I just though of another way to explain it.........
A sway bar KIT is made up a LH arm, a bar, and a RH arm (plus hardware).
A FRONT sway bar KIT is adjustable with 3 positions to control how much anti-sway control is applied. - This can be done by changing the hole position in which the end link is bolted. A REAR sway bar KIT is adjustable with 6 positions to control how much anti-sway control is applied. - This can be done by changing the hole position in which the end link is bolted.
The entire RANGE of the FRONT sway bar KIT can be changed by changing the center bar. The entire RANGE of the REAR sway bar KIT can be changed by changing the center bar.
For background: I haven't yet started modifying the suspension in my Fiero. I don't yet feel that I understand vehicle dynamics and suspension well enough to modify anything...while I am an engineer like yourself, my degree is in Computer Engineering, which generally doesn't lead one to a vast knowledge of mechanics. I had always liked the look of your old bar, especially since the size matched the old Herb Adams rear bars, though I'm not sure if the actual rate was the same. I was always a little sad that I missed out on buying that bar when it went out of production.
I had been planning on doing the usual basic mods to my suspension this winter - Konis, poly, replace anything worn out, add the Addco bars. Life got in the way and it looks like it will be another winter before I get into that. It may have been a good thing given that you have just put new bars on the market.
But I digress. I just wanted to say that you have produced a beautiful looking product and I hope I can convince the management to allow me to purchase some. Of course, the fact that I need to learn how to properly utilize the bars is a significant factor as well. I enjoy spirited street driving on empty roads (well, as spirited as an automagic equipped Iron Duke Fiero can be) and I also AutoX my car at our local events. I am starting to collect the parts for a 4.9/4T60e swap. Perhaps I could be an example customer - i.e. you suggest what you think would work for a car like mine. It may help others. My inclination is towards a sport package, given that our roads go through vicious freeze/thaw cycles and tend to be potholed.
I am assuming that you want to go with one front kit and one rear kit. A sport front and rear would make an excellent choice. Keep in mind that my "old" bar was only 250# in the rear and matched up with an Addco front. The "Touring" bar (diagonal black line) is the equivelent of that now except that it can be adjusted through the range. If you want a slightly softer ride while retaining the front to rear balance, the "touring" front and rear would be fine. For AutoX you can set the rear bar stiff and for normal driving you could set the rear bar soft and use the stock front bar.
That would give you a decent ride (the car will still feel MUCH better than stock) and be able to be brought as high as 300# for AutoX.
It really depends on how stiff of a ride you want.
Also keep in mind that a sway bar has a decent feel on the highway no matter what the stiffness because when both wheels move up and down together, there is not force exerted by the bar.
I am assuming that you want to go with one front kit and one rear kit. A sport front and rear would make an excellent choice. Keep in mind that my "old" bar was only 250# in the rear and matched up with an Addco front. The "Touring" bar (diagonal black line) is the equivelent of that now except that it can be adjusted through the range. If you want a slightly softer ride while retaining the front to rear balance, the "touring" front and rear would be fine. For AutoX you can set the rear bar stiff and for normal driving you could set the rear bar soft and use the stock front bar.
That would give you a decent ride (the car will still feel MUCH better than stock) and be able to be brought as high as 300# for AutoX.
It really depends on how stiff of a ride you want.
Also keep in mind that a sway bar has a decent feel on the highway no matter what the stiffness because when both wheels move up and down together, there is not force exerted by the bar.
Have I been confusing yet?
Hi Paul,
Not confusing at all You confirmed what I had been thinking!
I just though of another way to explain it.........
Does this help?
Paul
I think changing the graph to have the rear bars different colors from the front bars would help. Everything else is clear, but (at least for me) my brain makes a false connection that the horizontal and diagonal lines of the same colors are together, and the others are not. Like I said before though, the product looks great and I'm looking forward to buying some. I don't know if you can do this, but I think it would be really great if you were able to supply a short video clip of each on a fiero, everything else being the same, to get a real-world idea of how much the kits help.
I wondered if the colors would throw people. I grouped the coloers together (ie. Blue Rear with the Blue Front) to show which bars could be used as sets.
Any color suggestions for the rear? A better way to present the graph? Thank you for the help so far.
