I haven't really been monitoring this thread much but decided to check it today. Topher_time is correct. I don't know if I could ever drive my Fiero without the bars. It just makes the car feel so much better. But again, don't take my word for it. I agree that feeing a product is the bets way to know if that is what someone wants. I want happy customers. Frankly I don't care howmany bars I sell. This is a hobby to have fun with and enjoy others having a good time with my product/R&D.
For what it is worth I received good feed back from a race team using the '88 bars at Road Atlanta. They dropped several seconds off of their lap times just from adding the bars.
I haven't really been monitoring this thread much but decided to check it today. Topher_time is correct. I don't know if I could ever drive my Fiero without the bars. It just makes the car feel so much better. But again, don't take my word for it. I agree that feeing a product is the bets way to know if that is what someone wants. I want happy customers. Frankly I don't care howmany bars I sell. This is a hobby to have fun with and enjoy others having a good time with my product/R&D.
For what it is worth I received good feed back from a race team using the '88 bars at Road Atlanta. They dropped several seconds off of their lap times just from adding the bars.
In your opinion, would you feel that a sway bar set up like this would change the responsiveness and overall grip more than a tubular control arm set up?
Would my spring rate affect my overall level of grip or just the stiffness of the ride?
I am trying to get the best performance out of my suspension without killing my budget as a student.
The real trick is the combination. I have not driven a Fiero with just a tube arm setup to see how much just that modification helps. However from an engineering standpoint, unless the stock A-arms are like rubber, adding tube A-arms on a street ca is a little overkill. I don't think it is the best bang for the buck. Will they help on a road course and with fine tuning... absolutely. If you have rubber bushings and soft shocks... probably not.
The springs can increase or decrease stiffness depending on what you get. The whole idea behind a suspension is to keep as much tire patch on the ground (and loaded) as possible. An anti-sway bar helps this by keeping the car from leaning as much (duh) and therefore keeps the tire patch and load more balanced. When you jack your car up the wheel starts to hang, right? That is the same thing that happens when the suspension leans away from that tire. Springs can also help with this. Picture a go-kart. No way bar here, right? But the thing is stiff as a board. That's because the "spring" and "bar" are actually the kart frame itself. And they flex too. Anyway.. back to the Fiero.... Basically what you will feel with a stiffer spring is less lean, but a much rougher ride than a good swaybar. The spring compresses against the chassis, the bar has a torsion load to the other wheel (not as rigid).
Some racing books tell you to go with the sofest spring rate possible and use the sway bar and shocks to tune.
In your opinion, would you feel that a sway bar set up like this would change the responsiveness and overall grip more than a tubular control arm set up?
Would my spring rate affect my overall level of grip or just the stiffness of the ride?
I am trying to get the best performance out of my suspension without killing my budget as a student.
I just read back through my post and realized that I did not answer your questions directly.
In your opinion, would you feel that a sway bar set up like this would change the responsiveness and overall grip more than a tubular control arm set up? .... Yes if the only change was the tubular control arm. IF you change syspension geometry all bets are off.
Would my spring rate affect my overall level of grip or just the stiffness of the ride? .... A higher spring rate can iprove overall grip and the stiffness of the ride. How much stiffer depends on the sprnig. A sway bar will have a similar affect but I feel like the bar will be less harsh for the same level of grip improvement.
IF you are trying to stick to a lower budget, toss a front sway bar on the rear and be done. Prices are approximate prices. The options in order of expense:
1. Stock swaybar on the rear (cheap $40?) 2. Addco rear bar ($150) 3. Addco front and rear bar ($300) 4. Addco front and HHP rear ($500) 5. HHP front and rear ($750) 6. HHP front ans rear with a second set of bars to change the levels of stiffness ($1000)
I used to be bent on getting the tubular set up on my car, and with looking at the options out there and their overall affect on the handling characteristics of my car, I've started to realize I may have ended up dissapointed. The held kit changes the geometry of the front suspension slightly, and the rear kit is said to eliminate bump steer. However, the front geometry is still very limited to the mounting points of arms, and I believe you are only able to run a few more degrees of caster. The bonus is the adjustibility of the coilovers, however I would probably feel a much bigger difference with both of your sway bars installed and a few other items.
Currently, I have a front sway bar on the rear and the handling seemed to have improved slightly. However, my suspension needs a serious overhaul. Let me know how this plan for the upcoming car season sounds.
1. Aluminum Cradle Bushings 2. Full Polyeurethane bushings 3. Front/Rear HHP sway bars 4. Rear Coilovers (So I can choose a new spring rate in the rear to match my 3800SC engine and so I can run wider tires in the future... a little heavier in the rear now) 5. Rebuilt Steering rack 6. Proper Alignment
Hopefully that will tighten things up a bit and make the car more responsive and hold a little better in the corners.
