6:33 AM (ET)
By YURI KAGEYAMA
(AP) Graphic shows yearly sales figures of eight recalled Toyota vehicle models
Full Image
TOKYO (AP) - Toyota President Akio Toyoda will publicly confront the automaker's safety problems for the first time Friday as it considers adding the Prius hybrid to the 4.5 million vehicles already being recalled.
Criticism has been growing that Toyoda, grandson of the company's founder, has largely been invisible amid the automaker's worst crisis since it was founded.
Toyota Motor Corp. said Toyoda and Shinichi Sasaki, the executive overseeing quality, will speak to reporters at the automaker's Nagoya office Friday evening. Toyoda will speak about quality control, it said. Other details were not immediately available.
The only media comment so far from Toyoda was a brief, impromptu interview last week with Japanese broadcaster NHK on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Toyoda, 53, said he was sorry for the worries he had caused customers and insisted that Toyota cars were safe.
Toyota said this week it is considering a recall in the U.S. and Japan for its Prius gas-electric hybrid, which has been plagued with braking problems.
Nearly 200 complaints have been reported in the U.S. and Japan over such problems. Toyota said on Thursday it was a flaw in the computerized antilock brake system.
The problems with the Prius, Toyota's flagship model and symbol of its technological prowess and green car ambitions, follow a global recall announced Jan. 21 for 4.5 million vehicles with gas pedals that stick and can cause sudden acceleration.
A less-than-perfect Prius, the vehicle of choice for Hollywood movie stars like Leonardo Dicaprio, threatens to be an even more serious blow for Toyota's image than the gas pedal recall.
The brake problem has been fixed with a software programming change for Prius vehicles sold in Japan and overseas since late January but not for vehicles sold before then, according to Toyota.
The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it would assess the scope of the problem in the Prius and the safety risk to about 37,000 cars that could be affected. Toyota, however, has said it sold 103,000 of the new Prius in the U.S. since May last year.
The quality failures are drawing intense media scrutiny in the U.S. where Toyota is more used to winning plaudits for consumer satisfaction. But the coverage in Japan has been calmer.
The biggest story splashed across front pages of major dailies and on TV news Friday was the retirement of a well-known sumo wrestler, forced to step down for drunken behavior. Toyota news was relegated far below that.
U.S. officials have blessed Toyota's solution to the gas pedal problem, a small piece of steel designed to eliminate excess friction in the pedal mechanism, but have criticized Toyota for being too slow in responding to customer complaints.
Still, concern is bubbling among the Japanese who take pride in Toyota as an icon of the country's advanced manufacturing and see the fuel-efficient Prius as a symbol of the company's commitment to green, low-pollution vehicles.
"Trouble with the Prius means real trouble for the Toyota brand," said Ryoichi Shinozaki, a crisis management expert at Kyodo Public Relations Co.
"It is a symbol of its commitment to ecology. It lies at the heart of Toyota's new successful business that was defined differently from its past success," he said.
Shinozaki believes Toyota has yet to fully recognize the magnitude of the crisis that has hit.
In Japan, protocol requires an executive to bow deeply and hold that position for at least five seconds to apologize for causing a ruckus, even if a company has done nothing wrong, he said. Toyota executives who explained the quality problems this week in Japan held their heads up high.
Toyota then played down the fix on Prius cars carried out since last month as merely part of a routine improvement program, raising questions about its commitment to the company motto of putting customers first.
Toyota is also investigating possible brake problems with its luxury Lexus hybrid and the Sai compact sedan, both of which use the same brake system as the Prius. Toyota has not received any complaints about the Lexus HS250h and the probe is to ensure safety, she said. The Sai is not sold outside Japan.
Koji Endo, managing director of equity research firm Advanced Research Japan Co. in Tokyo, said Prius is so integral to Toyota's identity that even if financial damage from the latest woes turns out to be small, brand damage would be devastating.
"For Toyota's long-term strategy in the green car field, this is a symbol," said Endo. "This symbol car, one of its best selling models, is defective. That's obviously going to raise big questions among the public."
