Ok I was just wondering because I have a phone and network jack in my bathroom myself. As far as flamewars go I see just about the same number in GFC as I do in T/OT. Trust me I see them all :/ T/OT just seems to be the bastard child of the forum by virtue of not being Fiero related and allows ppl to post whatever they want. Not everyone is a Fiero expert and not everyone has something Fiero related to post. However most everyone here has, has had or is thinking of getting a fiero. Yeah it gets much more attention then the other forums but there is life beyond fieros and T/OT is where it happens and is talked about. Trouble makers know no boundries and they flame away in any forum they can get a reaction out of BUT its funny when you think about it, its the "members" that fan the flames not the the problem child
Look at this thread and tell me what you see. A new member MR2NER the very first post look what he wrote.. his second post isnt much better.. Funny he got no reaction this is in T/OT right? So it boils down to MEMBER reaction and not the always bonghole that starts it. T/OT is not any different than any of the other forums.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 01-21-2002).]
I haven't posted in a while, but I just wanted you to know that I personally enjoy this forum and have learned alot from it. I would hate to see it ended. Fiero people are one of the most tightly knit groups I have ever had the pleasure of being a part of.
------------------ Matt Harkness 85 Sport Coupe(GT project)
I've been a long-time member of another online forum ( Ars Technica, a computer-oriented forum ) almost from its inception in 1999. They started out small, just like any other online forum, and grew in size over the years. At one point (I think about the same number of users as we have in PFF now), the owner finally had to give in and appoint moderators to handle the workload. Just like you, he got to the point where he was about to start ripping out his hair and chewing all his fingernails into bloody stumps.
Now they have over 20 sub-forums with 2 moderators in each. They also have (last time I checked) about 30,000 registered users. The Ars Technica forum is just as sane and comfy as it was 2 years ago.
Yes, they ban people. Yes, they suspend people's user accounts. And yes, they will happily lock a thread that is getting out of control. BUT the owner of the forum, in his wisdom, chose to appoint fair and honest people to the position of moderator.
Why am I pointing this out? Well, if you want PFF to be as successful as Ars Technica (you do, right? ), then you have to resign yourself to fact that eventually you will need to implement some of the measures that they had to implement. This eventuality is as sure as death and taxes.
But the big difference lies in WHO you appoint to moderator, and the atmosphere you want them to maintain. Just like the old axiom "lead by example" says, fair and level-headed moderators will set an example for the rest of us. It's true that not all of us will follow their example all the time, but it sure beats total chaos.
Originally posted by 84Bill: ... but there is life beyond fieros....
No way! I know this. I have discussed telescopes and astronomy with Cliff and Jeff Socha, photography with various members, and other fun stuff, too. Despite my joke, I use O/T as well to talk about stuff with other Fieroites.
... it's funny when you think about it, its the "members" that fan the flames not the the problem child... thread ...tell me what you see... it boils down to MEMBER reaction....
If you look toward the end of page one, you'll see that I was involved in that flame war. I never denied involvement:
Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: I know that I've posted some things that I expected to be called on....
Check out the other posters and their posts. I think it's four or five against one. My issue, which I believe legitimate, is with the lack of tolerance of Americans for those of faith, a growing epidemic in this country. As with the antagonistic poster (he need not be named), he had no qualms with twisting facts to suit his ends, which is typical of his ilk. You can only light so many coals beneath my tush before I get hot under the collar.
To wit, I have said many times, including above, that Cliff's patience (even with me) exceeded my own capabilities. I can only encourage that, because I love this forum so much, but Cliff has the right to close this forum, just as he can close his house to a party.
I didn't mean to seriously dis O/T, but it's an easy target. The fact that I post there often enough means that I dissed myself, too. All in good fun.
You keep it open for members like the guy who was broken down in the desert, for the the guys that come on about all the problems they are having with their cars and say they are getting rid of them , but get good advise and decide to keep them and for people like me that learned alot about of info to make my Fiero much more fun.
When the form gets negitive, remember the good advice and fun that is here and feel good about it.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: ...But the problem is that my rants are taken much more seriously - especially when I post them in the "Announcement" section...
You say that like it's a bad thing. This is your Forum, after all. When you speak, people listen (or at least ought to.) Aside from that, you really don't post all that much. We like it when you drop in.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: [B]Please, somebody remind me again why I keep the forum up and running? ------------------------------------------ Cliff, don't let the rotten apples get to you. Do remember that they are human and they are probably the same ones that screw up in the outside world. So don't let the bad apples mess up the fun from folks who are looking for real answers for honest problems. I usually don't write cause I don't mess to much with my GT but when I do need help this is the place for me to get a quick answer without talking to mechanics or someone who have NO knowledge of FIEROS.
Last night I lifted my cradle impaired '87 Fiero up by the holes in the trunk brace so that I could put a dolly under it and move it deeper in my shop (need to make room for my '86 GT that's getting a new transmission). I picked up that tip here on the Forum. You have given me life after my wife died. Since I joined the Forum I've bought four Fieros. I feel confident that I can repair them. Before then, they were just another good looking car that had been abandoned by the factory. I never go into the O/T nor feel the need to argue. My post number is small but I sure am learning about Fieros. If this Forum was shut down, so many projects would come to a halt. I need it. I'm addicted. I want to see how Artherd's N* dream car comes out.
Usually, about three times a day, I want to quit teaching ninth graders science. Dealing with people is tough. That's we have the biggest brain to body mass. Perhaps if you can work out a way to share the administrative load, you will enjoy this incredible forum more. PFF a great gift to the Fiero community. If you shut it down, the good folks would suffer mightily.
There have been many good points brought up in this thread. The last one by Westtexas is the one that inspired me to put in my two pennies worth.
This place has helped me beyond compare many times. You have done what the leaders of nations have not been able to do. You bring people from all over the world together in one place and help them help each other. All for the sake of an automobile that without this place would have gone the way of the dinosour. Not to say that this place is the be all and end all of the Fiero world, but it does seem to represent the center of the "hardcore" Fiero fans.
You give us a place for information and experience sharing, that otherwise would not exist. There have been new friendships forged here that otherwise wouldn't be. Countless cars have been saved from the crusher because of this place. You give people like Archie and Pat a new place to show their stuff, and offer new products to the Fiero community in general. This is a rallying center and we sure need all of that we can get these days!
I'm sure there are many Fiero owners out there, that have never heard of this place, but sooner or later, they will vist, if not be here on a regular basis. For those that don't even own a computer, or want to, they will have a friend who has a friend who knows this "online site" that could provide the answer they need. With it, we have the option of brainstorming any situation on a global level. Without it, we are left to our personal experience and/or the mercy of local shop mechanics.
The trouble makers are generally very young inexperienced loud mouths, who just don't understand yet, or grumpy old opinionated farts, that have to have the last word on everything, both of which can be overlooked by the group in general, you know, like the tv: if you don't like what's on, change the channel. Some just like seeing their words in print, some disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. All have the luxery of anonymity afforded by the internet.
Where you have this many people together in one place, you are going to have opposing views, just goes with the territory, but one way or the another, the waves calm soon enough for most of us to enjoy the ride.
To know that someone who has lost their life partner comes here for solace and comfort as well as information, should be enough in itself to keep it going.
I could go on, but there's no need. I haven't said anything that you didn't already know. Could have summed up my feelings in much shorter fasion by just stating:
Good show, keep up the good work! (That's still my favorite smiley!)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Just so everybody knows, I will not shut down the forum. I sometimes (fortunately very rarely) get a little frustrated and vent a bit. The (work-) load is heavy, but one I happily bear.
Frustrated: Just count backwards from 10. Then just make sure you hide the body of the person you just strangled.
If you don't know how to kill somebody without leaving evidence that ends up not pointing at you, join an OJ Simpson class.
(work-) load is heavy: If you don't know how to effectively lift and subsequently hide a body, I believe one of our Senators/Congressman can help you there as they still haven't found the body of a gal he was with. I believe OJ might have just got done with that course...as now there is questions as to the where-abouts of one of OJ's exgirlfriends.
SEE! I've not only learned about Fieros but at the same time, if we didn't have OT, we would never know about this other great stuff!
But sometimes, fortunately not that often, somebody attacks my integrity, and that's something I'll always react very strongly to.
They'd better not do it within earshot of me, because I'll rip them a new one before they even knew I was there. Abuse is *never* something you should have to put up with becasue of things that happen here - that is completely unacceptable.
Cliff, if this forum wasn't here, it would have cost me *thousands* of dollars in car repairs - hell, in clutch repairs alone. It is directly because of this forum and the information and people on it that new life has been breathed into my enthusiasm for Fieros. And if my enthusiasm for the car had waned, then it would not have been able to grow to include my father and my best friend into it as well. It also would not have grown to include the three trophies I have sitting on my shelf. And it also would not have grown to make me feel as though I have 4000 of the best Fiero friends anyone could ask for. No, everyone doesn't always see eye-to-eye, but hell, who does?
I've owned Fieros for going on twelve years now, and after finding this place - this "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" of the Fiero world - I can't envision true Fiero enthusiasm without it being a part of that.
It's been said many times before, and hopefully it will be said many times to come, but even more hopefully the meaning behind the words will never fade - thank you, Cliff. Thanks for giving all of us Fiero nuts a home.
------------------ Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com 1988 Red Fiero Formula - 1st Place - Stock Coupe - FOCOSEVA 2000 - 3rd Place - Stock Formula - FOCOA Nat'l 2001 - Class Winner - 1982 to Present - Tarheel Tigers All-Pontiac Show 2001
An old man, a boy and a donkey were going to town. The boy rode on the donkey and the old man walked. As they went along they passed some people who remarked it was a shame the old man was walking and the boy was riding. The man and boy thought maybe the critics were right, so they changed positions. Later, they passed some people that remarked, "What a shame, he makes that little boy walk." They then decided they both would walk! Soon they passed some more people who thought they were stupid to walk when they had a decent donkey to ride. So, they both rode the donkey. Now they passed some people that shamed them by saying how awful to put such a load on a poor donkey. The boy and man said they were probably right, so they decided to carry the donkey. As they crossed the bridge, they lost their grip on the animal and he fell into the river and drowned. The moral of the story?
If you try to please everyone, you might as well kiss your ass good-bye
I've been a Fiero fan since before I even found this forum. But since becoming an active member, or at least as active as I can be, I've met some really kool guys on here. In fact some of you have seen my thread on the Texas Get Together. I was amazed by the intrest and response to that thread. If it wasn't for this forum I'd never get the oppertunity to meet anyone from my new "Family". I bought an 87 Fiero from Gold-86SE, who I met here. We've been a help to each other on some things and he's helping me with the get together also.
My point is this. When you get the good people on this forum together, it really is a family. They're quicker to help eachother out because of a common intrest. We all LOVE the Fiero. Some of us are quick to anger, others just glance by threads or comments, and some of us just want to be apart of this great family so we try to be more active. At least I do I'm very greatful to Cliff for having this forum available to us. I don't have enough time to try to find information somewhere else and here all I have to do is ask.
I appreciate (almost ) everyone on this forum and I like being able to help anytime I can.
Man I love this place !!! I don't know what I would do without it, you guys are all I have !!! Don't know anyone close to me with a Fiero in fact I personally don't know anyone else with a Fiero, and there are no clubs close by. I have had positive, helpful answers to every question I have asked well once I can get everyone to understand what I am trying to ask....I'm a little confusing at times I know, I've tried talking to myself before Anyway Cliff you have a great professional service with the forum do what ever you must to reduce the problems but please do not ever shut it down !!!! I promise to be good !!!!!
Boy Cliff, do I EVER know how you feel about running the Forum. On a smaller scale, I was a moderator on a small BBS, and the people really seemed to be self destructive sometimes. It made my job much harder when they felt this way, but it was't too bad when they could behave like humans.
I dont want to add to your headachs of programing, but doesnt this go back to the "Rating" system you posted about before? Granted it would be a while before you could get one started, and it would be a bit of a PITA to put it together (I have faith in you! )but in the long run, wouldnt it take some stress off you?
Another unrelated, or maybe it is a related thing, if you chose to use any sort of 3rd party moderators could I suggest using the people you used to test... the ones you named in the "something new" post? I have no relationship to them, they more than likely dont know i exist, but from reading the post of say, 84bill, I can tell he has a sence of humor, and has a feel for what you are looking for as an end result here on the forum.
Well, Cliff, if your reading this far into my post, I know my spelling mistakes are minimal and maybe my thoughts can somehow aid you in aiding us to use this forum more effectivly.
On a brighter note, my 84' is running great, posted about it in the gen. chat. im off to look at whats there.
I can understand your feelings and I strongly agree with you in concept. But I think because of the type of forum that exist, we will always get assholes who don't really know what they are talking about or what to say. I wish there was some what to keep them out of the public light, but unfornutaly there isn't. After all, "we may not agree with what is said, but we must define their right to say it". Keep up the good work. Your doing a great job. Just do the best you can and ignore the idiots and assholes. It's not really worth the time to express anger or ill feelings. Just delete the trend, should you come across such a trend, but don't waste your time looking for it. I've been there and done that.
New York Joe, Activity Director, NIFE; Board of Directors Secretary, FOCOA and formerly Director, FOCOA Western Region, President and Founder Fieros of San Diego.
Unfortunately, people will not always get along and when you have a forum that has grown to the size ours has, and will continue to grow, we are going to have personality conflicts.
We should do a better job of moderating ourselves. However, I do not mean telling others when they are wrong as much as watching what we are posting ourselves, before we post. Look it over, and if it sounds like its something really offensive, try and re-word it to get the poinbt across.
I am probably singing to the choir here, but hopefully we all will be able to keep things civil!
One thing we can do is don't open any post that reads such as ( Female is hot and needs help) ( help me I am dying) (Check out this sexy ride) These kind of post are nothing but trouble. Answer the post that make sense like Can someone tell me the fuel pump number. or where is the fuel pump relay located. Do not reply to those silly post. Don
Hey Cliff, you know even if you wanted to, you could never close the forum! It's here to stay!
Like a lot of the others, all I can say is thank you. I haven't been here very long, but I've learned A LOT (more useful information then I do at school!!!). I joined, I didn't like fieros, but I've gained so much respect for them plus more. Unlike normal chatrooms and websites where the people talk about bs or don't talk at all, the people here actually have intelligent conversations (for the most part ) and I've gained a lot of respect for everyone here too. From what I see, everyone is like a big family and there's going to be differences (i'm the yo_sweet of my real family here at home! ) but everything can and will be worked out. Props to all!