Let me know what you think from your perspective of studying the handling characteristics of the car. At this rate, expect a customer in the early spring time
Let me know how this plan for the upcoming car season sounds.
1. Aluminum Cradle Bushings 2. Full Polyeurethane bushings 3. Front/Rear HHP sway bars 4. Rear Coilovers (So I can choose a new spring rate in the rear to match my 3800SC engine and so I can run wider tires in the future... a little heavier in the rear now) 5. Rebuilt Steering rack 6. Proper Alignment
Hopefully that will tighten things up a bit and make the car more responsive and hold a little better in the corners.
Let me know what you think from your perspective of studying the handling characteristics of the car. At this rate, expect a customer in the early spring time
It sounds like a good plan. I would do all of the hard work first (replacing warn suspension parts, poly, steering rack) then get the alignment done, and afterwards do the swaybars. The bars can be added without modifying the suspension or the alignment. After the first two steps you will have a much better handling car. After driving it for a month or two, then consider what type of bars you want to go with. I think this will make you more satisfied in the long run.
Right now I'm leaning towards one of the stiffer set ups. My fiero isn't a car I would take on long drives or am concerned with comfort at all. I only get to drive it a few months of the year so I would rather just have a car that performs and rides like a go-kart. I have non reclinable racing seats in there right now, cut my front eibach springs down a coil, and a harsh ride doesn't bother me. I plan on eventually autocrossing as well. I would prefer a neutral handling car that I can adjust for oversteer once I become more comfortable with pushing the car to the limits.
Right now I'm leaning towards one of the stiffer set ups. My fiero isn't a car I would take on long drives or am concerned with comfort at all. I only get to drive it a few months of the year so I would rather just have a car that performs and rides like a go-kart. I have non reclinable racing seats in there right now, cut my front eibach springs down a coil, and a harsh ride doesn't bother me. I plan on eventually autocrossing as well. I would prefer a neutral handling car that I can adjust for oversteer once I become more comfortable with pushing the car to the limits.
Sounds like you have a well thought out plan. One piece at a time and before you know it, you'll look out in the driveway and say "holy crap! I built a race car!"
Any pictures of the rear bar showing where it sits "behind" the cradle? I looked through the thread but didnt really find a very clear one. I need to see how high it sits behind the cradle to see if it will interfere with my muffler. I have a magnaflow in there for my swap and its pretty beefy... I'm finally home for Christmas so I can visually inspect my car now.
It looks like it's going to be REALLY tight... however it may fit. If the muffler and the bar is touching, I doubt it will really affect anything negatively.
It looks like it's going to be REALLY tight... however it may fit. If the muffler and the bar is touching, I doubt it will really affect anything negatively.
Do you think it would possible then, if the exhaust is in the way, to have the brackets circled here in red:
to have them lengthened (as shown in green)so that the mounting point for the bushings is lower?
You could still get the bar level but it would just sit lower. This would not adversly affect the performance of the bar based on the joints, I would think...
I can make different brackets, but I had a bach of them made for cost purposes. Also, if I extend the bracket, the bar will start to hang below the car which defeats the purpose of the ground clearance and weaken the support to the bar. It will also slightly change the geometry at the end links.
While the ground clearance is definitely a plus for this set up, I am most interested in the adjustibility of the set up and the stiffness that goes beyond a front bar in the rear set up, or even the addco bars. If it is too much work for you to have the brackets lengthened, I could always get somebody around here to do it, or my gfs dad does tool and die work, he could get someone to fix something up for me, so that not really a concern, dont worry
I just figure that lengthening two brackets is much easier than rerouting the exhaust. If the geometry is slightly changed, I don't think it will have too profound of a change for me to even notice unless I'm going to take the car to the track. Then I probably still wouldn't even notice.
As long as it's possible to do this I probably will do it.
Yes it is possible. How much does it need to move for the bar to be clear? I suggest you try mounting the bar first and take a measurement before making new brackets. That way you will know for sure. Measure twice, cut once. Who knows? Maybe it will fit.
Damn, I want a set of these bad. Gearing up for a swap unfortunately, so I can't spare the cash for a pair. I just wanted to drop in and say this looks like excellent work. I hope the community supports you well.
Damn, I want a set of these bad. Gearing up for a swap unfortunately, so I can't spare the cash for a pair. I just wanted to drop in and say this looks like excellent work. I hope the community supports you well.
Paul this year will be quite exciting for my fiero. I will have money to purchase modifacations instead of just enough for maintainance. Your bars are on that list of mods. I will let you know when I plan to purchase them. I am thinking sport front and comp rear. Other upgrades will include full poly, intrax springs,new shocks/struts, 17" wheels, good tires, and bigger brakes. btw this is an 85 4cl. I think that set up will give me the best range of adjustablilty for a daily driver that I want to be able to make u-turns without the front tires howling like a scalded dog. But also let me tune it for track use as well. What do you think?