Congressional investigators expanded their review of Toyota to include the Prius as California Rep. Darrell Issa, the ranking Republican on the House Oversight Committee, asked Toyota for records on its Prius brakes.
The committee plans a hearing next week on Toyota's recalls, the first of two in Congress this month. Issa said he would focus on whether Toyota or NHTSA failed to properly deal with safety complaints or address them quickly enough.
"We think they should have acted more aggressively or quickly," said Issa, who owns four Priuses, none of which fall under the investigation.
Some drivers remained loyal.
Toshimitsu Tanimura, a cab driver whose company's fleet includes 94 Priuses, vows by the hybrid and has never heard of the brakes failing.
"The engine is so quiet without any strange shaking," he said.
Toyota said some Prius drivers have complained of an inconsistent feel during slow and steady application of brakes on rough or slick roads when the antilock brakes engage. Normally, the brakes grab and release rapidly in reaction to slipping tires.
Paul Nolasco, a Toyota spokesman in Japan, said the time lag drivers feel before brakes kick in stems from the two systems in a gas-electric hybrid - the gas-engine and the electric motor. The brakes work if the driver keeps pushing the pedal, he said.
NHTSA said some Prius owners reported a "brief lag" or "brief surge" when they used the brakes. The agency did not specify how long those lags were. At highway speeds, a car can travel nearly 100 feet (30 meters) in just one second. The problem is suspected in four crashes resulting in two minor injuries, according to a preliminary NHTSA safety report.
Prius is not Toyota's biggest seller - the company sold 140,000 in the U.S. last year, far less than the 357,000 Camrys - but holds a cherished spot in its lineup.
The complexity of the Prius, a highly computerized car, has led to problems in the past. In 2005, the company repaired 75,000 of them to fix software glitches that caused the engine to stall. It has also had trouble with headlights going out.
Glitches ordinarily don't prove to be public relations disasters for Toyota. But analysts said Toyota may be forced to take decisive action like issuing a recall because of the intense scrutiny it now faces from regulators and customers.
"People are hypersensitive right now," said Erich Merkle, president of U.S. consulting company Autoconomy.com. "I don't know how they will be able to work around this without doing a recall."
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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A little more on this
Prius problems put spotlight on car electronics
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Feb 4, 7:45 PM (ET)
By PETER SVENSSON
NEW YORK (AP) - Your most expensive piece of electronics probably is not your flat panel TV or your computer. More likely, it's your car, which can pack 50 microprocessors to control everything from the fuel mix to the rearview mirrors.
The recalls and other technical problems besetting Toyota in the last few weeks highlight the risks of relying on electronics instead of the mechanical rods and cables that controlled vehicles for most of the 20th century.
Such advancements bring many benefits, but the worry is that the car is a computer on wheels that could freeze up and potentially crash. No less a computer celebrity than Apple Inc. co-founder Steve Wozniak has said his Toyota Prius sometimes accelerates on its own.
For many years, a car's gas and brake pedals were connected directly to the throttle and the brake assembly. Now computers and electronic sensors govern many of those functions, as well as a vehicle's exhaust system, its inside temperature and a host of other operations.
Those design changes were reviewed this week when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration began looking into 124 reports from consumers that their Toyota Priuses momentarily lost braking ability while traveling over uneven roads, potholes or bumps. Four of the reports involve crashes.
The Prius problem is part of a broader issue for Toyota: Accelerators in its non-hybrid cars can get trapped under floor mats or become stuck on their own and fail to return to the idle position. Toyota has recalled eight top-selling models, involving 2.3 million cars in the U.S. alone.
The wider problems appear to be conventional mechanical issues, but Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said his department would undertake a broad review of whether automobile engines could be disrupted by electromagnetic interference caused by power lines or other sources.
In the Prius, in addition to traditional hydraulic brakes, the car has an electronically operated braking system to recover some of the energy lost as the car slows. Some of that energy is sent to the battery that powers the Prius' electric motor. The hybrid design saves fuel and reduces emissions, but it increases the complexity of the car and the number of potential failures.
