Please, somebody remind me again why I keep the forum up and running?

I'm getting so incredibly fed up with the bullshit I find each and everyday on the forum, in my PM and in my mailbox, I'm seriously wondering why I keep the forum alive.

Some of you simply don't seem to understand you have the choice not to read some messages, but instead they must mix themselves in a discussion, creating a mess, and then leave it to me to try to clean it up. A lot of you suggested moderators. Well, moderators will not get rid of the problem, they will not change the attitude of the people.

I've requested several times now to keep it civilised, if you see something that you don't like, ignore it, or email me and I'll have a look at it.

But that hardly happens. People expect me to read every single message on the forum. Well folks, I don't. And I'm not going to.

But something has to change. And it has to change fast because like I said, I'm rapidly loosing the enthousiasm and patience I once had running this forum. So this is what I'll do:

1) From now on, as soon as I spot a thread which has the potential of turning into a flamewar, I'll close it immediately.

2) If that doesn't help, I'll close the T/OT section (because that seems to be the source of a lot of flamewars).

3) If flamewars still persist, I'll close the forum.

I'm very sorry if I'm "pulling rank" here, but if you just saw the total and utter BS I receive daily by email and PM, perhaps you would understand better.

[This message has been edited by Cliff Pennock (edited 01-20-2002).]

Your call, bud.
I'll leash my own comments.

Cliff

This link is about all I can say.

I believe, with the growth you have had with your forum, it is the different maturity levels causing the problems and of course the respective age differences on it as well. The forum does range from anybody from age 13 to 70+ (we won't talk about those that may act like 2 year olds ).

Sometimes we can all get a little immature and childlike. Me definately included . Other times, people will start an innocent thread, however, within the wording, it opens the door to others (again, me included) for a potential twist on the topic that leads to the unnecessary flame wars.

Sometimes, I feel we don't see the negative impact that could have or how others may jump on it further down the road.

The more people that join and become active on the forum, the more likely there are going to be arguments, disagreements or not seeing eye to eye with another/other member/members.

Add to the fact, we do not have the ability because of the internet to see the others body expressions, hear their emotional content (whether to take it serious or funny), tonal pitches, a twitch of a smile or that of grief, etc., and it add's inadvertently to the problem. Something innocent gets construed by the wording as something as an attack when it wasn't.

I myself prefer and attempt to be funny when ever I can and sometimes, I do get serious, or twist a comment to accomplish that (sometimes with the wrong effect). And sometimes, yes, I can be an a$$. I believe we all can. Instant a$$hole, just add a good topic.

I hope that you will not or will never come to where you have to close down the forum, especially OT. It would be a loss to those who don't get into the wars. I have gotten to know a lot of great people and who they are by how they communicate in OT that I feel I could easily talk to now and who know me enough as I do them to be easily approached.

All and all, I feel we are still a close knit family, except sibling rivelary with the occasional wrestling between siblings does occur. Yet, they may argue one point and help them out the next.

But this is your forum and you have the right to do what you feel best. Hopefully, its not done in haste or out of frustration.

Ummmmmm? By the way, what channel does your "Film's at 11" occur on as I do have satellite? Kind of interested in the news report!

Hopefully somebody (IT people) will be able to help me out in OT on information I need on an IBM AS400 system that I was getting ready to write. NO FLAMES PLEASE!

------------------

"The PRE10DR"

Hey Cliff!
Sorry to hear you are thinking of pulling the plug, but as a former BBS owner I understand fully...
It seems like humor and flames and O/T, don't mix, so try shutting it down for a couple of weeks...
Personally, I always told the whiners to leave or grow some spine, but I pulled the plug and never looked back after someone learned how to crash the board repeatedly...
crash...

You should see the Off Topic garbage at Jeeps Unlimited. Moderators have gotten pretty aggressive about deleting offensive threads.

I understand it's only a few people that is ruining it for the rest of us. But those few people are causing me a tremendous amount of work. Moderators are not the answer nor the cure.

I've always stated this to be a self-moderating forum. And I still feel it can and must be.

Well, I've learned to curb my comments about & to personalities. People are just different. Arguing points within a topic is seemingly ok, it's the argueing AT personalities that is the rub. Things may get hot here, but it's still nothing like the AF site. It's unbearble over there; PFF is still the best thing on the www. And, an apology after a disagreement goes a long way towards keeping things civil and not spreading to the next encounter.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-20-2002).]