Paul this year will be quite exciting for my fiero. I will have money to purchase modifacations instead of just enough for maintainance. Your bars are on that list of mods. I will let you know when I plan to purchase them. I am thinking sport front and comp rear. Other upgrades will include full poly, intrax springs,new shocks/struts, 17" wheels, good tires, and bigger brakes. btw this is an 85 4cl. I think that set up will give me the best range of adjustablilty for a daily driver that I want to be able to make u-turns without the front tires howling like a scalded dog. But also let me tune it for track use as well. What do you think?
I think it sounds like a great plan but I would (if it were me and I understand you correctly) go with compatible sway bars. If you decide to use a competition rear then I recommend going with a competition front and like wise, if you deside on a sport rear then use the same sport tuning up front. I think you will be much happier. Using a competition rear with a sport front will produce massive amounts of oversteer.
I wrote that wrong. I am going to get both front and rear performance sets and an extra compitition bar for the rear. I somehow left out that part. But anyhow these bars are by far the best for fieros. I didn't' see anymention of them on your cardomain site. Either way great work. You are an asset to the community.
I wrote that wrong. I am going to get both front and rear performance sets and an extra compitition bar for the rear. I somehow left out that part. But anyhow these bars are by far the best for fieros. I didn't' see anymention of them on your cardomain site. Either way great work. You are an asset to the community.
That's alright. I read it wrong. Thank you for the complement. A long time ago I posted them as a note on my CarDomain site but thought that that was not the right location for it. For what it is worth, these are the same bar and arm designs (different size) I use on my IMSA. It is considered professional race equipment that I made work for the street Fiero.
Asset to the community... well maybe some part of that word .... I'm just having fun knowing others are enjoying my work.
Haven't been back to this thread for months but I am still interested. I asked a couple questions earlier (before you offered the 88 bars) about a mixed suspension setup (85 front, 88 rear). I now have a stock 85 front bar and stock 88 rear bar on the car. These bars are the same diameter and there is a too much oversteer for my liking. Actually kind of scary on higher speed corners. I am considering going with the 84-87 front bar to help the balance with the stock 88 rear bar. This car is a performance oriented daily driver. Can you recommend a good place to start for a front bar?
Haven't been back to this thread for months but I am still interested. I asked a couple questions earlier (before you offered the 88 bars) about a mixed suspension setup (85 front, 88 rear). I now have a stock 85 front bar and stock 88 rear bar on the car. These bars are the same diameter and there is a too much oversteer for my liking. Actually kind of scary on higher speed corners. I am considering going with the 84-87 front bar to help the balance with the stock 88 rear bar. This car is a performance oriented daily driver. Can you recommend a good place to start for a front bar?
Let me start by saying that I have not installed a set of HHP bars on a mixed setup yet to know the best balance point. What suspension changes have you made other than the '88 swap? Is the swap stock? Front end is stock?
Also it would be well worth your time to check the suspension to make sure all is well (nothing is loose, shocks are not too warn, etc.) This could be causing the issue as well. Your alignment could also be doing it. I would start with that to make sure because from my measurements there should not be tons of oversteer from your bar setup. A little maybe, but not a lot.
If everything checks out okay,and you want to reduce or eliminate the oversteer using a sway bar, I recommend increasing the sway bar rate in the front. An Addco front bar produces about 160 lbs of force for 5 deg of twist and your '88 rear makes about 90 lbs at 5 degrees. That's what I would do if it were my car. Adding an Addco bar to the front would definately reduce oversteer (maybe too much but each car is a little different) and is the most cost effictive sway bar change.
Let me start by saying that I have not installed a set of HHP bars on a mixed setup yet to know the best balance point. What suspension changes have you made other than the '88 swap? Is the swap stock? Front end is stock?
Also it would be well worth your time to check the suspension to make sure all is well (nothing is loose, shocks are not too warn, etc.) This could be causing the issue as well. Your alignment could also be doing it. I would start with that to make sure because from my measurements there should not be tons of oversteer from your bar setup. A little maybe, but not a lot.
If everything checks out okay,and you want to reduce or eliminate the oversteer using a sway bar, I recommend increasing the sway bar rate in the front. An Addco front bar produces about 160 lbs of force for 5 deg of twist and your '88 rear makes about 90 lbs at 5 degrees. That's what I would do if it were my car. Adding an Addco bar to the front would definately reduce oversteer (maybe too much but each car is a little different) and is the most cost effictive sway bar change.
Hope that helps.
Helps alot. I thought about this thread late last night and was thinking I needed to give more info anyway.
