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4.5 / 4.9 camshaft by smokuspollutus
Started on: 11-05-2020 10:04 AM
Replies: 13 (190 views)
Last post by: Shho13 on 11-20-2020 02:45 PM
smokuspollutus
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Report this Post11-05-2020 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for smokuspollutusSend a Private Message to smokuspollutusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi guys, looking for a camshaft out of a 4.5 or 4.9 Cadillac (or 4.1 Allante). Not for a Fiero project, but I figured this would be a good place to search for it. Additionally, I need the lifter girdle that screws into the lifter block. Anyone have a junk engine with these parts? Thanks so much guys.

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Report this Post11-05-2020 03:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Try giving Delta Cams a call, they have cam shafts for the 4.9 sitting around the last time I spoke with them.
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smokuspollutus
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Report this Post11-06-2020 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for smokuspollutusSend a Private Message to smokuspollutusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

Try giving Delta Cams a call, they have cam shafts for the 4.9 sitting around the last time I spoke with them.



Thank you, I will get in touch with them tomorrow.
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smokuspollutus
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Report this Post11-09-2020 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for smokuspollutusSend a Private Message to smokuspollutusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Spoke to Delta today, reasonably priced for a stock cam. Anyone here have the roller lifter retainer that screws into the lifter block, as well as the button that goes on the front of the timing gear to keep the cam from walking in and out? I am converting a motor from flat tappets to roller and will need these parts in addition to the cam. Thanks so much.
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smokuspollutus
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Report this Post11-12-2020 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for smokuspollutusSend a Private Message to smokuspollutusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update: currently looking for the cam button only. 4.5 or 4.9 will have these, GM Part # 1637031.
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Raydar
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Report this Post11-12-2020 08:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by smokuspollutus:

Spoke to Delta today, reasonably priced for a stock cam. Anyone here have the roller lifter retainer that screws into the lifter block, as well as the button that goes on the front of the timing gear to keep the cam from walking in and out? I am converting a motor from flat tappets to roller and will need these parts in addition to the cam. Thanks so much.


I can't really help with your search for pieces (currently just a cam button) but it sounds like an interesting project.
Mind if I inquire?
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Report this Post11-14-2020 03:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It wouldn't hurt you to find John Leo on Facebook. He is a guru with those motors. He may be able to give you some advice on those parts.
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smokuspollutus
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Report this Post11-15-2020 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for smokuspollutusSend a Private Message to smokuspollutusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi guys, this thread actually ended up being much ado about nothing.

This is not a Fiero project but figured given the interest in these motors I thought this would be a good place to look for parts. I have a 1984 Cadillac Eldorado that has a 4.1/HT4100 engine. Same internal construction as the 4.5/4.9 but externally very different with a BOP bellhousing for longitudinal mounting. This was the first generation of 4.x motors and had a lot of teething issues (though mine is just fine, just lacking in the power department as they all did)

I recently came into a GM Goodwrench 4100 warranty replacement motor from the 90s that is also set up BOP/longitudinal. Difference is that it has all the casting reinforcements that were incorporated into the 4.5 and 4.9, which were metric bellhousing/transverse only. Plan is to swap 4.5 larger bore cylinder liners/pistons into it, and use 4.5 TBI fuel injectors to make a direct bolt
in with the additional 20-30hp and 40/50 lb/ft of torque that made the 4.5 liter cars so nice to drive.

Additionally, I wanted to lose the flat tappet cam and go to rollers. All HT4100s were flat tappets (and many ended up with flat cams too...) Flat tappet 4100's had a different lifter block (on this series engine, the lifter block bolts in, but is not removable since the cam bearings were line-bored at the factory) than the later roller 4.5 and 4.9, lacking the provision for the hold downs that keep the roller lifters from spinning. Didn't think it was going to be possible to do, but when I popped the intake off, my Goodwrench engine had the roller lifter block, albeit with a flat tappet cam installed. So that was good news-all I needed to do was get a cam, lifter dog bones, and hold down bar and I was in business. Then realized I needed a thrust bearing on the timing gear with a roller setup.

Of course the thrust bearing is something not shared with any other motor, is discontinued, and way harder to get out of a used engine then the lifter stuff since the water pump/timing cover area is so tight on the 4.5 and 4.9 transverse Cadillacs. So, for shits and giggles last night I took the timing cover off my Goodwrench engine-lo and behold, it has the thrust bearing. On the flat tappet cam. Weird. No telling why they didn't just put a roller setup in if they went thru all the other trouble, but I guess I'll find out.

Thank you guys.

[This message has been edited by smokuspollutus (edited 11-15-2020).]

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Raydar
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Report this Post11-15-2020 09:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I might be inclined to just do a 4.9, with whatever injection you can bolt on, in order to make your setup work.
There were longitudinal trannies made with the 4.9 bell housing pattern. I'm thinking that one from a 3800 F-body would work nicely.
Regardless of what you do, I wish you success with your project.

Welcome!
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smokuspollutus
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Report this Post11-18-2020 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for smokuspollutusSend a Private Message to smokuspollutusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the welcome Raydar. The issue is that the Eldo is actually front wheel drive, with the engine mounted longitudinally. So there's no easy way to go 4.9. So the goodwrench block is as close as you can get to that goal, and keep all the same accessory mounting/etc which is totally different on the transverse engines. To be honest, if I was going to go and have to fab things up-probably wouldn't be on a 4.x motor.



Take care guys
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Report this Post11-18-2020 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's a cool car.
And yeah. I had completely forgotten about the longitudinal FWD setup in those cars.
Does it use the TH425? Or was there a smaller transaxle built, just for the smaller car?
Curious, because the 425 was pretty much bulletproof. Designed to handle high power engines in the original Eldo and Toronado. (You know where my mind is going.. )
Regardless... good luck with your project.

Edit - FWIW, the 4.5 and 4.9 share the same bore size. At least the later ones. (There were two different "versions" of 4.5. If you're doing the early 4.5 stuff, I don't know anything about those.)
The 4.9 is also neutral (internally) balanced. If you're going to all the trouble of swapping the 4.5 guts into your cylinder case, then the 4.9 guts shouldn't be any more difficult.
I'm guessing you're going to have to swap the flex plate anyway.
Also... the PFI 4.5 and 4.9 heads got revised coolant passages. If you use the newer heads, make sure that whatever intake you use will be compatible.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-19-2020).]

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smokuspollutus
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Report this Post11-19-2020 01:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for smokuspollutusSend a Private Message to smokuspollutusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank you. The transmission is a 325-4L, a derivative of the original 425 that they lightened up and gave an overdrive gear/lockup torque converter. Where the 425 was basically a front wheel drive 400, the 325-4L is basically a front wheel drive 200-4R. So, not the strongest in the world for sure, but my 4.5 build won't be exactly earth-shattering either...

You are right about the bore size, that stayed the same 1988-1995. In 1990 though they made more room in the crankcase for the longer stroke of the 4.9 that showed up in 1991. What changed was the actual length of the liner, as they pushed the bottom of the block upwards. So a 4.9 crank won't reconcile with my application (in addition to having a different flexplate mount (3 bolt on mine, 6 bolt on the transverse engines) and a shorter snout for the serpentine belt (mine is V-belt). Right now the plan is just to take 88-89 4.5 liners & pistons and install into the block, of course rebalance everything, up the fuel injector size to match, and keep on trucking. The transverse 4.1 and 88-89 4.5 cranks are the same, so my longitudinal 4.1 crank should be able to be kept.

Unfortunately I will end up having to use the 4.1 heads currently on the engine. You mention the coolant crossover (which was the death of a lot of these) changing shape when they went to 4.5 liters. Sadly the longitudinal intake manifold only has ports for the original shape. The transverse manifolds are completely different and won't reconcile with the accessories, throttle body, etc (though will bolt to the engine) I would really have considered just trying to marry later heads to the original intake, but besides taking an internal coolant leak risk, I don't believe any of the 4.5 or 4.9 heads the exhaust manifold AIR castings on them. I know, worthless to keep, but would like to have everything there and working as it does now.

There were three 4.1 head styles, original longitudinal with open chambers, regular transverse with closed chambers, and 1987-88 Allante open chambers. I have not taken the heads off my Goodwrench engine yet to see what it has, but willing to bet on transverse closed chambers. Which is ok, better for torque, with I'm sure a small hit in horsepower. I would use the 4.1 Allante heads but again they don't have the AIR provisions on them.

Re: Big power...I had thought about going down that road! Small block Olds and big block Cadillac engines were both in this chassis, so mounts and other parts exist to the point where I could have mix and matched anything from a 403 to a 500 in-of course with the big power comes big weight. Need to fit a 425 trans in too to sustain the power, which would be really hard as they never came with one stock. Those 60s/70s Eldos were really heavy in the front and because of that I never really liked the way they drove (and ate front end parts!). In that way, the 4100 and 4 speed was really good for this chassis as they were able to keep the front wheel drive and get the complete floaty feeling at the same time. So, goal is to keep all the good light weight, fuel injection, belt drive of the 4.1, with none of the bad low power, intake gasket or cam issues!

I'll keep you posted with my progress, soon to start a build thread for it on a Cadillac board I'm a member of-will link it here for anyone else interested in the 4.X family.
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Raydar
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Report this Post11-19-2020 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ah... okay. Obviously you've done your homework.

Still sounds like an interesting project. I'll be quiet and wait for updates.
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Shho13
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Report this Post11-20-2020 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shho13Click Here to Email Shho13Send a Private Message to Shho13Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll be sure to check it out too, very cool!

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