One explanation Toyota has offered for the Prius problems is that there's a time lag when the Prius switches between its gas engine and the electric motor. The car would then be delayed in switching between the traditional hydraulic brakes and the electronic braking system.
However, even if there's a momentary lapse of the brakes, they will work if the driver keeps pushing the pedal, the company has said.
On Thursday, Toyota instead pointed toward the antilock braking system. Antilock brakes engage and disengage many times per second to prevent skidding. The company said that it changed settings on the assembly line to prevent "inconsistent brake feel during slow and steady application of brakes on rough or slick road surfaces." It has not recalled cars to make the same change.
The first computer-controlled antilock braking system for cars was introduced in 1971. Yet the technology's complexities can still trip up manufacturers: 39,000 trucks and tractors and 6,000 school buses were recalled in 2000 to fix problems with the software on brakes made by Bendix Corp.
Today's cars are far safer and more reliable than those manufactured without electronic controls, said Bruce Belzowski, assistant research scientist at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute. At the same time, he said, the added complexity demands much more testing in different conditions.
In 2005, Toyota announced a recall of 160,000 Priuses following reports that brake lights lit up for no reason and gasoline engines shut down of their own accord. The culprit was the software controlling critical car functions.
Software also appears to be to blame at Ford Motor Co., which said Thursday it plans to fix 17,600 Mercury Milan and Ford Fusion gas-electric hybrids because of a glitch that can give drivers the impression the brakes have failed.
The automaker says the problem occurs in transition between two braking systems and at no time are drivers without brakes. Ford spokesman Said Deep says the company will ask owners to bring their vehicles in for a software fix that changes the pedal feel.
Jake Fisher, senior automotive engineer for Consumer Reports magazine, criticized another electronic feature of some Toyotas and Lexuses: the push-button ignition.
To turn the engine off in an emergency, such as when the accelerator is stuck, Toyota and Lexus drivers must hold the button for three seconds - much like a computer can be rebooted by pushing the power button for a while. Drivers of other makes such as Cadillac, Nissan and Infiniti can shut off the engines by pushing the start button more than once. A driver in an emergency may not think to hold the button, but likely would push it several times, Fisher said.
An easier way to turn off the engine may have prevented an accident with a runaway Lexus last summer that killed four people. The gas pedal got stuck under a floormat. (It's not known why the driver did not shift into neutral to slow the car.)
Dennis Virag, president of the Automotive Consulting Group, said Toyota has erred in not adopting a brake override system for all its cars - one that shuts off the fuel supply to the engine if the brakes are engaged and the accelerator is down.
Most other manufacturers have such systems, which can save lives even when the gas pedal is working as intended because there have been many cases of confused drivers stepping on both the brake and the gas at the same time.
Of course, the override makes for yet another layer of electronics between the driver and the car - and another way that vehicles are getting more complex even as they get safer.
http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00205/D9DLMKBO0.html
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-05-2010).] IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17252
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
|
Ford: A Brake Problem, Or A Software Upgrade?
Ford (F) has offered customers who bought some 2010 Fusion and Mercury Milan hybrids “a customer satisfaction program to update the software of the regenerative brake system.” Many media outlets are depicting this as a sort of recall. According to Reuters, “Ford’s action came after Consumer Reports said one of its test engineers had experienced what appeared to be a loss of braking power with a Fusion hybrid.” The news service adds, “The No. 2 U.S. automaker by sales notified its dealers of the problem in October but not the public because it did not believe the glitch represents a failure of the brakes.”
The media descriptions and Ford’s own, raise the question of whether any car company with a glitch or something more serious in the operation of its vehicles, will be dragged into the category of Toyota which has recalled and shut down production of eight of its most popular models. The Japanese car giant also faces questions about brake safety on some of its popular Prius hybrid. The trouble has prompted an investigation by the federal government.