4.9 swap done, minor weight added over stock V6, if any. In addition to the 88 cradle/suspension swap I have refreshed the entire suspension (new everything). Poly everything, no rubber left in car anywhere. Kyb Gas-a-just front, Gr2 rear, ST springs front (?? on spring rate), coilovers rear (350#), ball joints/tie-rod ends, and bearings. Approx 1.5" drop front, rear adjusted to 1.25" drop. I should probably start with another allignment. I'm not completely positive on that. If its off, its not by much. I do have some concerns with shock/strut and spring rate combo also. I don't mind a little oversteer but at the moment there is just a bit too much. A little can be quite fun.
Thank you Paul. You always seem to have great advise and tell it like it is. You seem to genuinely care more about helping people then just selling parts. That is a very rare trait nowadays.
Helps alot. I thought about this thread late last night and was thinking I needed to give more info anyway.
4.9 swap done, minor weight added over stock V6, if any. In addition to the 88 cradle/suspension swap I have refreshed the entire suspension (new everything). Poly everything, no rubber left in car anywhere. Kyb Gas-a-just front, Gr2 rear, ST springs front (?? on spring rate), coilovers rear (350#), ball joints/tie-rod ends, and bearings. Approx 1.5" drop front, rear adjusted to 1.25" drop. I should probably start with another allignment. I'm not completely positive on that. If its off, its not by much. I do have some concerns with shock/strut and spring rate combo also. I don't mind a little oversteer but at the moment there is just a bit too much. A little can be quite fun.
Thank you Paul. You always seem to have great advise and tell it like it is. You seem to genuinely care more about helping people then just selling parts. That is a very rare trait nowadays.
You have quite a few changes. The spring rates may be contributing to your oversteer (a stiffer rear than front spring) or you could have a stiffer rear shock than the front. I know that when I had Koni adjustables on all 4 corners, I needed to tune the rear at full stiff and front at full soft to make the car neutral. The same type of effect could produce oversteer as well. Considering you already have the money invested in a large amount of equipment, the Addco front bar would be your cheapest fix but may not balance it perfectly (or atleast perfect to the feel you want). It sounds like we agree on the analysis. So in summary..... Could try: 1. A stiffer front spring, 2. Softer rear spring (but may not be what you want with a heavier engine), 3. Stiffer front sway bar (recommended), 4. Softer rear bar, (not sure where you would find one) 5. Stiffer front shock/softer rear shock (again, without adjustables that might be tough to tune) 6. Temp fix ... tire inflation. Not mentioned before but can be used for performance events. Increase front and decrease rear tire pressure. Don't go too far. A dfference of 15 PSI would make a noticable difference. Not good for tire ware. Also, make sure you follow the tire manufacturers max and min rating.
You have quite a few changes. The spring rates may be contributing to your oversteer (a stiffer rear than front spring) or you could have a stiffer rear shock than the front. I know that when I had Koni adjustables on all 4 corners, I needed to tune the rear at full stiff and front at full soft to make the car neutral. The same type of effect could produce oversteer as well. Considering you already have the money invested in a large amount of equipment, the Addco front bar would be your cheapest fix but may not balance it perfectly (or atleast perfect to the feel you want). It sounds like we agree on the analysis. So in summary..... Could try: 1. A stiffer front spring, 2. Softer rear spring (but may not be what you want with a heavier engine), 3. Stiffer front sway bar (recommended), 4. Softer rear bar, (not sure where you would find one) 5. Stiffer front shock/softer rear shock (again, without adjustables that might be tough to tune) 6. Temp fix ... tire inflation. Not mentioned before but can be used for performance events. Increase front and decrease rear tire pressure. Don't go too far. A dfference of 15 PSI would make a noticable difference. Not good for tire ware. Also, make sure you follow the tire manufacturers max and min rating.
Just some additional thoughts.
Paul
Sounds like we are deffinately thinking along the same lines. Just an FYI. The shock/strut combo I am using is stiffer in the front. The springs are exactly opposite (hence my concern). So at the moment I have stiff shocks/soft spring in front, and soft shrut/stiff spring rear. I do have the matching set of front springs (400#) that came with my coilovers. They'll probably help but I ran into problems with how low the car is with them in. Maybe with some spacers they may work out. Also since I'm using coilover springs in rear I could just pick up a lower spring rate to match better with the ST springs. Probably the best way to go. Keep the stiffer springs for track days. They are a bit harsh for the street.
My other thought was the front bar. 88's use a larger bar in the front then the 84-87 use.
Sounds like I have a few compounding problems to work out before I know exactly how to handle this. Thanks again Paul for the advise.
I still have my eye on a set of these, but with the Canadian dollar being so poor, I'm looking at around 1000$ for a pair. Tough to justify spending that much on sway bars when I'm a student
.... I'm just having fun knowing others are enjoying my work.
