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Author
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Topic: I wonder if we will ever know the truth.
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billpapps
Member Posts: 162
From: Ktown TN.
Registered: Jul 2009
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| | | quote | Originally posted by SGS:
Once most factory brake systems heat up and fade, the brakes are worthless....So I can see that if you just punched both pedals, yeah, you could certainly get to 120 mph. Might take a little while, but it certainly possible. |
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There's noway in hell ya going to hold back my 1980 sunbird with just the brakes. And they have been upgraded to Baer 13" front dual piston calipers, 13" rotors.
LS1 Camaro (2003) Rear brakes, single piston, 12" rotors I tried it many times before I got the Trans brake (Grins)
Yea I know where not talking drag cars. But I have run the 1/8 at 4.23 sec. How many secs would it take a normal person to turn off the switch?
The 1 time I had a throttle stuck It took me at least 2 secs to Say to my self somethings not right and 1 more Just to reach for the key.IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Toyota halts US sales of 8 recalled models
Email this Story
Jan 26, 8:29 PM (ET)
By KEN THOMAS
P { MARGIN: 12px 0px 0px }
WASHINGTON (AP) - Toyota Motor Co. said Tuesday it was suspending U.S. sales of eight recalled models to fix accelerator pedals that stick, the latest quality problem to confront the world's No. 1 automaker.
The "stop sale" involves a significant portion of Toyota's fleet and some of its most popular vehicles, including the Camry and Corolla. As part of the plan, Toyota is halting production at five manufacturing facilities for the week of Feb. 1 "to assess and coordinate activities." There are 2.3 million vehicles involved in the recall, which was announced last week.
"This action is necessary until a remedy is finalized," said Bob Carter, Toyota's group vice president and general manager.
The Japanese automaker said the sales suspension includes the 2009-2010 RAV4, the 2009-2010 Corolla, the 2007-2010 Camry, the 2009-2010 Matrix, the 2005-2010 Avalon, the 2010 Highlander, the 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia.
Aaron Bragman, an auto analyst for the consulting firm IHS Global Insight in Troy, Mich., said Toyota typically sells about 65,000 Camrys and Corollas per month, and the suspension of sales could strike the company's bottom line and reputation for quality.
"That's huge if they can't sell these and they don't have a fix identified. They need to go and get a solution to this fast," Bragman said.
Toyota sold more than 34,000 Camrys in December, making the midsize sedan America's best-selling car, with 3.4 percent of the market. Sales rose 38 percent from a year earlier. Sales of the Corolla and Matrix, a small sedan and a hatchback, totaled 34,220 last month, with 3.3 percent of the market and sales up nearly 55 percent from December of 2008.
It was unclear how long Toyota would suspend production of the vehicles. In an e-mail to employees, company officials said, "we don't know yet how long this pause will last but we will make every effort to resume production soon." Toyota officials did not immediately return phone messages.
Toyota said the company would stop producing vehicles at plants in Indiana, Kentucky, Texas and Canada. They said no other North American Toyota facility would be affected by the decision.
The auto company said the sales suspension would not affect Lexus or Scion vehicles. Toyota said the Prius, Tacoma, Sienna, Venza, Solara, Yaris, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, Land Cruiser and select Camry models, including all Camry hybrids, would remain for sale.
Toyota said last week it was recalling 2.3 million vehicles in the U.S. to fix accelerator pedals with mechanical problems that could cause them to become stuck.
That announcement followed a larger recall months earlier of 4.2 million vehicles because of problems with gas pedals becoming trapped under floor mats, causing sudden acceleration. That problem was the cause of several crashes, including some fatalities.
http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00127/D9DFPDSO0.html
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Something I find unusual is they are just shutting down US plants. At least they only mention US plants in this.
Do they not make these cars in Japan?
Are they made differently in Japan?
Did different engineers design the ones made here?
Did they design them differently for the US?
Anyone think there is something rotten in Japan?
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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Dunno--have there been reports of the same problems in the affected models elsewhere in the world?IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17278
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Something I find unusual is they are just shutting down US plants. At least they only mention US plants in this.
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Not shutting down, halting production. Cheaper to fix it out the door. Sales stops keep customer dissatisfaction at a minimum.
Makes sense to me.
| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Do they not make these cars in Japan?
Are they made differently in Japan?
Did different engineers design the ones made here?
Did they design them differently for the US?
Anyone think there is something rotten in Japan?
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Good questions but I think the answer to all of them would be no.
| | | quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
Dunno--have there been reports of the same problems in the affected models elsewhere in the world? |
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Another good question of which I think the answer would be yes. Hard to believe such a minor fix would shut down production/sales.
IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Ok wrong choice of a word. They are not shutting the plants down. But they are stopping production.
If they don’t know what created this problem then WTF I would not want to buy one of these or any other vehicle with this problem.