Let me add one more thing here.

I hope nobody feels I'm trying to censor stuff here. I still feel everybody is entitled to their own opinion and to voice it. And it's still your forum. But, IMO there's a good way to voice your opinion and there's a bad way.

I'm not the big boss around here. You are. I hate it when people write "Cliff should ban you for that", or "Cliff will take care of you". No I don't. You do. I hardly ever ban people or close/delete threads just because I want to. I do so because I look at the number of complaints a certain person or thread is getting. Not complaints buried in some thread, but PMs and emails. If I don't receive (m)any complaints about a person, I will not ban him - no matter how much I dislike the person. If I don't receive complaints about a thread, I will not close it - no matter how disgusted I am with its contents.

What I'm saying is, It's not me you should be trying to please. It's the other 4000+ members.

Cliff,In the interest of your peace of mind and health you need to do what must be done.If a few individuals are giving you the most grief,then do it and don't look back.If they are causing you a problem,then they are also giving us a problem.If you feel your being open minded will be questioned you are wrong.There isn't one reasonable person that would disagree with you if you clean house of all the people that cause you grief.

It is rather sad that a place that a lot of us used to spend so much time reading, posting, and all around enjoying has been slowly losing its luster. I personally find myself talking with my other fiero friends, no longer about perhaps the tougher questions offered on PFF collaborating for an answer, and more talking about "how long before someone says something" about a particular post.

To me, its gone beyond just the flame wars, as has been said dozens of times prior, you can always choose not to read T-O/T; Even having had the O/T section shut down, doing that again I personally think will solve nothing. People will still post pointless and slanderous drivel in the other sections. We've seen this before. It goes beyond just simple flaming, its difficult to even help anyone anymore.

Someone posts a simple straightforward question, a half hour later you check back and there is a clear and concise answer to the question. Check it again in 3 hours and theres 7 more posts talking about how thats totally wrong, or a stupid idea, or my personal favorite, someone quoting a previous post, explaining that is WAY off base, totally incorrect, and then explaining in almost identical detail a solution that is the same as they called wrong from the person that was quoted. Its just stupid.
I relate it to people that talk to hear their own voice.
Often times a realistic question gets sidetracked and ends up being a conversation about anything BUT the question, and the person that asks leaves confused and/or frustrated. Even if the question was answered, its totally unnecessary 'hijacking' i believe it was called not too long ago.

What does this all have to do with the price of tea in China?
People have lost respect for this service. By a large percentage of the people, it is expected, rather than appreciated. This doesn't apply to the vast majority of the people here, but it DOES apply to a good quantity, and thats all it takes to set the mood for everyone. I know I for one don't post to but maybe one tenth of the questions that i read and could respond to. I have the knowledge, i have the experience. But before i decide if i want to post, i consider how much crap is possible that will follow.
A new person joins and asks a relatively common question, i would 'like' to answer it for them, but i know 4 more people will tell them to search the archives without even answering it. Throw in one or two more responses by people telling them the 'correct' section it should be psoted in. And maybe one out of 10 of these instances someone will just be a total ass about it, and then yet another flaming begins.
Yeah thats a nice welcome. You can inform people of these things AFTER the niceties you know.

It just seems like too many people in the kitchen sometimes.

I know no one is going to come close to agreeing with anything i've had to say on this matter, let alone what i am about to say, as i know the attitude of my post is rather defeatist. But i think what would really help everyone is to have some time in the corner by themselves. A nice little Forum time-out. Shut it down for a few days all together. Maybe a week or so. Even just restricting posting, so that new people or people in quick need of information can search the archives.

Taking the forums away for 2 hours or whatever it was last time helped... but only for a day or two. The problem has grown, in my opinion, exponentially since then. Give the people some REAL time to think about what they risk losing, and perhaps they will learn to appreciate it more.

And BTW, theres a bunch of regular folks on here that are A-1. Hopefully, if anyone even reads this, they will understand whom my ramblings WAS and WASN'T about.

Thats all.

I sympathize with Cliff. I'm hesitant with setting up a board on my site sometimes because of some stuff I see here sometimes.

------------------
Interested in a unlimited income Potential?
http://www.my.ws/fr3346514

Cliff,

I understand your grief... But don't let a few whiners change your focus on a good thing.

The forum you created is a wonderful opportunity for Fiero owners to help, share problems AND bicker.. yes sometimes people like to vent.