A Google search of the term “Ford recall” brings back results about the Fusion and Mercury Milan brake software upgrade. Some news outlet even use the term “recall” in their description of the car company actions.
Ford, it seems, has been caught up in the recall media frenzy.IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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Another accident from unintended acceleration. These are poping up everywhere:
http://news.yahoo.com/video...86557#video=17986417
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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Bias. Interesting word. One which denotes prejudice. Which couldn't be further from the truth.
Symptoms which afflict the loyal Toyota customer. Another interesting phrase. One which denotes steadfast ignorance to the crap they buy ?
The inability to accept problems for what they are and seek an alternate solution. Another interesting judgment by you. I did not seek an alternate solution, I stated a fact. With me, the buck still stops with Toyota. We do not know of a possible fault with the American pedal manufacturer. We also do not know if they did like the Chinese do, making it on the cheap ? Perhaps that is what we should be discussing. I don't remember pedals manufactured outside of America having this problem.
What caused me to buy my first Toyota, was the body style of the 77 Celica hatchback. Which looked a lot like the 69/70 Mustang fastback. Of which I had owned both year models. I was also poor. A new wife and newborn kids (a year to two or more old). I got a deal on it. It was a good car which gave me much pleasure and trouble free service. The hatchback, the whole car really, also reminded me of my hatchback Vegas of which I had many.
I have never gave a crap about public perception. Hence my posting in this thread. Give me my dues. I am not some panty waist liberal who will not defend his beliefs. I ain't scared that I am out numbered. You also assume that I love Consumer Reports and JD Powers when they fit my agenda ? Yep. That would be a prejudiced assumption, . People like me ? Another prejudiced opinion. My opinion of them suddenly changed ? When was that ?
I would not know that Toyota's reliability has been going down for years. With firsthand experience. Yet you know better how ? The reliability of American autos ? Could it get any worse ? There is a reason they needed a bail out.
Really, ? Well, Big Auto had decades to turn their image around. The bad taste that they left in customer's mouths followed them. Good luck Toyota, .
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Honestly, your argument is turning into some weird Socratic tangent. Whatever your argument actually is, it's getting lost to me. What EXACTLY is it that you're arguing?
It seems to me that what I see from you is denial that there are ANY problems associated with Toyota models. It appears as though you have an excuse for why every perceived issue on a Toyota is really happening, and Toyota doesn't seem to be to blamed for anything as far as you're concerned. You also seem to continue to need to point out that other companies in the past have also had recalls of one type or another. What is the point of that? To show us that other companies suck EQUALLY as bad as Toyota? If anything, it only looks MUCH worse for Toyota because after all the recalls and growing pains the industry has seen, it's obvious that Toyota didn't learn from any of the mistakes of it's competitors in the past.
I guess this is an attempt to defer blame... which is what Democrats do ALL the time. When one of their guys does something wrong, the immediate answer is "well, everyone is bad..." rather than accepting an incident for what it is.This is sad Cliff...
| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Ford: A Brake Problem, Or A Software Upgrade?
Ford (F) has offered customers who bought some 2010 Fusion and Mercury Milan hybrids “a customer satisfaction program to update the software of the regenerative brake system.” Many media outlets are depicting this as a sort of recall. According to Reuters, “Ford’s action came after Consumer Reports said one of its test engineers had experienced what appeared to be a loss of braking power with a Fusion hybrid.” The news service adds, “The No. 2 U.S. automaker by sales notified its dealers of the problem in October but not the public because it did not believe the glitch represents a failure of the brakes.”
The media descriptions and Ford’s own, raise the question of whether any car company with a glitch or something more serious in the operation of its vehicles, will be dragged into the category of Toyota which has recalled and shut down production of eight of its most popular models. The Japanese car giant also faces questions about brake safety on some of its popular Prius hybrid. The trouble has prompted an investigation by the federal government.
A Google search of the term “Ford recall” brings back results about the Fusion and Mercury Milan brake software upgrade. Some news outlet even use the term “recall” in their description of the car company actions.