Toyota or American.
Like I said we may never know the truth
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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"I think" is not an answer--it's a personal opinion.
Links? 
It doesn't affect me either way really--I hope they can never fix it and nobody ever buys another one. IP: Logged |
blackrams
Member Posts: 14884
From: Frankfort, KY, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Ok wrong choice of a word. They are not shutting the plants down. But they are stopping production.
If they don’t know what created this problem then WTF I would not want to buy one of these or any other vehicle with this problem.
Toyota or American.
Like I said we may never know the truth
Steve
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You could be right Steve, we may never know the whole truth but, Toyota is making a huge deal out of this. I'm thinking that in order to re-establish their reputation with their followers, they will be honest about their proposed fix.
IMO, they are taking such action in order to salvage their reputation on quality. Don't take this as a voucher for Toyota or any other brand but, it is good in that they are telling the consumer that they do not want products with their badges out there if they aren't safe. I'm not a Toyota owner but, if I were, this would probably help maintain any confidence I had in the vehicle and the company.
Yes, this is going to cost millions but, the continued accelerator pedal issue would haunt them for years and could cost billions of dollars in lawsuits and lost sales. This is a smart move on Toyota's part.
Where would GM and Chrysler be if they had taken such strong action concerning some of their problems? We'll never know but, I see this as a smart business move.
RonIP: Logged |
2.5
Member Posts: 10125
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007
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They just played a 911 call on the radio of a driver in a Toyota with 3 passengers, he calls 911 and says his pedal is stuck and he is approaching an intersection. The 911 operator says can you turn the ingition off? The guy then yells 3 times and the car crashes. The morning DJ says all 4 occupants died.
1st of all I can't believe they played that on the radio.
2nd, can't they turn off the ignition? Maybe brake hard then turn off the ignition?
I had a 69 impala with an intake manifold leak that caused it to rev itself up at stoplights, I used to have to shut the ignition off. I soon after fixed the leak.[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 01-27-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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New fangled pushbutton start stop thing.
You have to hold it for like 3 to 5 seconds. At 120 MPH just how far do you travel in 3 seconds?
Steve ------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
slinger
Member Posts: 1374
From: grand rapids MI
Registered: May 2006
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Meh... I drive a old chevyIP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
New fangled pushbutton start stop thing.
You have to hold it for like 3 to 5 seconds. At 120 MPH just how far do you travel in 3 seconds?
Steve
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True, but it took longer than that I imagine, (just my opinion) to call 911 and get an answer. About that again, to explain the situation to the 911 operator. IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17278
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
"I think" is not an answer--it's a personal opinion.
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Not exactly,  .
IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17278
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
True, but it took longer than that I imagine, (just my opinion) to call 911 and get an answer. About that again, to explain the situation to the 911 operator. |
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And the time for them to figure out exactly you are talking about while in your panic, added to your peril.[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 01-27-2010).] IP: Logged |
Pyrthian
Member Posts: 21247
From: Detroit, MI
Registered: Jul 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Something I find unusual is they are just shutting down US plants. At least they only mention US plants in this.
Do they not make these cars in Japan?
Are they made differently in Japan?
Did different engineers design the ones made here?
Did they design them differently for the US?
Anyone think there is something rotten in Japan?
Steve
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yes, they do
just as Euro Fords are different from US Fords
and not just on where you sit
they are also made to meet the laws of he land they are being sold in
we've all seen that we even have different cars made for CaliforniaIP: Logged |
2.5
Member Posts: 10125
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007
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Yeah, I sat in a few japanese cars, I don't even fit in many. Apparently most Japenses are not 6'2".
Had an old '77 280Z, now that I did fit in.IP: Logged |
Fiero STS
Member Posts: 1626
From: Wyoming, MN. usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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Toyota may be using the stuck cable issue to idle US plants due to reduced demand and high inventory. Looks better to the public than closing plants due to lack of demand.IP: Logged |
blackrams
Member Posts: 14884
From: Frankfort, KY, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Fiero STS:
Toyota may be using the stuck cable issue to idle US plants due to reduced demand and high inventory. Looks better to the public than closing plants due to lack of demand. |
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Hadn't thought of that but, you could be right and it would still help consumer confidence in the company as a whole for doing the right thing.
Yep, those are some smart folks at Toyota.
Ron[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-27-2010).] IP: Logged |
2.5
Member Posts: 10125
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Fiero STS:
Toyota may be using the stuck cable issue to idle US plants due to reduced demand and high inventory. Looks better to the public than closing plants due to lack of demand. |
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I was wondering what this would to to plants and dealerships too. All the workers go on unemployment?IP: Logged |
TopNotch
Member Posts: 1411
From: Lawrenceville, GA USA
Registered: Feb 2009
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My wife's Ford Escape had an accelerator sticking problem, except that it stuck up, not down. You'd push on it, and it would be stuck, so you'd push harder, and it would break loose, and the car would accelerate with a jump. The Ford dealer fixed it, and it's been fine since.