I wondered if the colors would throw people. I grouped the coloers together (ie. Blue Rear with the Blue Front) to show which bars could be used as sets.
Any color suggestions for the rear? A better way to present the graph? Thank you for the help so far.
Paul
I did up a quick redo graph just to see what it would look like, here's the colors I used: - competition rear = orange - performance rear = yellow - sport rear = cyan - touring rear = purple At first I also went to group the crossing points or highlight them where each rear intersected with a front, but after the color change it seemed a little redundant and cluttered up the graph. Maybe it's one of those '3d picture' things where some people see it right away and others don't, maybe it's just how I'm used to seeing graphs and data. FierOmar's idea would work pretty well too, just a little more space.
I'll start working on some new graphs. I'll post them when I am done. I am going to start with seperate graphs for the front and the rear. Using the force on the Y axis of the graph it should be clear where to "balance" the car.
Also, I WILL be working on an '88 version of the bars offered now. I need to borrow a car and I have one lined up, but it is not available until early May. After that (no promises) it should take about 6 months to have a version worth testing. At some point I am probably going to need some help with this one. The car I am borrowing I can use for geometry and initial ballance. However I may need a volenteer to do a long term test on the bars. 1500 miles I think would be enough. I will repost when I get to that stage.
My concern is that this work will conflict with my IMSA project which I expect to take 8 months (constant lift time) to complete and I want it done for the 25th show in Detroit.
I'll start working on some new graphs. I'll post them when I am done. I am going to start with seperate graphs for the front and the rear. Using the force on the Y axis of the graph it should be clear where to "balance" the car.
Also, I WILL be working on an '88 version of the bars offered now. I need to borrow a car and I have one lined up, but it is not available until early May. After that (no promises) it should take about 6 months to have a version worth testing. At some point I am probably going to need some help with this one. The car I am borrowing I can use for geometry and initial ballance. However I may need a volenteer to do a long term test on the bars. 1500 miles I think would be enough. I will repost when I get to that stage.
My concern is that this work will conflict with my IMSA project which I expect to take 8 months (constant lift time) to complete and I want it done for the 25th show in Detroit.
Paul
Separate graphs will be easier for some. However, unless I am reading it wrong, the existing graph allowes me to mix and match the various bars as well as matching the front/rear balance on each individual set. Thus, I can find the ideal point for a set of competition bars, or I can determine that using a competition rear bar in position 4 in conjunction with a performance front bar in position 1 should balance the car. Likewise, a competition rear at 5 should balance with performance front at position 2.
The 88 rear sway bar already mounts to the rear of the cradle. However, as I recall, it is notched to allow for clearance for something. Might be an idea to mount it on blocks to avoid notching your bars, thereby allowing you to use the same bars as the early car. Connecting arms will need to be revised as the 88 brackets use the same bolts used to mount the strut to the spindle.
I guess maybe I've stared at the other too long, but I get the first one better anyway b/c it shows you where they are equal. That the first place anyone should START tuning them. Or for those like me that might be a little lazy, just leave it at those settings.
I agree, I like the other chart better. I think if you just had a one sentence blurb under the first chart in with your explanation saying it's possible to mix and match front and rear bars, that would be sufficient.
quote
There are 2 kits available, a front kit and a rear kit. For each kit you have your choice of 1 of 4 types of bar: Touring (black line), Sport (blue line), Performance (white line) and Competition (red line). The most suitable bars for a given use have already been paired together for your convenience, but it is possible to mix and match bars for a broader range of application.
The first graph is definitely better (took just a second to sort it out in my head) as a tool to determine what you need. The only other thing that could be close would be 4 graphs: each graph would represent a front (or rear) bar and would have all four of the other bars on it. They would look like the graph you have now but with fewer lines and it would be slightly more difficult to figure out which bars to mix and match. The thing that made me have to look for slightly longer is that the bars were color grouped by series (sport, touring, etc.) and not individual colors. Individual colors would have seperated the data quickly but would involve more cross-checking of the legend to figure out what is needed when you are combining in your head.