Most of the flame wars I've seen are harmless. AND.. sometimes is just funny too.

I think your Forum is just experiencing growing pains.. Don't let the tattletales get you down. If someone gets mad at a thread, and threatens to leave, then let them. We all know they'll cool down and come back later.

Most all the problem people will eventually get the hint and settle down...

My 2 cents.

EDIT: If its really that much of a problem, how about a temporary "suspension" of that member who is causing problems, too cool off...

------------------

1988 Formula 2.8L V6 5 speed Getrag
(Runs smooth, shifts crisp, red and shiny all over!)

[This message has been edited by REDHOTT88 (edited 01-20-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: [b]1) From now on, as soon as I spot a thread which has the potential of turning into a flamewar, I'll close it immediately. 2) If that doesn't help, I'll close the T/OT section (because that seems to be the source of a lot of flamewars). 3) If flamewars still persist, I'll close the forum. ][/B]

As you know, I'm one of your biggest supporters. Now might be the time to implement that "points system" you talked about before.

I know you don't want to boot members but it may be time for you to remember how nice it was for a while after you publicly booted Ed.

If I'm not out of line, I'd like to make a couple suggestions before you shut down the Forum that we have come to depend on:

1) "Boot a few to save the group" ... I'd suggest that if you boot 4 or 5 trouble makers it would be better for the rest of us than shutting down the Forum & more than 4000 of us.

2) "Would they say THAT in front of their Mother?" .. Don't allow anyone to have more that ONE Screen name & make everyone identify themselves by Real Names in their profile. Some of these people wouldn't say some of the things they are saying if they couldn't remain anonymous. There is no reason that someone needs more than one I.D. if they are not here to cause trouble.

For what it's worth, this is my only I.D. & My name (& location) is in my Profile.

Archie

Devotshka, I agree with much that you have to say, especially the opinion that some just like to "hear their own voice". Or maybe they just get a thrill out of watching that post counter go up. Must be something to that as there are so many 'XXXX Posts" threads in the O/T section as people reach this or that posting 'milestone'.

I recommend that you simply limit the number of posts a person can make each day. Then people would need to really think about what was important to say each day. I know it would put a severe hole into some people's lives but they could learn to do other things.

I guess it really depends on what the focus of the Forum is. I re-read the intro to see if there was some guidance there but basically it says anything goes (except racial comments, foul language, and spam). We have some of the first, plenty of the second and some of the third. It also notes that we should use our own good judgement and obviously there are many times when that doens't happen.

Cliff, I think that you should re-think the guidelines that you have for the Forum and address issues that have come to try your patience as the Forum has grown. Things are obviously different now than when you started it up. Come up with a "Terms of Use" statement then shut the Forum down for a couple of days except for the "Terms of Use" (TOU) statement. When you open it back up, advise everyone that breaking the TOU will result in xxxxx (whatever you feel is appropriate). As Ogre mentioned in a recent thread, route all new users to the TOU page before they can begin posting. I recommend that after each xxth post that current members be routed to the TOU statement again to remind us what we have agreed to.

I would hate to see anything happen to the Forum, especially the Fiero sections (Tech, Fiero Chat, the Mall, and now the PFA). I find lots of useful information to help me work on my Fiero, I can occassionally help other members solve problems with their cars, and I have bought quite a few items thru the Mall.

I think the majority of the 'members' will support whatever actions you deem appropriate to keep you from just throwing up your hands and calling it quits. And those who don't will just leave. But, I'm sure you know you have our support because it is a valuable place for Fiero information.

Need to add a few more cents.

First I would like to flame myself a bit. Threatening with closing the forum is wrong. Plain and simple. Here I am, complaining that only a few people can ruin it for the rest, then I single-handedly decide that I'll shut it down if nothing changes. That can't be right, can it? The problem is that I (like most other people) can't see the forum apart from myself. When the forum is attacked, I take it personally. When I'm attacked, I bring the forum into the fight. And I have a few more weapons to fight with (like closing/deleting threads, banning people). That ain't good. I think.

Second, I sometimes forget I'm kinda like a high profile member. I sometimes would like to rant like any other person on here. But the problem is that my rants are taken much more seriously - especially when I post them in the "Announcement" section. Like it's something really important. It always scares the sh!t out of me when I post my rant and an hour later I see all the replies I get. I'm always going like "whoa!".

Anyways, yes, we do seem to have much more flamewars than we used to have. But like some people say, it's still a whole lot less than on most other car forums. And most people are unaware there's even any flaming going on here.

I remember when there were only about 60 of us on this forum.

I remember when Cliff finally implemented smiley face things (we used to have to link them). About that time he gave us the edit button.

I remember when O/T section was added, the real-time chat, and eventually Private Messages.

I remember when Stimpy made his debut . There are lots of folks that have left, good folks. (batboy, Monkeyman, Songman, Patrick and lots and lots of others)

You don't see many people that were registered in '99 anymore. I have stuck around, been in a fight or two, took a break, then returned. (I always visited, but stopped posting for a while).

Not sure what I would do if this place shut down.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: .... the problem is that my rants are taken much more seriously - especially when I post them in the "Announcement" section. Like it's something really important...

They call it a Bully Pulpit (a terrific platform from which to persuasively advocate an agenda)

I feel special when Cliff posts a reply in a thread I started, or when he emails me. Is that wierd?

As a pretty new forum member and Fiero owner I'd just like to say that I for one certainly appreciate Cliff's efforts to create and maintain this formum.
I have asked a few questions about various topics and many people have been kind enough to answer. I've even managed to answer a few other peoples questions myself.
Sure a few flame wars occur. Personally if I have an issue with someone I'd prefer sort it out in private. Getting nasty very rarely solves anything and just leaves everyone involved with a bad taste.
I'm sure Cliff doesn't want to spend his time being the neighbourhood cop and like most communities, the quality of life depends pretty much upon the people in the community.
So, ignore the flame wars. If no one bites the offenders will go elsewhere or simply drop out of site.
as for the rest of us, enjoy the forum and being part of a pretty amazing group of people.

Dave E

quote Originally posted by SCCA FIERO: I remember when Stimpy made his debut . There are lots of folks that have left, good folks. (batboy, Monkeyman, Songman, Patrick and lots and lots of others)

Come on now, I didn't run ALL those people off!

Seriously, there are no easy fixes. But if people start getting banned and/or censured every time they said that was annoying or offensive to some "senior" member (as is often the case, no one complains when a newbie gets checked) then I know my a$$ would have been kicked out of here a long time ago.

A note to SmoothGT, hey man, didn't mean to tweak you that hard. But if someone has to tell themselves (and you) that they are a "respected member of the forum" then they are obviously seeking apporval their mothers never gave them. All I'm saying is that God put moronic little punks on this earth. You can either use them for your enjoyment, or let them get under your skin.

Well I think i'll be keeping my comments too myself , you think the flames here are bad ive seen car forums with "A Fight Club", they attack each other for no reason eather!

I have been the root of many flames , which ive stopped in my tracks since I was banned once , now i just get people picking fights with me , which now im just going to ignore.

well thats all!

quote Originally posted by SCCA FIERO: I remember when Stimpy made his debut . There are lots of folks that have left, good folks. (batboy, Monkeyman, Songman, Patrick and lots and lots of others) You don't see many people that were registered in '99 anymore. I have stuck around, been in a fight or two, took a break, then returned. (I always visited, but stopped posting for a while). Not sure what I would do if this place shut down.

I was wondering what happened to those guys. Don't think stmpy was responsoble for all that though. lol.

I rememeber when it used to be that almost everytime Archie posted someone bashed him.

Times, they are a changin'

------------------
Jeff
AOL IM : Only2xsess

Visit My Website

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Need to add a few more cents. .

Me too
Anyone have change for a nickel?

quote First I would like to flame myself a bit. Threatening with closing the forum is wrong. Plain and simple.

I got some fresh marshmellows
I wont argue with that
Now pass me the stick and grahmcrackers please.

quote Here I am, complaining that only a few people can ruin it for the rest, then I single-handedly decide that I'll shut it down if nothing changes. That can't be right, can it?

More or less it is not right but anyone with a shread of respect knows YOU are at the helm and YOU provide this as a free service to all of us. I dont think you would allow evil to triumph at the expense of all the good.

quote The problem is that I (like most other people) can't see the forum apart from myself. When the forum is attacked, I take it personally. When I'm attacked, I bring the forum into the fight. And I have a few more weapons to fight with (like closing/deleting threads, banning people). That ain't good. I think.