Ford, it seems, has been caught up in the recall media frenzy. |
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You are JUST like a Democrat, Cliff... you're purposly leaving out parts of information that are critical to meaning the difference between life and death in this argument. The Ford Fusion maintains hydraulic braking power AT ALL TIMES. The only thing the regenerative braking system provides is additional braking boost. When the regenerative system fails, the Fusion and Milan revert back to the hydraulic system which is ALWAYS present. It simply loses brake boost. This is totally unlike the Prius brakes which COMPLETELY fail.
Direct quote from the TSB (TSB-09-22-11):
| | | quote |
electronic interference might cause the electronic brake-by-wire module to switch itself off temporarily. If that happened, the braking system would revert to a backup conventional hydraulic mode that preserved braking capability, but the pedal will drop over an inch. When the engine is restarted, the electronic braking system would resume…. Ford engineering representatives explained that the software threshold for establishing a fault in the regenerative brake system was set too sensitively, causing the system to transition to conventional brakes when it was not necessary.
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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 02-05-2010).] IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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double postIP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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I thought DOT regs were that all brakes had to be hydraulic and all e brakes had to be separate from the hydraulic and controlled by a cable?
Not electric.
This started out as more of an informational thread than a Toyota bashing thread. Recalls are common to all manufacturers. This is a car forum and we should welcome any and all info about recalls to any manufacturer.
Not try and just bury our heads in the sand because we own one.
Just for those trying to divert the thread away from the fact that this is a life threatening problem.
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I thought DOT regs were that all brakes had to be hydraulic and all e brakes had to be separate from the hydraulic and controlled by a cable?
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It appears that would explain why the Ford pedal drops an inch if / when the electric braking system fails. Obviously, it had to have passed DOT otherwise it wouldn't be there. I'm glad Ford had the forethought to develop a backup breaking system other than just relying on the emergency hand-brake.------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
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2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
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84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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News Flash.........................
Toyota chief apologizes for global recalls
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Feb 5, 9:02 AM (ET)
By YURI KAGEYAMA
(AP) Toyota Motor Corp. President Akio Toyoda reacts during a news conference at a Toyota office in...
Full Image
TOKYO (AP) - Toyota's president apologized Friday for the massive global recalls over sticking gas pedals as the automaker scrambles to repair a damaged reputation and sliding sales.
But Akio Toyoda, appointed to the top job at Toyota Motor Corp. last June, said the company is still deciding what steps to take to fix brake problems in the popular Prius gas-electric hybrid.
Speaking at a hastily announced news conference that lasted an hour, a stern-looking Toyoda promised to beef up quality control.
"We are facing a crisis," he said, publicly confronting the automaker's safety problems for the first time since the global recalls were announced Jan. 21.
He said the company is setting up a special committee he would head himself.
It would review internal checks, go over consumer complaints and listen to outside experts to come up with a solution to the widening quality problems.
"I offer my apologies for the worries," he said. "Many customers are wondering whether their cars are OK."
Toyoda, grandson of the automaker's founder, said the company was moving quickly on the global recalls covering 4.5 million vehicles for sticking gas pedals, about half of them in the U.S.
Dealers are scrambling to make repairs on the gas pedals, which need a new steel part to solve the sticking problem.
(AP) Graphic shows yearly sales figures of eight recalled Toyota vehicle models
Full Image
Toyota would fully cooperate with the investigation by U.S. federal authorities into Prius problems, Toyoda said.
There have been nearly 200 complaints in Japan and the U.S. of drivers experiencing a short delay before the brakes kick in - a problem that can be fixed with a software programming change.
The automaker has fixed the programming glitch in Prius models that went on sale since last month, but has done nothing yet on 270,000 Prius cars sold last year in Japan and the U.S. The remodeled third-generation Prius went on sale in May last year.
A less-than-perfect Prius, the vehicle of choice for Hollywood movie stars like Leonardo Dicaprio, threatens to be an even more serious blow for Toyota's image than the gas pedal recalls. The hybrid is a symbol of Toyota's technological prowess and ambitions to lead the auto industry in green, low-pollution cars.