IP: Logged |
cliffw
Member Posts: 17278
From: Kerrville, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
1)Do they not make these cars in Japan?
2)Are they made differently in Japan?
3)Did different engineers design the ones made here?
4)Did they design them differently for the US?
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1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes
Based on Toyota's statement that the accelerator pedal assemblies are made by a supplier in Elkhart Indiana.
IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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GM Offers Incentives To Toyota Buyers Looking To Avoid A Fiery Death [Ad Watch]
By Matt Hardigree, 4:20 PM on Wed Jan 27, 2010
Claiming their dealers have received "thousands of calls" from Toyota customers wanting to make the switch, GM is making their Japanese competitor pay for their fiery-death recall by offering incentives to Toyota customers if they buy a GM product.
Toyota had to halt the sales of eight vehicles -- including the popular Toyota Camry and Corolla -- and recall an additional 2.3 million because of a sticky accelerator pedal.
Unwilling to pass up an opportunity to kick Toyota while they're down, GM's marketing chief Susan Docherty told Bloomberg :
"At the end of the day, safe and high-quality transportation is a reasonable request from a customer. We want to be able to provide peace of mind to customers and all of our vehicles are safe."
Yeah, like GM buyers purchasing any Pontiac Vibes left in stock that use the same CTS-supplied accelerator pedal?
According to the Detroit Free Press , current Toyota lease holders will get up to $1,000 in lease payments to terminate a Toyota lease and get a GM product, those financing qualify for 0% interest rates for 60 months, and cash buyers qualify for up to $1,000 in down-payment assistance.
We're sure it won't be long before Howie Long is doing a commercial making fun of Toyota Camry owners.
"She's a living girl, a very living little girl."
http://m.jalopnik.com/site?...1oZ8Q&sid=jalopnikip------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
|
Toyota Neglects To Mention Sale Of Vehicles Halted Because Feds Forced Them [Toyota Recall]
By Matt Hardigree, 11:45 AM on Wed Jan 27, 2010
Yesterday, Toyota announced they'd stop selling eight vehicles with sudden-fiery-death-accelerator-pedals . What they failed to mention was this is something they were legally forced to do.
According to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration administrator David Strickland, in an interview with The Detroit News , the move was a legal obligation and "We informed them of the obligations, and they complied."
Toyota neglected to mention this in their initial press release announcing the decision. We're guessing this is because no one wants to admit the government made them stop selling the cars over safety concerns.
What remains unclear is why Toyota continued to sell the cars after the recall, if the government stepped in to make it happen, or how Toyota's dealer network is going to react to the way this was handled.
[ The Detroit News</a
http://m.jalopnik.com/site?...00unw&sid=jalopnikip------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
|
Just found this news bite
No easy answer to why Toyota accelerators stick
Email this Story
Jan 27, 6:02 PM (ET)
By SETH BORENSTEIN and KEN THOMAS
P { MARGIN: 12px 0px 0px }
WASHINGTON (AP) - For a century, the basic idea behind pressing the accelerator on a car has been pretty straightforward. What's going wrong with some Toyotas isn't simple.
Experts say the sudden acceleration problem that has put the brakes on Toyota sales and production is likely not a single problem but an alignment of complicated interconnected conditions.
Nothing illustrates that more than the contradictory statements from the two companies involved. Toyota Motor Corp. is telling the government that it thinks a friction problem in its accelerator pedal mechanisms may make the pedal "harder to depress, slower to return, or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position."
CTS Corp., the Elkhart, Ind., supplier that makes the devices for Toyota, said in a statement Wednesday that the friction problem accounts for fewer than a dozen cases of stuck accelerators, "and in no instance did the accelerator actually become stuck in a partially depressed condition."
If there were a simple answer, a one-thing gone wrong glitch with a fix, it's unlikely Toyota would be in the mess it's now in.
When Toyota recalled 4.2 million vehicles last fall, it said it was because floor mats were interfering with the pedals. That may have been an issue, but now the company is saying it's latest recall of 2.3 million vehicles is linked to worn pedal mechanisms that increase friction in certain conditions and cause the accelerator to stick sometimes.
Outside safety experts say possible causes also include the complicated electronic sensors that relay the message from the gas pedal to the engine, the design and location of the sensor system, a lack of a fail-safe override mechanism, and even a certain media-fed awareness that puts more people on the lookout for the problem.
Academic researchers say the rarity of sudden acceleration problems is a telling sign to the difficulty of determining what's going wrong.
"This is very unusual and happens on a very rare circumstance, and a whole bunch of things have to happen simultaneously," said Raj Rajkumar, head of Carnegie Mellon University's automotive research lab. It's like lots of unlikely lottery hits happening at the same time, but with millions of Toyotas, they do happen.
Sean Kane, president of Safety Research and Strategies Inc., a Massachusetts-based car safety investigation and advocacy group, said he's certain there is no single cause. He said he's logged thousands of stuck gas pedal complaints.
"We are convinced that this a multifaceted problem," Kane said. "You've got a multitude of problems that are coming to the surface that result in one thing: unintended acceleration."
How an accelerator pedal is supposed to operate is anything but complicated. Stepping on the pedal starts a chain of events to open the throttle, sending more air into the engine. The car goes faster. Stop pressing on the gas, the engine's speed decreases and the car slows down.
At first, the pedal was directly linked to the throttle, or hydraulics did the job. Then more than a decade ago, electronics started handling the relay. It's part of an overall switch to computer controls seen throughout the transportation industry.
Most throttle systems on modern vehicles are electronic. Typically, the driver steps on the accelerator and gets resistance back from a spring. The movement activates components in the pedal assembly that send an electronic signal to the engine-control computer, and a signal from the computer feeds more fuel to the engine.
In documents provided to the government, Toyota indicated the mechanical problem that causes the pedal to stick occurs when water condenses inside the system when the heater is on. The company also thought a material used to make the pedal system was a problem, so it switched to a different material, but the problem persisted.
Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said Wednesday that the company wouldn't discuss the mechanics of the pedal and the possible causes of the problem "because the engineering investigation is ongoing."
Craig Hoff, a professor of mechanical engineering at Kettering University in Flint, Mich., said the pedal assemblies typically contain a Teflon bearing that would not be affected by temperature, so it's unlikely the problem is connected to weather conditions. He has not specifically studied the Toyota case but said the problem could be linked to the mechanical spring that pushes back when someone hits the accelerator.
"If I was going to sit here and guess, I'd start thinking about something is binding - either there's friction that's too high somewhere or another issue is that spring is not strong enough to push back," said Hoff, who has worked on accelerator systems.
The problem could also be connected to the electronics relay system - something Toyota highlighted in a video more than a dozen years ago touting its "electronic throttle control system with intelligence."
A few years ago, the company sent out a technical bulletin saying some cars accelerate on their own between 38 and 42 mph, and it reprogrammed the electronics with new software codes, Kane said.
John Heywood, director of the Sloan Automotive Lab at MIT, said because Toyota is the only automaker having this problem, it could be something specific to its design, such as the location and integration of the electronics relay sensor.
"These are very complex systems," Rajkumar said. "One ought to expect that there will be glitches like these."
CTS, which relies on Toyota for 3 percent of its annual sales, supplies similar parts for Honda Motor Co., Nissan Motor Co. and Mitsubishi Motors Corp.
But auto suppliers typically design parts based on the specifications of the individual automaker, and a part's installation and operation can vary based on the vehicle. The three other automakers said they had received no complaints about their accelerator pedals.
A key problem appears to be the absence of a mechanism that overrides the accelerator if the gas and brake pedals are pressed at the same time, Kane said. In the recall last year involving floor mats, Toyota told the government it would retrofit some vehicles with that feature.
Such a mechanism, called a "brake-to-idle algorithm," is an important fail-safe, Kane said. He said some other automakers already have them, and Rajkumar said more will install them in the future.
In the late 1980s, the government investigated complaints that Audi 5000 vehicles would suddenly accelerate when the vehicle shifted from park to drive or reverse. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that most of the incidents were caused by drivers putting their feet on the wrong pedals.
But the safety agency found that vehicle recalls were necessary for the safety of the Audi 5000, whose sales plummeted after a major 1986 recall. Audi modified the accelerator and brake pedals, installed systems that prevent shifting from park unless the brake is pressed, and corrected idle speed control systems to address the problem.
Heywood, who isn't familiar with the specifics of Toyota's situation but has studied sudden acceleration problems in other cars and was part of a panel looking into the Audi problem, said media attention caused more people to be aware of the Audi problem, and then more people reported it.
---
Associated Press Writers Stephen Manning in Washington and Dan Strumpf
http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00127/D9DGCBUO1.html
------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
KurtAKX
Member Posts: 2613
From: Allendale, Michigan
Registered: Feb 2002
|
| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Just found this news bite
No easy answer to why Toyota accelerators stick
Email this Story
Jan 27, 6:02 PM (ET)
By SETH BORENSTEIN and KEN THOMAS
P { MARGIN: 12px 0px 0px }
WASHINGTON (AP) - For a century, the basic idea behind pressing the accelerator on a car has been pretty straightforward. What's going wrong with some Toyotas isn't simple.
Experts say the sudden acceleration problem that has put the brakes on Toyota sales and production is likely not a single problem but an alignment of complicated interconnected conditions.
Nothing illustrates that more than the contradictory statements from the two companies involved. Toyota Motor Corp. is telling the government that it thinks a friction problem in its accelerator pedal mechanisms may make the pedal "harder to depress, slower to return, or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position."
CTS Corp., the Elkhart, Ind., supplier that makes the devices for Toyota, said in a statement Wednesday that the friction problem accounts for fewer than a dozen cases of stuck accelerators, "and in no instance did the accelerator actually become stuck in a partially depressed condition."
If there were a simple answer, a one-thing gone wrong glitch with a fix, it's unlikely Toyota would be in the mess it's now in.
When Toyota recalled 4.2 million vehicles last fall, it said it was because floor mats were interfering with the pedals. That may have been an issue, but now the company is saying it's latest recall of 2.3 million vehicles is linked to worn pedal mechanisms that increase friction in certain conditions and cause the accelerator to stick sometimes.
Outside safety experts say possible causes also include the complicated electronic sensors that relay the message from the gas pedal to the engine, the design and location of the sensor system, a lack of a fail-safe override mechanism, and even a certain media-fed awareness that puts more people on the lookout for the problem.
Academic researchers say the rarity of sudden acceleration problems is a telling sign to the difficulty of determining what's going wrong.
"This is very unusual and happens on a very rare circumstance, and a whole bunch of things have to happen simultaneously," said Raj Rajkumar, head of Carnegie Mellon University's automotive research lab. It's like lots of unlikely lottery hits happening at the same time, but with millions of Toyotas, they do happen.
Sean Kane, president of Safety Research and Strategies Inc., a Massachusetts-based car safety investigation and advocacy group, said he's certain there is no single cause. He said he's logged thousands of stuck gas pedal complaints.
"We are convinced that this a multifaceted problem," Kane said. "You've got a multitude of problems that are coming to the surface that result in one thing: unintended acceleration."
How an accelerator pedal is supposed to operate is anything but complicated. Stepping on the pedal starts a chain of events to open the throttle, sending more air into the engine. The car goes faster. Stop pressing on the gas, the engine's speed decreases and the car slows down.
At first, the pedal was directly linked to the throttle, or hydraulics did the job. Then more than a decade ago, electronics started handling the relay. It's part of an overall switch to computer controls seen throughout the transportation industry.
Most throttle systems on modern vehicles are electronic. Typically, the driver steps on the accelerator and gets resistance back from a spring. The movement activates components in the pedal assembly that send an electronic signal to the engine-control computer, and a signal from the computer feeds more fuel to the engine.
In documents provided to the government, Toyota indicated the mechanical problem that causes the pedal to stick occurs when water condenses inside the system when the heater is on. The company also thought a material used to make the pedal system was a problem, so it switched to a different material, but the problem persisted.
Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said Wednesday that the company wouldn't discuss the mechanics of the pedal and the possible causes of the problem "because the engineering investigation is ongoing."
Craig Hoff, a professor of mechanical engineering at Kettering University in Flint, Mich., said the pedal assemblies typically contain a Teflon bearing that would not be affected by temperature, so it's unlikely the problem is connected to weather conditions. He has not specifically studied the Toyota case but said the problem could be linked to the mechanical spring that pushes back when someone hits the accelerator.
"If I was going to sit here and guess, I'd start thinking about something is binding - either there's friction that's too high somewhere or another issue is that spring is not strong enough to push back," said Hoff, who has worked on accelerator systems.
The problem could also be connected to the electronics relay system - something Toyota highlighted in a video more than a dozen years ago touting its "electronic throttle control system with intelligence."
A few years ago, the company sent out a technical bulletin saying some cars accelerate on their own between 38 and 42 mph, and it reprogrammed the electronics with new software codes, Kane said.
John Heywood, director of the Sloan Automotive Lab at MIT, said because Toyota is the only automaker having this problem, it could be something specific to its design, such as the location and integration of the electronics relay sensor.
"These are very complex systems," Rajkumar said. "One ought to expect that there will be glitches like these."
CTS, which relies on Toyota for 3 percent of its annual sales, supplies similar parts for Honda Motor Co., Nissan Motor Co. and Mitsubishi Motors Corp.
But auto suppliers typically design parts based on the specifications of the individual automaker, and a part's installation and operation can vary based on the vehicle. The three other automakers said they had received no complaints about their accelerator pedals.
A key problem appears to be the absence of a mechanism that overrides the accelerator if the gas and brake pedals are pressed at the same time, Kane said. In the recall last year involving floor mats, Toyota told the government it would retrofit some vehicles with that feature.
Such a mechanism, called a "brake-to-idle algorithm," is an important fail-safe, Kane said. He said some other automakers already have them, and Rajkumar said more will install them in the future.
In the late 1980s, the government investigated complaints that Audi 5000 vehicles would suddenly accelerate when the vehicle shifted from park to drive or reverse. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that most of the incidents were caused by drivers putting their feet on the wrong pedals.
But the safety agency found that vehicle recalls were necessary for the safety of the Audi 5000, whose sales plummeted after a major 1986 recall. Audi modified the accelerator and brake pedals, installed systems that prevent shifting from park unless the brake is pressed, and corrected idle speed control systems to address the problem.
Heywood, who isn't familiar with the specifics of Toyota's situation but has studied sudden acceleration problems in other cars and was part of a panel looking into the Audi problem, said media attention caused more people to be aware of the Audi problem, and then more people reported it.
---
Associated Press Writers Stephen Manning in Washington and Dan Strumpf
http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00127/D9DGCBUO1.html
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Worst article ever.
Most of their "expert input" comes from people offering useless speculation, who are unrelated to the problem, like Raj Rajkumar, Craig Hoff and John Heywood. I had Hoff in school (he was a great prof. but obviously is not informed on this specific issue), and they specifically say Heywood does not have any involvement with Toyota or the supplier. I own Heywood's (useless) book, btw. I shouldn't call it useless, it takes up space on the bookshelf so that worthwhile texts don't have room to tip over.IP: Logged |
htexans1
Member Posts: 4478
From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX
Registered: Sep 2001
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
GM Offers Incentives To Toyota Buyers Looking To Avoid A Fiery Death [Ad Watch]
By Matt Hardigree, 4:20 PM on Wed Jan 27, 2010
Claiming their dealers have received "thousands of calls" from Toyota customers wanting to make the switch, GM is making their Japanese competitor pay for their fiery-death recall by offering incentives to Toyota customers if they buy a GM product.
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I am sorry but I will never buy another GM product (My '10 Camaro was bought before Gov't takeover of GM) while the Obama regime has their paws in GM. I do my own repairs on the car, and will continue to do so.
As for "toyota reliability" their reputation has taken no hit as far as I am concerned.
To bad I cannot say that for GM.[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 01-28-2010).] IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by KurtAKX:
Worst article ever.
Most of their "expert input" comes from people offering useless speculation, who are unrelated to the problem, like Raj Rajkumar, Craig Hoff and John Heywood. I had Hoff in school (he was a great prof. but obviously is not informed on this specific issue), and they specifically say Heywood does not have any involvement with Toyota or the supplier. I own Heywood's (useless) book, btw. I shouldn't call it useless, it takes up space on the bookshelf so that worthwhile texts don't have room to tip over. |
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and you do know more?------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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Well so much for it just being American cars.
Toyota extends vehicle recall to Chinaan 28, 7:43 AM (ET)
P { MARGIN: 12px 0px 0px }
TOKYO (AP) - Toyota says it is recalling 75,500 vehicles in China for the same gas pedal problem behind the U.S. and European recalls.
Toyota Motor Corp. has Thursday informed Chinese authorities it will start a recall in February for RAV4 sport utility vehicles that were manufactured in China between March 2009 and January 2010, says spokeswoman Ririko Takeuchi.
They use the same problem parts in accelerators that caused the recent spate of massive recalls in the U.S.
Toyota said earlier Thursday it will also recall vehicles in Europe, although it has not said the number of vehicles involved.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
TOKYO (AP) - Toyota's massive recalls over problem gas pedals in the U.S. are being extended to Europe, the latest blow to the world's top automaker as it struggles to salvage its safety reputation.
The announcement Thursday in Europe comes after the company earlier this week said it was suspending U.S. sales of eight models - including the Camry, America's top-selling car - to fix faulty gas pedals that could stick and cause acceleration without warning.
The scale of recalls over problems with sticking gas pedals and floor mats that can trap the accelerator have rapidly snowballed. On Thursday, Toyota announced an additional recall of 1.09 million vehicles in the United States covering five models - 2008-2010 Highlander, 2009-2010 Corolla, 2009-2010 Venza, 2009-2010 Matrix, and 2009-2010 Pontiac Vibe.
A week before the U.S. sales suspension, Toyota issued a recall for the same eight models, affecting 2.3 million vehicles.
Those steps came on top of a recall in late 2009 involving 4.2 million vehicles amid concerns that floor mats could bend across gas pedals, causing sudden acceleration.
In Europe, Toyota is still unsure how many vehicles are affected.
Colin Hensley, a manager at the car maker's European operations, said the company is checking how many European models use the parts involved in the latest U.S. recall.
The automaker said it would communicate with European owners of vehicles that are affected by the problem of sticking pedals. "Toyota is making every effort to address this situation for our customers as quickly as possible," it said.
The problem is rare, Toyota said, and customers who are concerned should contact customer service for help before recall instructions are issued.
The sales suspension in the U.S. - Toyota's biggest market - could endanger the company's fledgling earnings recovery. Toyota only returned to the black for the July-September quarter with net income of 21.8 billion yen ($241 million) after three straight losing quarters.
Investors continued to dump shares in the global auto giant Thursday. Toyota dropped 3.9 percent to 3,560 yen even as the benchmark Nikkei 225 stock average gained 1.6 percent to close at 10,414.29. Toyota tumbled 4.3 percent Wednesday.
"It is still uncertain how this recall problem will affect Toyota's profits. But investors are worried it could really pressure the company's overall earnings," said Masatoshi Sato, market analyst at Mizuho Investors Securities Co. Ltd.
Fitch Ratings warned Thursday the massive recalls and sales suspension could dent Toyota's recovery, especially in the vital U.S. market.
Fitch placed Toyota's credit rating of 'A+' on watch negative, meaning the rating could be downgraded. That could increase the interest rate Toyota pays on any debt.
"The recalls and sales and production suspension cast a negative light on Toyota's reputation for quality, just as the company emerges from an unprecedented downturn in the auto industry," Fitch said in a statement.
Toyota spokesman Hideaki Homma said Toyota decided to recall more vehicles in the U.S. due to the risk of accelerator pedals becoming stuck in floor mats.
Toyota said in a statement it will fix or replace the accelerator pedals for the recalled vehicles to avoid the risk of floor mat entrapment. The company said it will replace floor mats as well for the latest recalled vehicles.
In March of 2007, Toyota started getting reports of gas pedals being slow to rise after being depressed for acceleration. Engineers fixed the problem in the Tundra pickup early in 2008.
But troubles persisted in other models, eventually leading to last week's U.S. recall and the plans to suspend sales and shut down of six factories while Toyota tries to fix the problems.
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http://apnews.excite.com/ar...00128/D9DGOD0G0.html
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
2.5
Member Posts: 10125
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007
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| | | quote | At first, the pedal was directly linked to the throttle, or hydraulics did the job. Then more than a decade ago, electronics started handling the relay. It's part of an overall switch to computer controls seen throughout the transportation industry.
Most throttle systems on modern vehicles are electronic. Typically, the driver steps on the accelerator and gets resistance back from a spring. The movement activates components in the pedal assembly that send an electronic signal to the engine-control computer, and a signal from the computer feeds more fuel to the engine. |
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Solution, drive old cars
Seriously though, "new" tech, give it a few years for they to iron out the wrinkles if you are compelled to buy a new car.IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by htexans1:
I am sorry but I will never buy another GM product (My '10 Camaro was bought before Gov't takeover of GM) while the Obama regime has their paws in GM. I do my own repairs on the car, and will continue to do so.
As for "toyota reliability" their reputation has taken no hit as far as I am concerned.
To bad I cannot say that for GM.
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Just what would it take?
You getting one of those cars and having it take off on you?
No disrespect intended but really what would it take?
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 2.5:
Solution, drive old cars
Seriously though, "new" tech, give it a few years for they to iron out the wrinkles if you are compelled to buy a new car. |
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Just how long do they have to make something before it is safe.
From what others here have said this drive by wire has been in planes for years before cars.
So when is new technology not new and reliable?
Steve
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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4043
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Maybe... the manufacturer you're thinking of is Audi... that was during the late 80s.
That said, there was very recently a person who owned a Lexus LX-460 that had the gas pedal stuck and speed up over 120mph before it flipped. They called 911 and were on the phone the entire time (it was unrelated to the floor mat).
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It's been like that for a long time.
I'm going to hazard a guess (love saying that) and say that I think the American reliability hit hard when President Nixon forced the emissions legislation prematurely on the auto industry. GM, Chrysler, AMC, and Ford were forced to implement massive emissions control devices to their cars (along with numerous regulations) which seriously affected both the performance and reliability of the vehicles. Fuel economy went down, efficiency went down, it wasn't good for anyone. Smog pumps were crap because those old charcoal pellet cats didn't function anywhere near as efficiently as the ceramic cats we've been using for 25+ years. Not to mention that that technology did already exist in the beginning anyway.
I really think that having crammed that stuff down the industry's throats (which largely left the import companies unaffected) hurt the American auto industry. People started flocking to Japanese cars in the early to mid 80s. It was bad...
It pretty much created a nearly 2-decade long ideology that:
- If a Japanese car breaks down, it's a factory fluke, if an American car breaks down, it's expected because it's American.
That HAS changed, and this rash of recalls from Toyota, and the drastically improved reliability from Ford has begun to change the opinion of consumers. You still have those kinds of people who have the "team" mentality. There's usually no real logic that goes into it. I think maybe in this thread or another thread, someone tracked down the source of the accelerator pedal to a Canadian and American company and then somehow deduced that it's NO LONGER Toyota's fault, or the fault of the Japanese's "superior" culture because the accelerator pedal was not made by asians. Ridiculous mentality... but never the less, you will always have some people that cling to ideals like this for no logical reason.
Ford motor company has made great strides, and it's quickly shooting up the ranks to become America's largest vehicle supplier. I'm thrilled... honestly, I really am. I'll try to save 84-Steve's health by not mentioning my views on GM. But while I think GM and Chrysler have some heavy baggage they need to unload... Ford is definitely on the way up, and Toyota is on the way down.
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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
kwagner
Member Posts: 2582
From: Beaver Falls, PA
Registered: Apr 2005
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New applications of existing technologies sometimes bring about unforeseen complications. Why do the pedals stick? I don't know. If I did, I'd expect to get a call and a hefty sum from Toyota Fly/drive by wire just makes me feel uneasy. I need a direct response.
Edit: I wonder how much of a deal this would be if it wasn't 8 vehicles affected. If only, say, one was affected. But because they standardized their fleet on one type of control mechanism (or so it seems), in order to simplify and reduce costs, it now looks to the public like 'every toyota is a deathtrap' instead of 'camrys are deathtraps' or whatever.[This message has been edited by kwagner (edited 01-28-2010).] IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4043
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by kwagner:
New applications of existing technologies sometimes bring about unforeseen complications. Why do the pedals stick? I don't know. If I did, I'd expect to get a call and a hefty sum from Toyota Fly/drive by wire just makes me feel uneasy. I need a direct response. |
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I've never, EVER liked drive by wire. I bought an 06 Pontiac Solstice back in December 05. I had it until just last year when I traded it for something that I could own outright (still owed like $6,700 on the car). There was a lack associated with the DBW. Although I've been told a reflash could eliminate about 80% of that lag, I still didn't like the fact that I couldn't have complete control.
As a programmer, I KNOW that errors are inevitable... it's impossible to have a fail-safe or a catch for everything. I'm sure the developer put a TRY / CATCH in the code with the exception being close throttle, but I have personally experienced a 1/2 throttle on my Solstice when my foot was OFF the pedal. That scared me...
As soon as I applied the brakes though, the throttle closed...------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
maryjane
Member Posts: 29885
From: Cleveland Tex
Registered: Apr 2001
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Looks like everyone suspects the pedal itself--made by CTS. Ford stops producion in China on vehicles usinf the same set up.
http://www.bloomberg.com/ap...d=auA1xc4.7tmA&pos=7IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I've never, EVER liked drive by wire. I bought an 06 Pontiac Solstice back in December 05. I had it until just last year when I traded it for something that I could own outright (still owed like $6,700 on the car). There was a lack associated with the DBW. Although I've been told a reflash could eliminate about 80% of that lag, I still didn't like the fact that I couldn't have complete control.
As a programmer, I KNOW that errors are inevitable... it's impossible to have a fail-safe or a catch for everything. I'm sure the developer put a TRY / CATCH in the code with the exception being close throttle, but I have personally experienced a 1/2 throttle on my Solstice when my foot was OFF the pedal. That scared me...
As soon as I applied the brakes though, the throttle closed...
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I forgot where I read it but the American cars have a failsafe for just this situation.
When the brake and gas are pushed at the same time the car stops.
Steve IP: Logged |
82-T/A [At Work]
Member Posts: 4043
From: Cooper City, Florida USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I forgot where I read it but the American cars have a failsafe for just this situation.
When the brake and gas are pushed at the same time the car stops.
Steve |
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I guess this would be for cars with DBW?
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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter IP: Logged |
84fiero123
Member Posts: 8354
From: farmington, maine usa
Registered: Oct 2004
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I guess this would be for cars with DBW?
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DBW?------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys. IP: Logged |
loafer87gt
Member Posts: 3968
From: Canada
Registered: Aug 99
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 2.5:
They just played a 911 call on the radio of a driver in a Toyota with 3 passengers, he calls 911 and says his pedal is stuck and he is approaching an intersection. The 911 operator says can you turn the ingition off? The guy then yells 3 times and the car crashes. The morning DJ says all 4 occupants died.
1st of all I can't believe they played that on the radio.
2nd, can't they turn off the ignition? Maybe brake hard then turn off the ignition?
I had a 69 impala with an intake manifold leak that caused it to rev itself up at stoplights, I used to have to shut the ignition off. I soon after fixed the leak.
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LOL - this is just darwinism in action. Rather than being a complete idiot and calling 911, why didn't he just shift the car into neutral or turn off the car? Does the stuck accelerator pedal also lock out the transmission? I would think not...
IP: Logged |
loafer87gt
Member Posts: 3968
From: Canada
Registered: Aug 99
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The problematic pedals plaguing Toyota were made at CTS's plant in Ontario, Canada. They have admitted fault, and are ramping up production to produce the redesigned replacement pedals.
http://www.theglobeandmail....ight/article1446670/[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 01-28-2010).] IP: Logged | |