Yes many feel that way too and I think thats why flames get going. You do have the power to bring the forum (with severl thousand members) into play. Weapons are good if used properly and decissively.

quote Second, I sometimes forget I'm kinda like a high profile member. I sometimes would like to rant like any other person on here. But the problem is that my rants are taken much more seriously - especially when I post them in the "Announcement" section. Like it's something really important. It always scares the sh!t out of me when I post my rant and an hour later I see all the replies I get. I'm always going like "whoa!".

No.. we all dont take you seriously Anyhow maybe it's because you seem obscure and mysterious, to me you seem like a VERY busy person and don't have much time to spend piddeling around the forum posting stuff but it's nice to see it when you do.

I may have found a bug or something because I could not post this all together.. My reply continues below

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 01-20-2002).]

Stimpy is the root of all problems. Where were you the day J.F.K. was shot? Go ahead, tell 'em.

Just kidding, maybe

No really, I just put those words in the wrong place. Didn't mean to imply you ran those people off. We all love Stimp. If we didn't, he would kick our arses!

I just figured I would say THANK YOU for giving us the forum!

quote Originally posted by SCCA FIERO: You don't see many people that were registered in '99 anymore.

I'm still here......Stimpy didn't run me off!

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Threatening with closing the forum is [b]wrong...Here I am, complaining that only a few people can ruin it for the rest, then I single-handedly decide that I'll shut it down if nothing changes. That can't be right, can it?...When the forum is attacked, I take it personally...And I have a few more weapons to fight with (like closing/deleting threads, banning people). That ain't good. I think. Second, I sometimes forget I'm kinda like a high profile member. I sometimes would like to rant like any other person on here. But the problem is that my rants are taken much more seriously - especially when I post them in the "Announcement" section. Like it's something really important. Anyways, yes, we do seem to have much more flamewars than we used to have....[/B]

Cliff, as you have said, this is not a free country, because this is not a country, it is your personal (professional) domain. The proper framework is that this is your house, and 4K people stop by every day. Some talk about superchargers and Dodge Neons and Finale kits, and some people talk about downloading MP3's and the ACLU and broken donuts. We sit and eat your food (bandwidth), which you happily let us do. A few of us express our gratitude.

Sometimes there is a fight. Although no furniture gets broken, the luster of the Forum gets tarnished, just a bit, and you do have every right to take that personally. Personally, I have no issues with you venting at us in any room of the house, be it in Announcements, which is probably the kitchen, or O/T, which is probably the can. I know that I've posted some things that I expected to be called on, but the e-mail never came. I also have very low tolerance for a couple of members (can you guess who?), and as such, I have no qualms with showing my disdain (again, I have gotten no e-mails).

I can't really offer good advice, so I'll just say thank you. I laud you for your patience and your wisdom. Hopefully, I'll get my Formula complete (ETA 3-4 years) before you close the doors.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: O/T, which is probably the can.

I just want to understand why it is that you (and many others) feel that T/OT is the can?

I find it valuable and interesting and at times yes, annoying. There is life beyond the other two forums GFC and TDQ. T/OT fills the gap and rounds out the forum nicely. Now this is just my lowley opinion.

I'd really miss the forum. I even read it while I was working in China. I didn't register until I came back home, but I enjoyed reading the forum like a little piece of home, even though Cliff is in the Netherlands. I know I get irritated with some of the threads, but have forced myself not to respond when things get out of hand.

Remembering the spark plug thread and Vinniewolf. I never did understand what the deal was, sort of funny as I look back on it.

The convenience of PM is nice, but with it there are some who, unfortunately, abuse it, just like the internet. Some think that it is there right to be a jerk and that everyone else has to accept them. I guess that their mommies never gave them enough of a time out, and now Cliff is forced to be their mommy, a job he doesn't want or deserve. However since its Cliff's service and his nickel, he needs to run the place as he sees fit. Those who don't follow the rules, should go create their own forum and suffer with the Eds and BS's of the world.

Cliff, you do what you feel is right, but it isn't worth of lot of the aggrivation you are getting. This is supposed to be a fun place with lots of information.

... did Monkeyman leave? when, what, where? man this job is keeping me away from the forum.

Yes, I do truely miss the old gang, but turnover is to be expected. That is the nature of life.

I to am guilty of occaisionally picking on a few people (especially you know who and his front porch ) Sorry, but it is all in fun.

As for the trouble makers... ban em, kick em off. Zap their ISP's! you've done it b4, do it again!

Cliff, I love ya man (there i said it... as long as you know it's in a brotherly sort of way)! You've done a lot for all of us, and i truely apreciate that!

------------------
hoop
Red 86 GT 5 speed
Black 86 SE Automatic

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: This is supposed to be a fun place with lots of information.

I know. And most of the time it is. And as I hope I've proven many times, I can take a lot of abuse. But sometimes, fortunately not that often, somebody attacks my integrity, and that's something I'll always react very strongly to.

Hi Cliff, I just wanted to pop in and publically THANK YOU for running this fourm for all of us.

I don't know if you realize it, but your fourm here is a piviotal and integral member of the Fiero community now, withought it we'd be stuck in the dark ages

I don't really have any solutions for you, other than a bit of wisdom from Robert A Hienlin (that will hardly be new to you, but nonetheless...) "The best ruler is the one who does the absolute minimum nessicary to avoid total chaos and collapse, and no more."

Your 'self-moderating' fourm works very well indeed, but we do need you to step in every so often and help us out. Not too often, and you've shown admirable restraint and tact. I think the idea is sound, and the Fourm simply great!

Thanks again.

Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

I would just like to say that while I have owned Fieros since 1996, (five years,) only in the last 4 months, since I have found this forum, have I really LEARNED anything about Fieros. Sure I read the book (you know the one I mean,) and learned the personality of the cars I had, but NOW I have 1000% more knowledge about what can go wrong/right. Now I know production numbers. I now have a network of people here in Denver that I can talk shop with, and I have learned what a "V-8 Archie" is. I found the Fiero Store and Rodney Dickman through this sight, and spend at least 2 hours a day here, usually very late at night.

All of this boils down to this Forum. YOUR forum, Mr. Pennock. It is, as far as I (care to) know, the biggest, and best watering hole for Fiero enthusiasts in the entire world.

If it wasn't for your efforts, I would still be wondering what to do about a fluttering headlamp or whether my car is really a Formula or a GT. (It is a GT, btw.) I would still wonder if I was the only guy on earth who *really* likes Fieros. I appreciate it, and despite the "bad side of town" around here, (troublemakers and the people they cause to always reply,) I find this place enjoyable.

Don't give up. And Thank You.

- Patrick (Flamberge)

------------------
- Flamberge

I'm new here so I'll keep it simple. Thank You Cliff for this forum. It's been hard for me to find the info I need for my rebuild and there is a wealth of knowledge here. The information I've been getting from so many is valuable. I would like to thank everyone who has givin me advise and resources.

Btw 84Bill you forgot the chocolate for the smores.

I saw some flame war going on with I forgot his name "BlackMustang85"? I just ignored it because it wasn't worth the energy or trouble. If you banded him Cliff, Thanks.

84bill I put in my $.02 along with yours and I'll take that nickel and leave a penny for the next contestant.

[This message has been edited by FieroGT87 (edited 01-21-2002).]

Well, I would like to say (this is going to be long!!) that... damn...it already ate my penny...aahhh quick, thanks Cliff, for the for...

[This message has been edited by Screwie (edited 01-21-2002).]

Screwie
Never use the blue penny.

Cliff-

Just wanted to thank you directly for the forum. I am the one of the truest forms of an addict, and I love it.

Back in March of 2001, my company layed off half its staff- of which all of those who left were my personal friends. Those that remain I am not really fond of, as they are true co-workers and associates (not friends). In July when I found the forum (or found myself on the forum )- I suddenly had communication with the outside world again. The forum is really my only/primary form of "personal" contact with other people. Without the forum, I'd probably end up back in the "gutter" (reading pages & pages of ebay listings), and struggling to find Fiero Tech info through numerous search engines. I just can't thank you enough for what you're doing, not only for the Fiero Community- but also for me personally.

As to what to do about flame wars... I don't have any problem with you closing anything that's looking like it's "catching fire". Do what you have to, since people aren't understanding how to actually act in this type of situation. Just keep up the good work!

------------------

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I just want to understand why it is that you (and many others) feel that T/OT is the can?

84B: It was a joke. It seems to be universally accepted that if you want to see the flamewars (In any forum, not just this one.), just go to the O/T section. It's the moderators' biggest headache, assuming s/he's watching what's going on, and it has the least to do with why the Forum is here. Again, this is not necessarily a bad thing, just the way it is. Like the saying goes, "Opinions are like (rectums). Everyone's got one, and they're usually full of (waste product)."

OTOH, the bathroom is the last place I talk to anyone, but maybe that's just typical of guys. Except my son (He's 5).