Toyota is also investigating possible brake problems with its luxury Lexus hybrid and the Sai compact sedan, both of which use the same brake system as the Prius. Toyota has not received any complaints about the Lexus HS250h and the probe is to ensure safety, it has said. The Sai is not sold outside Japan.
Toyoda, 53, has been criticized for not coming out sooner to answer questions about the flood of quality problems that have hit Toyota.
Masaaki Sato, an auto industry expert who has written books on Toyota and its Japanese rival Honda, said Friday's public appearance was the company's last chance to keep the situation from worsening.
"He should have come out a week ago," Sato said of Toyoda during an appearance on a popular late night news program following the press conference. "After all the foot dragging, he was pushed into a corner."
Sato also criticized Toyoda for having to be prodded into action in the U.S. by Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, who called the Toyota president for talks.
"The issue is a huge problem in the U.S., far more serious than you might think," Sato said. "Those who are driving Toyota cars must be worried, and as Toyota CEO he has a responsibility to address their concerns and provide an explanation to the U.S. government."
Shinichi Sasaki, executive vice president overseeing quality control, told the news conference he was grateful that LaHood had pressed Toyota to go ahead quickly with the gas pedal recalls in the U.S.
Toyota did not have a fix for the problem at the time, and it is relatively unusual to announce a recall without a plan for a remedy. Toyota did not come out with a fix for more than a week, further frustrating customers. It also suspended sales and production on eight models in the U.S.
"It would have become even harder to win back the trust of customers, and the damage to the Toyota brand would have been greater," Sasaki said solemnly. "It was hard but in hindsight I am grateful to Mr. LaHood."
U.S. officials have blessed Toyota's solution to the gas pedal problem, a small piece of steel designed to eliminate excess friction in the pedal mechanism, but have criticized Toyota for being too slow in responding to customer complaints.
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
avengador1
Member Posts: 24112
From: Orlando, Florida
Registered: Oct 2001
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Did anyone else see the fix they are doing for this? They showed it on the news last night. They take the gas pedal assembly out and add a shim to the gas pedal. I guess it is supposed to preload the pedal return switch or was it used to spread the assembly apart a bit?  [This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 02-05-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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And reflash the computer to add the failsafe that should have been there in the first place.
But who knows what else is in that reflash.
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-05-2010).] IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4022
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by avengador1:
Did anyone else see the fix they are doing for this? They showed it on the news last night. They take the gas pedal assembly out and add a shim to the gas pedal. I guess it is supposed to preload the pedal return switch or was it used to spread the assembly apart a bit?
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I wonder how many future problems will surface due to this little shim being added? Obviously it probably wasn't designed to have this shim in there, and I can only assume all the surrounding materials are plastic. Removing all this stuff will only fatigue the plastic and will add additional stress to the rest of the components.
I hope they know what they're doing...
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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
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1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8334
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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From the Toyota recall thread.
| | | quote | Originally posted by dennis_6:
Its deeper than this, and I found this funny because of all the American's whom spit on American products and worship Japanese products.
Toyota 'knew of gas pedal fault in 2007,' but firm says problem this time different
http://www.tradingmarkets.c...ifferent-741036.html
"CTS claims the more dangerous “unintended acceleration” problem has been known since 1999 in some Lexus models before it made the accelerators in question. One dramatic account is of a 77-year-old Flint, Mich. woman who was killed instantly when her 2005 Camry with 17,000 miles on it struck a tree at 80 MPH."
http://www.smartplanet.com/...more-questions/2920/
Want a better source for the 10 year bit, google it, heard about CTS claiming that on radio, posted first link I found.
CHP officer and family killed in Lexus,
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/video?id=7017760
Driver was CHP, car was loaner from dealer I believe, no warning that off switch had to be held for 3 seconds to kill engine. Other occupants were 13yo girl, 40 something yo wife, 38 yo brother in law.
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Yup now that’s a well made car. 
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged | |
