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Author
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Topic: I wonder if we will ever know the truth.
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2.5
Member Posts: 10124
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007
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Drive
By
Wire
http://www.thewowimages.com...nderful-driving.html
PAGE 3![This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 01-28-2010).] IP: Logged |
blackrams
Member Posts: 14882
From: Frankfort, KY, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Toyota Neglects To Mention Sale Of Vehicles Halted Because Feds Forced Them [Toyota Recall]
By Matt Hardigree, 11:45 AM on Wed Jan 27, 2010
Yesterday, Toyota announced they'd stop selling eight vehicles with sudden-fiery-death-accelerator-pedals . What they failed to mention was this is something they were legally forced to do.
According to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration administrator David Strickland, in an interview with The Detroit News , the move was a legal obligation and "We informed them of the obligations, and they complied."
Toyota neglected to mention this in their initial press release announcing the decision. We're guessing this is because no one wants to admit the government made them stop selling the cars over safety concerns.
What remains unclear is why Toyota continued to sell the cars after the recall, if the government stepped in to make it happen, or how Toyota's dealer network is going to react to the way this was handled.
[ The Detroit News</a
http://m.jalopnik.com/site?...00unw&sid=jalopnikip
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Based on this report, I can only credit Toyota with putting a positive spin on a bad situation. Not good, not good at all.
RonIP: Logged |
loafer87gt
Member Posts: 3968
From: Canada
Registered: Aug 99
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
DBW?
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I think he means computer controlled drive by wire setups, Steve.
IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4035
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by loafer87gt:
LOL - this is just darwinism in action. Rather than being a complete idiot and calling 911, why didn't he just shift the car into neutral or turn off the car? Does the stuck accelerator pedal also lock out the transmission? I would think not... |
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I'd tend to agree on it, however this was a loaner car for the guy, and I BELIEVE it had a keyless push-button start ignition.
But yeah, he seemed pretty calm when he first called...
I've been in that situation and it IS hard to react when the car is hauling ass.
Many years ago, my 85 Fiero GT got the pedal stuck behind the floor mat when I floored it. Luckily I was all by myself and it was late at night, I was just having fun with the car.
It was a stick, and I actually shifted the to the next gear (second) while I figured out what was wrong. It was a 4.10:1 4-Speed manual that had been swapped in from a 4 cyl Cavalier... so it was winding through the rpms fast. It all happened within a span of a couple of seconds. What I ended up doing was pushing in the clutch while the engine proceeded to bounce off the rev limiter like 2 times in neutral until I turned the key off.
Heh...
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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by loafer87gt:
The problematic pedals plaguing Toyota were made at CTS's plant in Ontario, Canada. They have admitted fault, and are ramping up production to produce the redesigned replacement pedals.
http://www.theglobeandmail....ight/article1446670/
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Some info about DBW from WKI.
There are two primary types of throttle position sensors: a potentiometer or a Hall Effect sensor (magnetic device). The potentiometer is a satisfactory way for non-critical applications such as volume control on a radio, but as it has a wiper contact rubbing against a resistance element, dirt and wear between the wiper and the resistor can cause erratic readings. The more reliable solution is the magnetic coupling that makes no physical contact, so will never be subject to failing by wear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...nic_throttle_control
So the type used in these Toyotas is the potentiometer or not the best type for this application?
Made for Toyota by their specs?
Just trying to understand how they trying to shift the blame to anyone.
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
SGS
Member Posts: 706
From: Sherwood Forest
Registered: Jan 2010
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In many cases, manufacturers simply provide a loose specification for a part, and all of the design is done by the 3rd party supplier. Many people think that a Toyota or a GM will basically send detailed schematics and plans to a vendor, and they simply make the parts, but in MANY cases, that's just not how it is.
You'd be surprised at how much of a new car is NOT designed or fabricated by the manufacturer.
So, it's certainly possible that Toyota could have told this vendor that they want a throttle pedal assembly with this type of sensor, this pedal shape, this stroke, this mounting bracket, and how they reach that goal is up to them. The devil is in the details, and although that sounds like it's pretty well spelled out, it's really not.IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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Absolutely true. A company will often solicit bids for an item and all they say is "We need it to fit in this area, with these interfaces and we need it to perform the following function(s)".
(more or less anyway)
It's much the same way that the military does when it gets ready to replace an aging fighter plane. The branches of the pentagon decide what the fighter needs to do in it's role, and asks for the manufactors to submit a bid and a prototype for a flyoff competition--just on a smaller scale. The pentagon doesn't get into the design aspect very much at all, especially in the smaller parts. They leave all that up to the contractors, and so does most of private business like automakers, home appliance makers, and virtually everyone else, but that doesn't let the manufactorer off the hook to blame the vendor--Joe Public doesn't get a warranty from the individual vendors-- just from the manufactorer. IP: Logged |
Wichita
Member Posts: 10933
From: Wichita, Kansas
Registered: Jun 2002
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I'm just curious if this is a case of industrial sabotage. It's kind of convenient for the Obama administration to close all Toyota factories down, and then have GM pull an incentive program to lure away Toyota owners.
Just saying. IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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Possible, but from what the WSJ is reporting, Hyundai and Ford are getting the bulk of dissatisfied Toyota buyers. Both are offering deals similar to what GM offers and they are doing well with it. GM will increase their sales somewhat, but they still can't compete with Ford and Hyundai--there are still too many sour grapes over a number of things in GM.IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Toyota finds fix for gas pedals; update due Friday
Email this Story
Jan 29, 9:54 AM (ET)
By TOM KRISHER and KEN THOMAS
DETROIT (AP) - Toyota Motor Corp. has told employees that it has figured out how to fix a problem with sticking accelerator pedals and will brief them on the details on Friday.
The company said in an e-mail to employees obtained by The Associated Press that it presented the remedy to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. The memo did not say when the repairs would make their way to customers.
"Plans are being developed on a variety of fronts. Tomorrow, we will update you with further details," Toyota said in the e-mail, sent Thursday night.
The company said on its Web site that engineers are working around the clock to fix the problem in eight of its models, including the top-selling Camry midsize sedan.
The automaker and the company that makes the gas pedal systems says the accelerators rarely stick.
But earlier this week Toyota halted sales and production of the models. It has recalled at least 2.4 million cars and trucks in the U.S., Europe and China because of the problem.
A second House committee, meanwhile, is launching an investigation into the problems with Toyota's accelerator pedal systems. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee has scheduled a Feb. 4 hearing entitled, "Toyota Gas Pedals: Is the Public at Risk?"
"There appears to be growing public confusion regarding which vehicles may be affected and how people should respond. In short, the public is unsure as to what exactly the problem is, whether it is safe to drive their cars, or what they should do about it," wrote Chairman Edolphus Towns, D-N.Y., in a letter Thursday to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.
Separately, a House investigative panel is planning a Feb. 25 hearing on the Toyota recalls. In a letter to NHTSA administrator David Strickland, lawmakers requested a timeline from January 2000 until the present for NHTSA's investigations into Toyota defects and other data related to reports of sudden acceleration.
http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00129/D9DHFDBO1.html
I wonder if we will ever know the truth.------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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APNewsBreak: Toyota sends gas pedals to factories
Email this Story
Jan 29, 2:42 PM (ET)
By TOM KRISHER
P { MARGIN: 12px 0px 0px }
DETROIT (AP) - The Associated Press has learned that Toyota is sending new gas pedal systems to car factories rather than dealerships who want the parts to take care of millions of customers whose pedals may stick.
Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons confirms information in a company e-mail obtained by the AP that says parts were shipped to factories. Lyons says that's how the company normally distributes parts.
But some dealers say they should get the parts first because they now have no way to fix the pedals on any of the 4.2 million recalled vehicles affecting eight U.S. models.
Toyota has halted production and sales of the models, including the best-selling Camry sedan.
Lyons said Toyota did not send the parts to dealers because it has not decided whether to have the systems in the recalled vehicles repaired or replaced.
The company on Thursday presented a remedy to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, and it is awaiting a decision before proceeding.
"We're not ready to launch this program yet," Lyons said, adding that letters must be sent to customers whose vehicles were recalled and service technicians must be trained on whatever solution the company ultimately decides.
He said he did not know if any parts had been shipped from factories to parts depots, which is the next step in the process, but dealerships don't have them.
Engineers and other workers were up all night Thursday getting the process ready, he said.
The company has said its highest priority is fixing the pedals for existing customers.
"Nothing is more important to Toyota than doing the right thing for our customers - and restoring their confidence in the safety of our vehicles," Toyota said in a statement.
Toyota has recalled cars and trucks in the U.S., Europe and China because of the faulty gas pedals.
The U.S. House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is launching an investigation into the problems with Toyota's accelerator pedal systems. It has scheduled a Feb. 4 hearing entitled, "Toyota Gas Pedals: Is the Public at Risk?"
"There appears to be growing public confusion regarding which vehicles may be affected and how people should respond. In short, the public is unsure as to what exactly the problem is, whether it is safe to drive their cars, or what they should do about it," wrote Chairman Edolphus Towns, D-N.Y., in a letter Thursday to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.
Separately, a House investigative panel is planning a Feb. 25 hearing on the Toyota recalls. In a letter to NHTSA administrator David Strickland, lawmakers requested a timeline from January 2000 until the present for NHTSA's investigations into Toyota defects and other data related to reports of sudden acceleration.
---
http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00129/D9DHJKF81.html
Sending a part from the part maker to the factory, then the parts depot is their normal route?
Should be just the opposite.
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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For Toyota drivers, confusion and growing anger
Email this Story
Jan 29, 5:27 PM (ET)
By ERIN McCLAM and EMILY FREDRIX
Toyota executives have been virtually silent amid a recall of millions of their cars because gas pedals can become dangerously stuck. For their customers, oh, what a feeling - fear, frustration, confusion and anger.
Since Tuesday, when the Japanese automaker said it would stop making and selling some of its top-selling models, the company has had few answers for dealers and drivers - most notably when Toyota owners could get their cars fixed and hit the road without worrying.
"I'm stuck with this car," said Tony Raasch of Hales Corners, Wis., who said he hit another driver in his 2010 Corolla two weeks ago when the car suddenly accelerated. "I really don't know what to do. I just feel - I guess - ripped off is the best way to put it."
Toyota first recalled 2.3 million vehicles, including the popular Camry and Corolla, because of faulty gas pedals. Later in the week, it expanded the recall to Europe and recalled 1.1 million more in the U.S. because of floor mats that can catch the accelerator.
Almost certainly adding to driver frustration, Toyota is sending new gas pedal systems to its factories, not to dealerships that want the parts to take care of customers' cars, The Associated Press learned.
It took until Friday for CEO Akio Toyoda to make his first public comments about the recalls. Buttonholed by a camera crew at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, he told Japanese broadcaster NHK: "I am very sorry that we are making our customers feel concerned."
In its worst crisis in recent memory, the company has communicated with the public in a series of very limited statements from spokesmen. One of them, Brian Lyons, said he was restricted to describing the problem as "rare and infrequent."
For days, there was no indication of how long it might take to get the affected Toyotas fixed, whether the fix would be a repair or a replacement, or whether it was even safe for drivers to take their cars to the dealership.
The company finally said Friday that details on the fix will be made available next week and should take about a month to implement.
Among Toyota's famously loyal customer base, frustration and anger mounted through the week.
Laurie Strong, a nurse from Bristol, R.I., drives a 2010 Camry and said she noticed the gas pedal seemed too sensitive - "0 to 40 in a parking lot" - when she bought the car last summer. She went to the dealership Wednesday and refused to drive it anymore.
Strong, who was ultimately given a Kia, said she had repeatedly dialed a Toyota hot line only to get a message saying it could not handle calls. A Toyota customer for years, she now says she's put off.
"I would be less upset and less confused if I had a person on the other end of the phone who could talk to me and tell me what my options are - what they think quite honestly, what the time frame for figuring this out and putting this into motion."
It made for a maddening week for Toyota dealers, too. Jason Stewart, general manager of a dealership in North Palm Beach, Fla., said he doesn't know what to tell customers and has found out more about the problem from watching the news than from Toyota.
"People on the phone, they're very scared," said Douglas Lima, the service manager at Toyota Central in downtown Los Angeles. "I received phone calls screaming and yelling and using bad words. You just hear them out."
On Friday, Toyota's Web site was featuring bold, brightly colored ads for its cars and trucks, like the Prius and the 4Runner. At the bottom of the home page was a small strip with a link to information on the recall.
Even some prominent rental-car companies went further than Toyota did, sending their customers e-mails throughout the week keeping them posted - in most cases saying they were removing all of the affected models from their fleets.
Toyota's response, by contrast, has left experts in crisis management scratching their heads. Some wondered why Toyota didn't mount a full-court press - full-page ads in newspapers, executives readily available to the morning shows, ramped-up customer service.
Toyota is certainly no stranger to advertising. The company alone - not its dealers - spent $629.4 million on it in the first nine months of last year, according to Kantar Media, which tracks advertising spending.
A simple, honest, humble message would have gone a long way, said Jonathan Bernstein, president of Bernstein Crisis Management. He said the company should have sent the word out online, by e-mail, with letters - whatever it takes.
His suggestion: Toyota should say it was as surprised as anyone by the scope of the problem and deeply regrets the inconvenience, and pledge to get up to speed as quickly as possible and provide regular updates.
"Anytime there's a threat to health or safety, there's nothing that creates bigger concern. Nothing that freaks people out more," he said. "You're dealing with very intense feelings, and that requires sensitive and appropriate communications."
The Associated Press requested interviews Friday with Yoshi Inaba, chairman and CEO of Toyota Motor North America, the company's top U.S. executive. It also requested interviews with other top executives. A spokesman said he would look into the request. Telephone and e-mail messages left for the safety public relations team at Toyota were not returned Friday.
In the meantime, drivers like Johnathan Jones, who lives in Fort Mitchell, Ala., and has a 30-mile commute each way in his 2009 Tundra, will keep waiting.
"I've got a $30,000 vehicle and they don't even know how to fix it," he said, huffing. "To me, it's a big safety hazard with my children. I don't want to even put them in there."
---
AP Retail Writer Emily Fredrix reported from Milwaukee. Also contributing to this report were AP Auto Writer Tom Krisher in Detroit and Associated Press writers Carrie Antlfinger in Milwaukee, Robert Jablon in Los Angeles, Brian Skoloff in North Palm Beach, Fla., and Eric Tucker in Providence, R.I.
http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00129/D9DHM1OO0.html
Sounds like some real satisfied customers.
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4035
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
For Toyota drivers, confusion and growing anger
Sounds like some real satisfied customers.
Steve
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Steve...
... ....
I am trying DESPERATELY... desperately... to contain myself. I'm trying to find the strength to not act in such a way that celebrates the failure and misfortune of someone else.
Before I go on with my diatribe... I'd just like to mention that it's horrible that this has happened and that people have lost their lives. In addition, I hope this does NOT affect any jobs at factories or otherwise here in America (dealerships, etc...)
Now... I'd like to point out a few things though as positives to this debacle...
1 - For years, there has always been an arrogance that emminates from Toyota owners and dealerships. Despite the fact that many of their cars have been of sub-par quality. Take for example... the Toyota Corolla. Through the majority of the 90s, the Corolla was absolutely a piece of garbage. I had a girlfriend that drove one, and both front windows fell into the door (like VW Jettas) because of the use of a plastic windo clip that holds the window to a cable. Ignition coil failures, sub-par paint, among others. This arrogance from these owners that they were driving "superior" vehicles was drastically misplaced. Only recently has Consumer Reports (which is "powered" by consumer reviews) begun to reflect the reality which is Toyota. Toyota had excellent marketing in the 80s. This fueled a misplaced opinion that the vehicles were superior. Now though, people are starting to realize that when their car breaks... it's not just a factory fluke... it's because it's poop smells equally as bad as that of a Cavalier. Consumer reports has tanked Toyota in the past couple of years, and they've responded poorly. The management's arrogance has caused them to stumble and fumble the ball.