BTW... If any one is interested in purchasing one or a set and you email / PM me, please don't be put off if I don't respond the next day or so. I have been traveling on business almost every week and for Easter my family and I will be going south to visit may parents. I'll check PFF but not the email.
Not sure if this has been answered already, but, I do have a question/concern - judging from the pictures, it looks like the bar where the 'end links' attach are round. My concern is that due to this, the 'end link' could slip on the surface of the bar and as a result making it ineffective. Or is it that bar has a key or is keyed (or splined) so that there is no chance that the bar will rotate in the 'end link' when stress is put on the joint?
hope that make some sort of sense.
thanks, Tim
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 04-08-2007).]
Not sure if this has been answered already, but, I do have a question/concern - judging from the pictures, it looks like the bar where the 'end links' attach are round. My concern is that due to this, the 'end link' could slip on the surface of the bar and as a result making it ineffective. Or is it that bar has a key or is keyed (or splined) so that there is no chance that the bar will rotate in the 'end link' when stress is put on the joint?
hope that make some sort of sense.
thanks, Tim
Tim,
Good question. The bar has a 48 spline end. The bar ends cannot rotate on the bar. It is more than just a friction grip. It is an interlock between the two pieces with a bolt to keep it tight. Actually even if the bolt came off I would be surprised if something happened.
I definitely will be buying....just need to get the cash together and then figuring out with you which would be best for my arrangement. Looks like a great product!
R Runner: Do you have any info on the Addco REAR sway bar? I ask because I have an Addco rear bar and stock front bar on my Fiero. I'm looking to replace the front bar.
I would like a 88 rear bar when you get around to making them plan is to use a 88 rear on my 86gt with a northstar/5 speed have 88 cradle but someone grabed the bar before I got the car to strip
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
As you can imagine, R&D for these bars is expensive and time consuming. Without strong sales of the '84 to '87 bars, it makes it hard to justify (and fund) the development of the '88 version. So for now, I am putting the development of the '88 bars on hold. If it looks like there is more demand for the bars, I will pick up where I left off.
Currently I have a set of arms (front and rear) made. All that is required is timing to order the desired bar stiffness. The waiting period is short right now.
I can assure you that if you get a set of these bars, you will wonder how you ever managed to drive you car without them. Not just my opinion.
As someone who has a hybrid (pre-88 front, 8 rear), might I suggest to take a look at just an '88 rear bar? I think there may be a few of us out here.....
If you need a test subject, PM or email me. Car presently has no bar on the rear at the moment.................
Thank you for the offer. To develop a bar I need time (takes about 6 months), an '88 (with a decent relatively unmodified suspension) that I can use for the entire time and some extra money (the real kicker). It may take several attempts (as it did with these) to get the geometry right and get the righ front and rear bar combination. I'll do it at some point. You also have made 2 good points:
1. There may be a better market for the '88 2. What about hybrid cars like yours?
The hybrid would require both calculation (to get in the ball park) and a test car (for fine tuning).
At this point if I get some extra cash (possibly from selling bars) and an '88 I may give it a shot. I'll let you guys know when I start.
I picked up the bar from Paul (R Runner) today. Very professionally done, a first rate quality job on the bar links. My next step is to take off the other bar I bought from Paul and install this new adjustable one. The other bar is going on my sons 86 SE. That was a great product as well but not as good as this one.
Great job Paul I'm very impressed. I guess I'm going to have to buy the front bar now and put my Addco bar on my sons 86 SE.
Earl, I hope you enjoy it. I think you will be amazed that your car can handle even better than it did with the old bar. Installation should be a snap since the holes are already drilled.
Currently I have a front and rear set of arms made up. All I need to do is order the bar of choice for the next customer. Lead time right now is only the time it takes to get the bar (about 2 weeks).
to allow me to purchase some. Of course, the fact that I need to learn how to properly utilize the bars is a significant factor as well. I enjoy spirited street driving on empty roads (well, as spirited as an automagic equipped Iron Duke Fiero can be) and I also AutoX my car at our local events. I am starting to collect the parts for a 4.9/4T60e swap. Perhaps I could be an example customer - i.e. you suggest what you think would work for a car like mine. It may help others. My inclination is towards a sport package, given that our roads go through vicious freeze/thaw cycles and tend to be potholed.
