I know they didn't paint it Orange and over spray it. Also the Pace car was a 2.7 and this is a 2.5 The headers look powder coated or that is silver paint which is another thing I know they would not have done. The trans is painted silver as you can see over spray on the label. This one would scar me without documentation and a hands on. Rick B
The header is stainless steel and roush didn't make it. Roush only supplied the complete engine. The owner before me supplied the auto trans and the cradle. I DO have the documentation from Roush. I'm curious as to how someone can look at a picture and tell you exactly what it's not? Is anyone willing to help me out here? I'm the one with the engine. I'm the one with the documentation. What do you have?
It says 2.5 on the side. This engine was most probably for a off road car. I never knew them to use anything but a 2.7 in the Pace car which was also built in 1983/1984. They never used them again after that. I am not trying to be a butt head just stating some obvious facts. Rick B
Also the flanges of the exhaust are rusted and you can see what looks like over spray on the rusted flanges. I swore they made them completely stainless and not welded to iron flanges. Maybe I am wrong about that and part of the flange is not rusted yet. But the over spray on the trans label and the orange all over is not professional, nor were the Pace Car engines this color from what I seen. Here is a Pace Car engine. Rick B
I give up. I have paper documentation from Roush that says "spare PPG pace car engine" and now I'm told that I don't know what I'm talking about. I have no idea what the picture is in your response but that's not my engine and not the engine in my pictures. I don't care anything about overspray or the color of the engine. Of course the block says 2.5. That's what it was marketed as. All of the SD4 blocks started life as a 2.5. They may have been modified by stroke and/or bore but they started life as a 2.5. I have a block that's marked 2.5 and it's actually a 3.4 because I have a 3 15/16 stroker crank in it with .030 overbore. I've raced Fieros for years and have built and re-built SD4's. I know that they're capable of 300-350 HP depending on who's bragging. I have four of them in my shop right now. I also have a Cosworth 3.0 in a streetable widebody. I have a Fiero IMSA racecar...it's for sale too...It was on this forum and documented as legitimate. I never did and I never will even hint that I'm an expert but I do know what I have. I have a little knowledge and I'm willing to share it with any body that's interested...but Im not interested in any kind of argument about what I know that I have. If someone wants to buy what I have, they can have it. I just thought I'd offer it to someone with a legitimate pacecar. I guess I was wrong. Also, I'm sure that the people at Roush, who sent me the documentation would be glad to know that they're wrong. Once again, I give up as I obviously don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about.
The seller states the engine is unused but then says he has no clue if it has been used. Sorry, but $8500 is a lot of money. It's the sellers responsibility to accurately represent the condition of the item. Not to repeat what the previous owner told him. Has the engine been run before or is it worn out and has issues? Are there any guarantees with this engine?
Does the seller have a notarized statement from Roush with a serial number stating the engine has been in their warehouse since 1984?
Sorry, but I've been burned too many times from believing wonderful stories. I only deal in hard facts from now on.
[This message has been edited by Ventura (edited 02-08-2015).]
It does look like a never run SD4 motor to me, ready to drop in. Based on that alone, its a fair price. The bit that is not clear is the PPG Pace Car label. I don't remember seeing anything that ever said the Fiero pace car was sponsored. There was a 1984 PPG Pace car which was a Corvette. This is the car that went into the sink hole in the Corvette Museum. I'd love to see the engine documenation just for my own curiousity of learning more about the SD4 and the Pace Car program. I'd previously read that the Fiero Indy Pace Car was Fuel Injected, but it would be cool to find out that there was a Carb version too and understand why they built both.
Here is some information sent to Georgia Fieros, including pictures of the tags that are/were on the engine and a response from Mark Yagelo of Roush Racing.
Quote Mark: Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 12:57 PM
Subject: RE: PPG pacecar engine Pontiac Fiero
I’m going to call the tags the real thing. The one on the left is a general information tag we bought in bulk back then just so we could keep track of details on inventory material. The other two are on/off tags we used in that era to keep track of program parts that were removed from vehicles for later reinstallation. Of course, they got used for just about anything else, too. I cannot imagine how or why anyone would fake one of those tags so, my call is they are the real thing.
Now the bad news: this dates back almost 30 years and nobody can scare up any records specific to this engine. I’m going to tell you they were probably trashed some number of years back when we got pressed for storage space.
The third and fourth tags are the same, just front and back.
Clearly says RACE ENGINE not Pace Car. You can see the little leg on what he is calling a "P". Also like I said it is a 2.5 not a 2.7 Embellishing over facts is what gets me as much as the Neg I received for telling the truth and hurting the owners feelings. The Roush letter proves nothing either as they stated. I am not bashing that it is a SD4 but the story is only that a " Story" Buy the product not the story as they say. Sorry if the truth hurts. Rick B
[This message has been edited by SuperchargedV6 (edited 02-13-2015).]
I have documentation as to what it is...You have only an opinion. You question the documentation. From a fuzzy picture you have made an "R" out of a "P". Your detective work is flawless. I really appreciate your straightening everybody out. In your next response, could you please include the address for the Tooth Fairy?
SuperCharged - I have a better scan of the tags, and it clearly says PPG Pontiac and PACE car. (The PPG Pace car should NOT be confused with the Indy Pace Cars.) And it does say 2.5 Liter. An SD block is an SD block only real difference being is is RollerBearing for the cam or not. However you can put different Crankshaft in them and get 2.5, 2.7 or 3.0 liters. What is stamped on the block is meaningless in terms of knowing what the displacement is. You would need to measure the stroke to know that. I don't see that the seller is making any claims that aren't accurate.
Clearly says RACE ENGINE not Pace Car. You can see the little leg on what he is calling a "P". .................. Rick B.
I'll send you the original pictures that Bob sent to us. You can enlarge it and clearly see what the tag actually says. Check your email. I can see how the tag can be read to indicate different vehicles.
Look folks, and this is my last comment. There was never a claim that Roush built this complete assembly. The only claim that was made here is that Roush built the "long block" and that it was only to be a spare "long block". No header, no intake, no distributor, nothing but a long block. Never any claims as to where it was, what it was ever installed in or whatever. You can see the pictures and it should be obvious that someone else (don't have a clue as to who) has finished the assembly and turned it into a "ready to install" assembly. That's all it is...nothing else and nothing more. You go by what you see and can prove to yourself...Believe the stories...believe the documentation...or just look at it as a fresh SD4 assembly that's ready to install. Buyer beware or buyer be happy...There's nothing else to say. Bless all you naysayers. If it doesn't sell, I'll use it myself in a Fiero that simply needs an engine and keep it as a fun driver...and I'm sure I'll be very satisfied. There has only been one offer on the assembly and it was very very close to finding a new home...but alas, no deal. Maybe some day.
Anybody think it would be worthwhile to take this thing and the IMSA racecar to the Daytona event?
I can't say whether it would be worth it from a selling standpoint, but I'd definitely love to see both I don't think I'll have the kind of money you're wanting in my car fund anytime soon, but I love seeing and learning about the race cars and engines.