2 - With everything going on... Toyota stands to basically lose it's entire financial cushion that it's built over the past decade. We're seeing numbers approacing double digit billions when this is all done. This will put Toyota on equal footing as the rest of the auto industry in America. This will give a chance for General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler to pick up the slack that will be left by Toyota.
3 - One of the things I've noticed, as I'm sure you have too. In the past 10 years or so, any recall made by an American car company hits the news like Pearl Harbor. GM recalls two models for a problem with a power window switch, and it's headline news. But... when Toyota makes a recall on 10 models for steering column failures which would cause people to lose control of their vehicle and die... it goes un-noticed by the media.. or, it gets added to the bottom of a general news report. (Click here for proof on that recall... I know that no one remembers ths, but I did... : http://www.productsthathurt...hicles-worldwide.php ). At least now... Toyota will be the guinea pig of the media for years to come and will give the big three some time repair from the damage they caused.
4 - Let me remind everyone that after the Japanese signed their unconditional surrender on the deck of the Mighty Mo... they said if they couldn't beat us militarily... they would beat us economically. Bring it on...
5 - Oh yeah... if anyone is upset with my comments... well, I'm sorry to say but you're just going to have to live with the fact that I don't give a damn. 
It's good to know we agree on some things, Steve...------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
fierofetish
Member Posts: 13396
From: Northeast Spain
Registered: Jul 2003
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haven't read every post, but Sky News announced that Toyota are recalling thousand of cars in the UK too..and those are built in Sunderland UK, not Canada. Unless the canadian factories make them for the whole World 
NickIP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4035
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by fierofetish:
haven't read every post, but Sky News announced that Toyota are recalling thousand of cars in the UK too..and those are built in Sunderland UK, not Canada. Unless the canadian factories make them for the whole World
Nick |
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There's actually been reports now that the problem may actually be due to the programming in the ECM and not the pedal itself after all.
EDIT: THIS JUST IN : Honda Recalls 646,000 Cars for Fire Hazard
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584277,00.html[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-29-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
There's actually been reports now that the problem may actually be due to the programming in the ECM and not the pedal itself after all.
EDIT: THIS JUST IN : Honda Recalls 646,000 Cars for Fire Hazard
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584277,00.html
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I said that in my first post.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I wonder just what the problem really is, the computer maybe ??
Anyone else think there is more to this than they are telling us?
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
motoracer838
Member Posts: 2132
From: Edgewater Co. USofA
Registered: Jan 2006
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I've said it before and I will continue to say it, I'm not a fan of technology for technology's sake. I really don't like the inclusion of high tech where a simple mechanical device has worked fine for decades. Back in the day when there was a rod for throttle linkage before cables were used, stuck throttles were almost commonplace, this was caused typicaly by broken motor mounts, the engine would rock up on acceleration and bind up the linkage, people delt with it and more often than not didn't have a crash!!! It happened to me more than once, I'm still here.
I don't want a car with DWB, if that means I'm stuck driving older cars, that's a choice I can live with. Auto manufacturers, ARE YOU LISTENING???
JoeIP: Logged |
SGS
Member Posts: 706
From: Sherwood Forest
Registered: Jan 2010
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They're listening. But throttle by wire actually simplifies cars these days. Since most cars have cruise control, using throttle by wire actually reduces the number of components and complexity in the car. With a cable actuated throttle, I need some sort of servo, linkage, and controller for the cruise control. Now, all I need is some software in the ECM....the rest of the parts are already there.IP: Logged |
hammer18
Member Posts: 187
From: Maplewood Minnesota
Registered: Jun 2007
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double post[This message has been edited by hammer18 (edited 01-29-2010).] IP: Logged |
hammer18
Member Posts: 187
From: Maplewood Minnesota
Registered: Jun 2007
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Something I find unusual is they are just shutting down US plants. At least they only mention US plants in this.
Do they not make these cars in Japan?
Are they made differently in Japan?
Did different engineers design the ones made here?
Did they design them differently for the US?
Anyone think there is something rotten in Japan?
Steve
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There are two different manufactures and designs for the gas pedals all the pedals in the vehicles that come from Japan (vin starts with a j) are different and are not faulty. the U.S. and Japan pedals are very similar looking but are different. and i beleive but i might be wrong but the u.s spec pedals were made in canada.
and im a toyota tech so thats how i know...[This message has been edited by hammer18 (edited 01-29-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Japan not as worried about US Toyota recalls
Email this Story
Jan 30, 5:48 AM (ET)
By YURI KAGEYAMA
P { MARGIN: 12px 0px 0px }
TOKYO (AP) - American Toyota owners are understandably alarmed about ballooning recalls over faulty gas pedals and floor mats. In Japan, the automaker's home market, where there have been no such recalls, the reaction is - also understandably - muted.
Some of the same Toyota Motor Corp. models recalled in the U.S., Europe and China are on Japanese roads. But they use a different parts supplier than CTS Corp., the American parts-maker which has been rushing to fix the faulty parts behind the massive recalls.
Dealers in the U.S. are being deluged with queries from worried customers. For dealers in Japan, it's basically business as usual.
"Some of our customers express sympathy about Toyota's overseas problems," Naeko Kawamata, a saleswoman at a Tokyo Toyota dealer, said Saturday. "But we aren't getting queries on recalls."
So far, Toyota's reputation for quality is holding up in Japan. One factor in Toyota's favor is that Japanese often assume that Japan-made products are better than those made abroad - meaning that their Toyotas are safe.
"I think Toyota cars are very reliable," said Takashi Itoh, a photographer whose family members drive Toyota models.
"The cars being recalled in China and the U.S. aren't made in Japan. They were made there. Those kind of problems definitely won't happen in Japan," he said.
Some Japanese experts are optimistic the fallout from the U.S. woes will fade in a few months - as long as Toyota responds relatively quickly to fix the problem.
They see Toyota's troubles as having crept up because the automaker expanded too quickly over the last several years, making it difficult to duplicate the "Toyota Way," known for impeccable quality controls, in places that are quite different from Japan
"Toyota appears to be trying to respond with care," said Hideaki Miyajima, a professor of business and economics at Tokyo's Waseda University.
"Toyota has grown to where it is now by sticking to safety standards. If it can overcome this problem, it can even make the experience a plus for its future."
Overnight, President Akio Toyoda apologized for the worries the recalls caused Toyota owners.
At the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, he told Japanese public broadcaster NHK, "I am very sorry that we are making our customers feel concerned."
"People can feel safe driving in the current situation," he added. "Please trust that we are responding so it will be even safer."
Toyota said it began shipping gas-pedal parts to its dealers Friday for use in fixing the millions of cars and trucks recalled because of accelerators that could become stuck.
Company spokesman Brian Lyons said he did not know when the parts would arrive or how long it would take the automaker to complete repairs on the 4.2 million vehicles worldwide covered by the recall. He said details of the fix will be announced next week.
After accounting for earlier recalls for floor mats and some vehicles being recalled more than once, the global recall amounts to more than 7 million vehicles, a staggering number.
Hidekai Homma, a Toyota official in Tokyo, said media reports giving that number as the equivalent of Toyota's annual vehicle sales are providing an exaggerated picture of the problem.
"We don't welcome this kind of thinking at all," he told The Associated Press. "No matter what, we believe we have responded speedily to a problem that has come up."
Consumer Reports, an influential U.S. publication, has suspended its "recommended" status for the eight recalled models, dealing another blow to the Japanese automaker's reputation in the U.S.
Toyota stopped selling the eight U.S. models, including the top-selling Camry, on Tuesday. It also announced that it will stop building them in the U.S. until the problem is fixed.
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Kind of unusual that they aren’t worried isn’t it?
Kind of like they don’t care about the rest of the world if you ask me.
Steve
http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00130/D9DI0STO0.html
------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 01-30-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by hammer18:
There are two different manufactures and designs for the gas pedals all the pedals in the vehicles that come from Japan (vin starts with a j) are different and are not faulty. the U.S. and Japan pedals are very similar looking but are different. and i beleive but i might be wrong but the u.s spec pedals were made in canada.
and im a toyota tech so thats how i know...
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A question for you hammer.
If it is a defective gas pedal why did they not program a failsafe into the computer for this problem?
Why not just flash it into the computer?
Seems like that would be a quick and easy fix?
It seems that would be a smart idea and other companies that use DBW system have done that.
Watching a news cast on this right now.
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4035
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by SGS:
They're listening. But throttle by wire actually simplifies cars these days. Since most cars have cruise control, using throttle by wire actually reduces the number of components and complexity in the car. With a cable actuated throttle, I need some sort of servo, linkage, and controller for the cruise control. Now, all I need is some software in the ECM....the rest of the parts are already there. |
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Not only that, but traction control no longer needs to be a function of pulsing the brakes, in most cars now, traction control is now controlled by the ECM which regulates the throttle when it sees wheel slippage.
Almost all new cars are going drive by wire... even the later years of existing platforms. I do NOT like it either.. it serves NO purpose that I can justify from a competent driver. I think it's cheaper and easier for the manufacturers, and that's why they do it.------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
hammer18
Member Posts: 187
From: Maplewood Minnesota
Registered: Jun 2007
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
A question for you hammer.
If it is a defective gas pedal why did they not program a failsafe into the computer for this problem?
Why not just flash it into the computer?
Seems like that would be a quick and easy fix?
It seems that would be a smart idea and other companies that use DBW system have done that.
Watching a news cast on this right now.
Steve
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i had to go to do some special training on the recall for the Camry’s and part of the recall is an ecm reflash along with pedal modifications and carpet modifications. from what i know and they very well might not be telling me everything that’s changed in the reflash but what i was told is that anytime above 20mph or somewhere around there, if the brake pedal and the gas are applied at the same time it will cut the ignition. so you can still do brake stands but all the two footed drivers out there are sol. but things kinda seem like they have changed but its so hard to know what the truth is and what is not with all the reports. personally im only believing what i get sent to me from Toyota. There are like 3 separate recalls involving this whole thing. First is the floor mat one and the specific Camry recall and there is another one for the rest of the effected vehicles involving a shim. But reports i have heard on the news say a whole new gas pedal from what i understand. On Friday Toyota was hoping to have the recall approved by highway safety or some other agency i cant remember. I have not heard anything new since Thursday directly from toyota though.
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cliffw
Member Posts: 17266
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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Mad customer crashes his Tundra into Toyoata dealership showroom.
| | | quote | linky
BATON ROUGE, LA (WAFB) - A Toyota Tundra crashed into the showroom at All Star Toyota on Airline Hwy. near Goodwood Blvd. in Baton Rouge on Saturday morning. Officers said a customer tried to return his truck following a recent recall on the accelerator.
According to the Baton Rouge Police Department, the general manager offered to fix the truck and repeatedly offered to give the customer a loaner in the meantime, but the customer declined and left the building. Police reported the man then drove his Toyota into the side of the dealership, causing major damage to the truck and the building.
The customer claimed his accelerator became stuck, causing the crash. All Star said the truck was purchased last March and did not have any records of mechanical problems.
Police added the accelerator was not stuck when they examined the truck after the crash, but they could not find any evidence that the crash was intentional. The driver was not ticketed.
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84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Mad customer crashes his Tundra into Toyoata dealership showroom.
[QUOTE]linky
BATON ROUGE, LA (WAFB) - A Toyota Tundra crashed into the showroom at All Star Toyota on Airline Hwy. near Goodwood Blvd. in Baton Rouge on Saturday morning. Officers said a customer tried to return his truck following a recent recall on the accelerator.
According to the Baton Rouge Police Department, the general manager offered to fix the truck and repeatedly offered to give the customer a loaner in the meantime, but the customer declined and left the building. Police reported the man then drove his Toyota into the side of the dealership, causing major damage to the truck and the building.
The customer claimed his accelerator became stuck, causing the crash. All Star said the truck was purchased last March and did not have any records of mechanical problems.
Police added the accelerator was not stuck when they examined the truck after the crash, but they could not find any evidence that the crash was intentional. The driver was not ticketed.
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[/QUOTE]
I still say it was the computer, not the pedal itself that is causing this to happen.
Well the computer and pissed off owners in this case. 
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
Cooter
Member Posts: 4750
From: Alabama, USA
Registered: Jun 99
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
BATON ROUGE, LA (WAFB) - A Toyota Tundra crashed into the showroom at All Star Toyota on Airline Hwy. near Goodwood Blvd. in Baton Rouge on Saturday morning. Officers said a customer tried to return his truck following a recent recall on the accelerator.
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I saw that on the news last night and it made me laugh because it sounds like something my dad would have done IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17266
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Cooter:
I saw that on the news last night and it made me laugh because it sounds like something my dad would have done |
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My Dad did, .
Once he was upset with an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Regency he had bought and was mad at the stealership. He happened to be there at a time the showroom big glass doors were open to replace the showroom floor models and he drove right up into the showroom. To emphasize his complaint. He had a sign telling anyone who saw it what he thought about the service.
IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4035
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
My Dad did, .
Once he was upset with an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Regency he had bought and was mad at the stealership. He happened to be there at a time the showroom big glass doors were open to replace the showroom floor models and he drove right up into the showroom. To emphasize his complaint. He had a sign telling anyone who saw it what he thought about the service. |
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Oh man, was this one of those huge 1970-1973 Olds 98 Regency's??? Those things were massive.
When I bought my 2006 Pontiac Solstice, they let me drive it off the showroom floor through those doors on the red carpet.
Schumacher Pontiac / GMC / Buick... awesome dealership. I wish they owned a Ford dealership...
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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
madcurl
Member Posts: 15148
From: In a Van, parked down by the River
Registered: Jul 2003
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-b...29S89.DTL&type=autos
Auto industry recalls at a glance
A look at some large recalls in the U.S. auto industry:
_ Jan. 26: Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. suspends U.S. sales of eight recalled car and truck models, including the best-selling Camry sedan. The aim is to fix gas pedals that can stick and cause unintended acceleration. Toyota says it's unaware of any accidents or injuries due to the pedal problems, but cannot rule them out. The automaker also says it will halt production of the models at six North American assembly plants beginning the first week of February.
_ Jan. 21: Toyota announces U.S. recall of 2.3 million vehicles to fix faulty accelerator pedals, its second large recall in four months in the United States.
_ Oct 13, 2009: Ford Motor Co. adds 4.5 million older-model vehicles to a long list of those recalled due to a defective cruise control switch that can cause fires, pushing Ford's total recall due to faulty switches to 14.3 million. The series of recalls, which began in 1999, becomes the largest cumulative recall in U.S. history. There were more than 1,100 reports of fires from the switches in the U.S. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says there have been no confirmed deaths or injuries, but lawsuits have been filed over three deaths allegedly connected to vehicle fires.
_ Sept. 29, 2009: Toyota recalls 3.8 million U.S. vehicles to address problems with a removable floor mat that could interfere with the vehicle's accelerator and cause a crash. The recall, which on Nov. 25 is expanded to 4.3 million vehicles, is the largest in its history. Owners are advised to take out the floor mats on the driver's side and not replace them. The government attributes at least five deaths and two injuries to accidents in which the gas pedal may have become trapped under the floor mat, causing sudden acceleration.
_ Oct. 2005: Bridgestone Firestone North American Tire agrees to pay $240 million to Ford Motor Co. to settle claims related to the tire maker's 2000 recall of defective tires and the 2001 tire-replacement program.
_ Aug. 2000: Bridgestone Firestone recalls 6.5 million tires. At least 271 people are reported killed and hundreds more injured in accidents involving Firestone ATX and AT tires, which were widely used on Ford Explorers. Safety officials discover tires were prone to losing their tread, causing rollovers. Bridgestone Firestone spends more than $10 million advertising the 2001 recall and sent 2 million recall letters in 2003 to owners under a class-action settlement. Ford separately recalls more than 10 million tires, and the crisis leads to congressional hearings and the passage of the federal TREAD Act in 2000 to spot safety defects earlier.
_ March 2004: General Motors recalls 4 million 2000-2004 pickups worldwide because their tailgates can break without warning. The culprit: common cables that hold the trucks' tailgates in place can corrode or fracture. GM officials say they received reports of 134 injuries related to the cables.
_ March 1996: Ford recalls more than 8 million 1988-1993 cars to replace defective ignition switches in what was the largest single U.S. recall at the time. The switches can produce electrical shorts, causing engine misfires that led to stalling, as well as and brake and steering failures. The problem is implicated in hundreds of vehicle fires, and as many as 11 deaths and 31 injuries. Ford faces multiple lawsuits
_ May 1995: Eleven manufacturers recall 8.9 million vehicles sold from 1986 through 1991 for Japanese-made seat belt defects, because of concerns the buckles sometimes jam or fail to latch or unlatch. NHTSA, which has been investigating the belts for nine months, says it received hundreds of complaints related to the belts, including some 90 injury reports. There are no reports of fatalities linked to the belts.
_ April 1993: NHTSA asks General Motors to recall 4.7 million 1973-1987 full-size pickup trucks with side-mounted fuel tanks.
_ Sept. 1987: Ford recalls 4.3 million 1986-1988 model cars, trucks and vans, including some of its most popular models. Ford says the recall follows 222 reports of engine fires caused by a failure of couplings used to connect fuel lines, which caused eight injuries.
_ Feb. 1981: GM recalls 5.8 million 1978-1981 cars and light trucks for replacement of two bolts which could fail and send the vehicles out of control. The automaker says it had received reports of 27 accidents that resulted in 22 injuries, none of them serious.
_ 1980: The U.S. government allows Ford to mail warning labels to owners of more than 20 million 1970-1980 cars and light trucks with automatic transmissions that can slip into reverse, thus avoiding the largest safety recall in automotive history. The dashboard stickers advise drivers not to leave the vehicle with the engine running, to use the parking brake and to make sure the transmission has been placed in park. However, NHTSA considers the warnings a recall. NHTSA finds that slipping transmissions caused 6,000 accidents resulting in 1,710 injuries and 98 deaths.
_ 1973: GM recalls 3.7 million models of 1971-1972 cars due to engine shield problem that could cause stones to lodge in the steering mechanism.
_ 1972: Ford recalls more than 4 million 1970-1971 models because the shoulder seat belts could break free of the buckle.
_ 1971: GM recalls 6.7 million 1965-1969 various model Chevrolets, to fix faulty engine mounts.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-b...=autos#ixzz0eDDoq0SL[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 01-31-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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And if Toyota had put a failsafe in the computer program like other manufacturers who use DBW to begin with no one would have gotten hurt or killed.
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
motoracer838
Member Posts: 2132
From: Edgewater Co. USofA
Registered: Jan 2006
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I've started using the phrase, "pulling a toyota" to describe getting lazy and complacent.
JoeIP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17266
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Oh man, was this one of those huge 1970-1973 Olds 98 Regency's??? Those things were massive.
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, yeah.
He had a 73 and then a 75, both brand new.
IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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| | | quote | Originally posted by madcurl:
Auto industry recalls at a glance
A look at some large recalls in the U.S. auto industry:
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And this one:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/...9/bs_nm/gm_recall_dc
/\ link may not work anymore--it was a year old.
857,000 GM vehicles recalled in Aug 2008:
| | | quote | A short-circuit in the system may cause other electrical features to malfunction, create an odor or cause smoke, increasing the risk of a fire, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said on its website.
The recall involves the 2007-2008 model year Chevrolet Silverado, Tahoe, Avalanche and Suburban, Cadillac Escalade, Escalade ESV and Escalade EXT, GMC Acadia, Sierra, Yukon, Yukon XL and Saturn Outlook; 2006-2008 Hummer H2, Cadillac DTS and Buick Lucerne; and the 2008 Buick Enclave.
GM plans to install a wire harness with an in-line fuse free of charge to fix the problem, NHTSA said.
Separately, GM is also recalling 88,809 2008-model year Buick Enclave, and 2007-2008 model year GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook SUVs in 28 states and Washington, D.C..
A build-up of snow or ice on the windshield or the wipers may restrict the movement of the wiper arm in the SUVs and could cause the wiper to detach from its motor, according to the NHTSA website. |
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My truck was part of that recall.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...090907-6-058734.html[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-01-2010).] IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4035
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
, yeah.
He had a 73 and then a 75, both brand new. |
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Man, I would kill for one of those, like a 73 or something. They're bad-ass.
------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Toyota pedal fix too late to prevent backlash
Email this Story
Feb 2, 6:03 AM (ET)
By YURI KAGEYAMA
(AP) Graphic shows yearly sales figures of eight recalled Toyota vehicle models
Full Image
NAGOYA, Japan (AP) - Toyota's fix for the gas pedal problem that led to the recall of millions of cars has not come soon enough to prevent a consumer backlash in the U.S. and elsewhere that is battering its sales.
One of the automaker's top executives on Tuesday said the damage from the global recall of nearly 4.6 million vehicles may be greater than previous quality problems because of the massive scale.
"This is unprecedented in having caused this huge problem for customers," said Shinichi Sasaki, who oversees quality control at the world's No. 1 automaker.
He said it was too soon to put a number on the ultimate cost of the recall. But Tatsuo Yoshida, an auto analyst at UBS in Tokyo, estimated the recalls are likely to cost about $900 million, and lost sales are already costing Toyota another $155 million a week.
The recall to fix a gas pedal that can stick when depressed covers some 2.3 million vehicles in the United States alone, including some of Toyota's best-selling models, such as the Camry and Corolla. The company has recalled millions more because of floor mats that can catch the gas pedal.
Toyota apologized to its customers Monday and said a piece of steel about the size of a postage stamp will fix the gas pedal problem. Repairs will take about a half-hour and will start in a matter of days, the company said.
The repair involves installing a steel shim a couple of millimeters thick in the pedal assembly, behind the top of the gas pedal, to eliminate the excess friction between two pieces of the accelerator mechanism. In rare cases, Toyota says, that friction can cause the pedal to become stuck in the depressed position.
Toyota insisted the solution, rolled out six days after it temporarily stopped selling some of its top models, has been through rigorous testing and will solve the problem for the life of the car.
After a week in which Toyota drivers said they were worried about the safety of their cars and dealers were frustrated by a lack of information, Toyota said it would work to regain the trust of its customers.
"This is embarrassing for us to have ... this kind of recall situation," Jim Lentz, president of Toyota Motor Sales USA, told reporters. "But it doesn't necessarily mean that we have lost our edge on quality. But we do have to be vigilant. We have to redouble our efforts to make sure this doesn't happen again."
Earl Stewart, who owns a Toyota dealership in North Palm Beach, Fla., and had been critical of delays in getting repair parts to dealers, said he was happy with the fix. He said he was reassured that it had been tested by independent engineers, not just Toyota's.
"You never say you're absolutely sure about anything, but I feel that this is probably the answer," he said.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it had "no reason to challenge this remedy." Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said last week the government had urged Toyota to issue the recall and suspend production.
Others, meanwhile, say consumers are still likely to be smarting.
Toshirou Yoshinaga, analyst at Aizawa Securities in Tokyo, said Toyota failed to move quickly enough.
"The top management should have gone public sooner to address the American public," he said. "The trust in Japanese quality, in Toyota, has been shaken."
Masaaki Sato, who has written books on Japanese automakers, including Toyota, said the biggest mistake was not having President Akio Toyoda immediately give an explanation and squelch fears among owners.
Toyoda largely ignored media requests for comment on the recalls. He gave an apology to customers when approached by Japanese broadcaster NHK last week while he was in Davos, Switzerland, for a conference.
According to numbers Toyota released Tuesday, the recall covered 4.45 million cars worldwide - 2.48 million of them in North America, 1.71 million in Europe, some 80,000 in China and 180,000 in other regions, including the Middle East.
It estimated repairing all the recalled cars would take months. It said some dealers were planning to stay open around the clock to make the repairs once parts arrived. Parts were expected to begin arriving late Tuesday and Wednesday.
Toyota's European operations said the parts needed to fix the gas pedal problem will start arriving in Europe next week.
Besides millions of dollars a day in lost sales, the recall posed a public-relations challenge to Toyota, which for decades has enjoyed a loyal customer base and a reputation for quality.
Toyota took out full-page newspaper ads declaring the episode a pause "to put you first," and on Monday it sent Lentz to morning news shows to express confidence in the fix.
That was not enough for Michelle Lynch, of Safety Harbor, Fla., who is afraid to drive her 2006 Toyota Avalon after she says her accelerator stuck while she was driving to work on Jan. 25.
Lynch claims the accelerator stuck for about 45 seconds. She says she quickly put the car into neutral and pressed the brakes, regaining control of the vehicle, but she now is concerned the engine may have been damaged.
"Ultimately, I would like to have it fixed and make sure it's fixed right," Lynch said Monday, adding that Toyota has provided "different excuses for what the problem was so it's hard for me to believe that just a simple fix is going to be adequate."
Speaking to reporters at Toyota's Nagoya office, executive vice president Sasaki defended his company's perceived dallying in explaining to consumers, and said it came from Toyota focusing on trying to fix the problem.
Generally after a recall, sales drop about 20 percent in the first month and then gradually recover, said Sasaki. But he acknowledged the latest recalls were unprecedented in scope.
He denied there were any electronic problems in the vehicles being recalled in the U.S., as some have speculated. Toyota investigated and had "not found a single case," he said.
NHTSA was looking into the possibility of such problems, said a Transportation Department official. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation, said electromagnetic interference might cause the throttle control systems in the Toyota vehicles to malfunction, but NHTSA had not seen evidence to support that yet.
The company plans to restart U.S. production Feb. 8 on models covered by the recall - the Camry, Corolla, Avalon and Highlander cars, the Matrix hatchback, the Tundra pickup, the RAV4 crossover and the Sequoia SUV. The production was suspended starting Monday.
Toyota shareholders appeared pleased. The company's stock, which took a hit last week, was up 4.5 percent Tuesday in Tokyo. The broader market was up 1.6 percent.
---
On the Net:
Toyota recall page: http://www.toyota.com/recall/
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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| | | quote | | He denied there were any electronic problems in the vehicles being recalled in the U.S., as some have speculated. Toyota investigated and had "not found a single case," he said. |
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Since I've never ridden in one, much less owned or driven one, I won't speculate but I guess we'll see as time goes on.
IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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He can say what ever he wants.
As I have said before the problem could be in the computer.
And it could have been avoided with a simple default in the computer like other cars have that have the DBW pedal.
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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Actually, you said this:
| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I still say it was the computer, not the pedal itself that is causing this to happen.
Well the computer and pissed off owners in this case.
Steve
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IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8348
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
Actually, you said this:
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Actually it was this Don
| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I wonder just what the problem really is, the computer maybe ??
Anyone else think there is more to this than they are telling us?
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged | |
