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Heavily Modded 3800SC 87 GT build Thread by daniel87fierogt
Started on: 02-17-2008 07:18 AM
Replies: 153 (17696 views)
Last post by: Tweeder on 02-28-2014 12:21 AM
daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-17-2008 07:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have owned my 87 GT since i was 14 years old and i decided that the 3800SC was a good place to start a build thread on my car. I bought my car 5 years ago as a bone stock 87 GT 5 spd. Below is a pic of what it looked like when i picked it up in Dayonta beach FL.

Me and my dad decided that we would completely rebuild it from the ground up.

On its way to the paint shop

After the paint

This is when it still had the stock 2.8 in it

I

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-17-2008 07:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is when i decided that it was time for a engine swap so one year ago i started looking on carparts.com and i found a 3800SC close to me that had 45,000 miles on it. So i went and picked it up. The engine came with everything but the PCM and wiring harness. It came out of a 99 buick regal. So i tore the motor down and had the short block completely rebuilt with ARP fasteners throught and clevite 77 bearings. I also had the shop port and polish the heads. They flowbenched the heads and they came out equivelent to the ZZP Stage 3 heads. Here are the pics as of tonight what we have got done on the motor. There is a list of mods also.
Speed Pro Moly Rings
Balance shaft removed
Rollermaster double roller timing set
XP cam (520" intake, 536" exhaust)
Comp Cams pushrods
Comp Cam modified retainers
Comp Cam valve locks
Pro magnum roller rockers
Comp cam OE-R lifters
ARP Head studs, main studs, rod bolts
Clevite 77 bearings
4 layer Cometic gaskets
ZZP Stage 3 heads
130lb springs
Ported Intake
balanced & blueprinted
ZZP Stage 2 Fullsize Intercooler
Ported intake
42lb Lucas injectors
Custom fuel rail
Autolite 103's
MSD wires
Triple Edge inlet and outlet ported M90
Northstar Throttlebody
3.0 - 2.55 Supercharger pulley
8 Rib Blower belt
85 mm Maff
4" CAI
Pacesetter Headers
3" madrel bent exhaust, hooker aero-chamber muffler
Custom PCM by Loyde at Fastfieros
5 Spd Getrag with Spec Stage 4 clutch





[This message has been edited by daniel87fierogt (edited 05-14-2008).]

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-17-2008 07:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post





Here are pics of the trunk while in progress of cutting the bottom out. We basically cut the back out and then folded the front section up into the trunk to make the flat floor all the way across now. More pics when i get it sealed up and re-carpeted.


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ignorant prodigy
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Report this Post02-17-2008 09:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ignorant prodigyClick Here to Email ignorant prodigySend a Private Message to ignorant prodigyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

do you have bigger valves for your ported heads.. if so what valves are you going with?

Friend of mine had the 130# springs with aftermarket valves and the valves failed.. creating all kinds of damage


Coming along excellent though.. I like the yellow

------------------

87GT
Massachusetts
ignorantprodigy@aol.com

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CTFieroGT87
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Report this Post02-17-2008 09:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CTFieroGT87Click Here to Email CTFieroGT87Send a Private Message to CTFieroGT87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I remember back when your dad was explaining how you'd go piece by piece through the engine bay making it look brand new. That was really awesome how you and your dad worked on it together back then and now with the new engine its going to be even better! Great thread.

------------------
Christian
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd, 88 suspension, C6 polished wheels, C5 Z06 brakes, Konis, poly'd, Spec Stg 3
Next Mod: LT1 fuel injection!
301rwhp/345rwtq
Stovebolt Powered!!!!!
06 Cobalt SS/SC w/ LSD (the slow DD)

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revin
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Report this Post02-17-2008 10:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I need a fuel rail like that...

ok I need an engine like THAT!!!!

looks like a screemer!

------------------

88 GT, 3800SC, Getrag 5sp. 12" Vette Rotors,Custom stuff done

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Fie Ro
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Report this Post02-17-2008 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fie RoClick Here to visit Fie Ro's HomePageClick Here to Email Fie RoSend a Private Message to Fie RoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

nice buildup !

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thismanyfieros
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Report this Post02-17-2008 11:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thismanyfierosClick Here to Email thismanyfierosSend a Private Message to thismanyfierosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

drool... nice job .....

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TD37
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Report this Post02-17-2008 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TD37Click Here to visit TD37's HomePageClick Here to Email TD37Send a Private Message to TD37Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wow, the car looks fantastic in yellow with those wheels. Nice engine work as well. That thing is pretty frickin' sweet...for a v6 car that is...jk jk NICE WORK!!!

-Tim

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kevin
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Report this Post02-17-2008 12:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kevinClick Here to Email kevinSend a Private Message to kevinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Damn sweet car!!

You say you are in California? What area? North or South? Are you still going to run the 5-speed? What process are you going to use to get it past the Smog Nazi's? Keep this thread going. I really enjoy the build-up...

Cordially,
Kevin

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-18-2008 03:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ignorant prodigy-I am using the stock size valves and they are the stock GM valves. I was going to upgrade to manley severe duty valves but then i decided that i am waiting for the ZZPerformance Stage 4 alluminum heads to come out so i didnt go to larger valves.

CTFieroGT87- wow i am really surprised that you remember i was the one who wanted every thing to look brand new. My dad is still helping me put the motor together.

Kevin- This motor is using the 5spd getrag and i have deleted just about every emissions device. I am located in southern cali. Just about 100 miles south of bakersfield. So either a hot smog or since i am making the 3800SC a complete plug and play i could just swap the 2.8 back into it for smog day. It only takes me few hours to pull the motor and replace it.
Thanks everybody for the great comments and the positive encouragement on the motor.

[This message has been edited by daniel87fierogt (edited 02-18-2008).]

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-20-2008 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I am going to be posting a bunch of pics on friday and saturday. We are going to be mating the engine and trans together and then mounting it on the cradle.

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Jncomutt
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Report this Post02-20-2008 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Did you have the block machined for the increased oiling efficiency? I hear there are issues with casting flashing in the front cover, and that the oil supply holes for the center mains are smaller than they should be.

What did you do to block of the oil supply after removing the balance shaft?

Build looks great!!

EDIT, can you please show install pics of how you plumb your intercooler?

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 02-20-2008).]

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-20-2008 06:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Jncomutt- Thats funny that you mention the oiling issue. When we had the front cover off we looked and we didnt see any casting flashing but the machine shop that assembled the shortblock told me that they did enlarge the main bearing oiling holes and they cleaned up some other oil gallery ports also. The removed the balance shaft myself before i took it down the the shop and then they drilled and tapped the oil hole. Yes i will be sure to take lots of pics of the intercooler install. I am using the same FMHE that Tampalinc is using on his Air to water setup. Its the upgraged FMHE for the 03-04 cobras. Its made by fluidyne and it has 3 cores with each core being 1 inch wide. We havent decided whether we are going to run the 3/4 copper IC lines down the middle of the car or if we are going to run them down the outside of the car. Most IC setups i have seen they have run the IC lines down the sides of the gas tank but we are thinking of running the lines down one rocker and the return coming up the other rocker. We will have to see what works out best when we get ready to do this.

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black88fiero
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Report this Post02-20-2008 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for black88fieroClick Here to Email black88fieroSend a Private Message to black88fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

nice build i just built one up a bit not as much...i am running a double roller timing.. chain i hope you bought a machined oil pump cover or youll have metal in your pan after the first minute of running..i can send you pics of mine that was install with a stock cover and it gouged it pretty bad.. but nice build car looks awesome in yellow

------------------
Parts for your FWD GM 97-07
Morad Parts Company
Moradpartscompany

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Jncomutt
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Report this Post02-21-2008 12:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Daniel, thanks for the intercooler information. I too am going to be running an A/W intercooler and I need something thats going be very efficient up front. I have a spearco 2-230 like FieroX is using on his turbo setup as well. I thought about using PVC for the main straight pipes, is it non-compatible with the coolent? Just wondering if you knew whether I had to run the copper IC lines or if a rubber/synthetic/plastic would work as well.

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brandon87gt
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Report this Post02-21-2008 01:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for brandon87gtClick Here to Email brandon87gtSend a Private Message to brandon87gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The pics aren't working for me and I'm interested in seeing the car Is it just me?

Edit : Pics started working after I posted that.

The car looks great! How much would you say you decreased the depth of the trunk by? Is it ridiculously small now?

[This message has been edited by brandon87gt (edited 02-21-2008).]

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-21-2008 02:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Black88fiero-Actually when we were intstalling the front timing cover we checked the clearance between the chain and the oil pump cover and i had ten thousandths of an inch of clearance. I read on club gp about people double gasketing or machining the cover and im kinda worried. Is ten thousands enough clearance because i really dont want to take that timing cover off to go get that machined down.

Jncomutt- you know to be totally honest i wouldnt think that the antifreeze would react badly with the PVC but who knows. Are you trying to use the PVC because of the ease of putting it together? Its pretty easy to braze the copper piping together with silver sodder. It only took me a couple of joints practicing to get the hang of brazing. I was just curious because the copper will dissipate alot more heat than PVC.

brandon87gt- Thanks for the complements. Taking out that bottom section is not too bad. You are really only taking about 1/3 of your trunk out and since it was so small down there i didnt really use it in the first place. To me there are alot more pros than cons to taking that bottom 1/3 out. There is tons more room to fit a large un restrictive exhaust in there and with my pacesetter headers i wanted to run 3 inch so i didnt want to cram my exhaust in there with tight bends. And also i dont have to raise the car near as high in the air to put the cradle in because of the trunk not being in the way now. Lots of people dont want to lose any trunk space because we already have so little but the car is not a daily driver for me so im fine with it.

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post02-21-2008 03:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

Daniel, thanks for the intercooler information. I too am going to be running an A/W intercooler and I need something thats going be very efficient up front. I have a spearco 2-230 like FieroX is using on his turbo setup as well. I thought about using PVC for the main straight pipes, is it non-compatible with the coolent? Just wondering if you knew whether I had to run the copper IC lines or if a rubber/synthetic/plastic would work as well.


For the lines going up front, I used 2 of the larger heater core lines from a few parts Fieros I had. They are the correct length, size and they fit up in channel like they where meant to be there. From where the lines end, I ran rubber hose to the IC/back and then the same up to the HE that is mounted infront of the condensor.

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Jncomutt
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Report this Post02-21-2008 11:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wow, what an obvious solution. Why reinvent the wheel? I'll see what I have for spare heater lines around here. Thanks!

------------------
--1984 3800sc/5speed
--352HP/358TQ

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black88fiero
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Report this Post02-21-2008 10:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for black88fieroClick Here to Email black88fieroSend a Private Message to black88fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i had clearance too. i checked with the pan off.. i assembled mine cranked it with the starter to check oil press.. then i was told that you dont need a timing chain dampner with a double roller so i took the front cover off to remove it and heres what i found:


so i bought a machined plate from http://www.prjperformance.com/
i dont trust a double gasket thats a weak point and a chance for a leak.. looks good so far

------------------
Parts for your FWD GM 97-07
Morad Parts Company
Moradpartscompany

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Jncomutt
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Report this Post02-21-2008 10:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The problem, I've read, is that the crank gear doesn't get pressed on far enough. If you look at the back side of the supplied lower gear, you will notice the chamfer is a lot smaller than the factory gear. This doesn't allow the gear to fully seat on the crank, which is why you see that pattern more aggressive at the bottom of the plate.

I machined my plate (and haven't ever checked on it), but if you aren't fully assembled yet, it might be best to check the clearance 'behind' the gear and see if it isn't seated back far enough on the crank.


(not my image)

That shows a stock gear, a machined gear, and then a RM gear as supplied.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 02-21-2008).]

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black88fiero
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Report this Post02-21-2008 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for black88fieroClick Here to Email black88fieroSend a Private Message to black88fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

mines already assembled and in the car and running with a machined plate

------------------
Parts for your FWD GM 97-07
Morad Parts Company
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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-22-2008 02:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Black88fiero-Well i agree with you that going double gaskets is the shoddy way of doing it and i wouldnt do it that way because of the more likely chance of getting a leak. How much are people taking off the oil pump cover? I thought i read somewhere that it was ten thousandths but im not sure. What i am worried about is that i have ten thousandths of clearance right now but after i start it up that crank gear might move or the chains deflection might be enough to make it rub that cover then.

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multmigs
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Report this Post02-22-2008 10:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for multmigsClick Here to Email multmigsSend a Private Message to multmigsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks great so far, I'm at the same point you are just about with my swap and I'm also using Pacesetter headers and have cut out my trunk like your pictures, I'm kinda confused as to how to build the exhaust though and I'm tryin to do it myself with various bends etc, also in 3" as u state, can you post some pictures of how you make yours, maybe what other size parts/pipes your using, I'm using a 3" in to dual 2.5" out spintech muffler and I have a 3" catcon but I'm not sure I wanna try to get it in there seems tight already...

Thanks!

Migs

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black88fiero
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Report this Post02-23-2008 12:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for black88fieroClick Here to Email black88fieroSend a Private Message to black88fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

not sure if it is right but a stock plate is .157 somthing and a machined plate was close to .115 i think, i measured it but for got what it was exactly. i see the difference on the gears.. manufactures are getting cheap aren't they cant even machine a darn gear right... daniel87fierogt who did you get your fuel rail from?

------------------
Parts for your FWD GM 97-07
Morad Parts Company
Moradpartscompany

[This message has been edited by black88fiero (edited 02-23-2008).]

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-23-2008 02:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

There was a guy on the forum here making these rails. He only made a couple of them i believe. I bought this one off someone here that bought it from the maker but then he ended up not using it. I got a really good deal on it and since i didnt want to buy the 400 dollar prj rails i saved alot. These look alot like skitimes rail that he designed for his 3800.

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post02-29-2008 05:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Some more pics of todays progress.






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Jncomutt
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Report this Post02-29-2008 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That thing looks awesome!

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whodeanie
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Report this Post02-29-2008 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for whodeanieClick Here to visit whodeanie's HomePageClick Here to Email whodeanieSend a Private Message to whodeanieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

nice build !

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post02-29-2008 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You might find that those fuel lines are going to situate the rubber right in the path of the blower belt, but I might be wrong depending on the angle I am seeing it from.

I hope you went with 1.7 rockers, as 1.6's would seem like a waste with that small cam you have.

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ignorant prodigy
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Report this Post02-29-2008 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ignorant prodigyClick Here to Email ignorant prodigySend a Private Message to ignorant prodigyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

since when is an xpcam a small cam?

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post03-01-2008 01:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Since you can run it on stock heads without any problems... Its small in the lift department, obviously the duration is significant, but just because zzp does not sell a cam inbetween the "max stock heads" and "max modded heads" does not mean there is not a middle road.

Intense happens to offer some very nice "light head work" cams out there, like the turbo stage 3/4 and blower stage 2/3.

There is plenty of lift left in a stock 3800 head, and if you have ported heads, why wouldnt you take advantage of the larger port size?

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post03-01-2008 02:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yeah i know i was thinking the same thing, since when is the XP cam a small cam? And no the fuel lines will not contact the supercharger belt. Why would you say that the comp cam rockers are a waste at stock 1.6 ratio. I dont ever have to worry about rocker failure or deflection with the 130lb springs. I didnt have the valve guides machined down. I am using modded retainers and the extra clearance viton valve seals. So i am good up to about .565" lift. With the 1.7 rockers and xp cam that would put me at .558" intake and .570" exhaust. I had the heads flowbenched after they were ported and polished and they still didnt flow that much more after .500" lift. Why stress the valvetrain more when that extra .030" lift isant going to make much of a difference. I was actually going to use the XPZ cam and get the heads clearanced for up to .600" but instead i went with the XP and im sure i will be over 350 whp with a good tune. Probably when the aluminum heads come out, i will switch to a bigger cam and go whipple or turbo.

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post03-01-2008 02:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i dont like the deflection excuse that the rocker manufactures parade around, but I do agree that it is similar to taking the weight of a piston out of the rotating assembly, inherently increasing horsepower by at least %1.

heads flow alot different when boost is applied, I rarely see heads flowtested by pushing air through them, most benches pull air through the valves.

My secret setup involves a VS cam and 1.7 rockers. It makes for cake tuning, and really maxes out the stock lift heads.

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post03-01-2008 03:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Actually its not comp cams that say that stock rockers have rocker deflection but ZZP has a couple articles on there site saying that in there testing they have seen up to .020-.040 lost to rocker deflection. So i dont know but ZZP does do alot of R&D. I wasent aware that there would be a difference in the way the air is either pushed or pulled through the heads. If i would have went with the VS cam then i would have went with 1.7 rockers.

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post05-20-2008 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Some more updates and pictures tomorow night. We are going to be reinstalling the fuel tank with the new walbro 255 and running the intercooler piping and i can also provide pics of the relocation of the slave cylinder to clear the header crossover.

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post06-02-2008 10:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I just recieved my new idler and tensioner pulleys from nate herbst and the 8 groove powerbond harmonic ballancer from ZZP so progress is moving along. I got the tank reinstalled but havent got the intercooler piping soddered up yet.

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D2inDFW
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Report this Post07-18-2008 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D2inDFWClick Here to visit D2inDFW's HomePageClick Here to Email D2inDFWSend a Private Message to D2inDFWEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Daniel:

Very nice! Hope to see the finished product when I am in Tehachapi for the Thunder on the Mountain Car Show! Will you and the car be there?

Regards,

David

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daniel87fierogt
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Report this Post07-18-2008 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

David,
Thats funny that you mention the car show because i just found out about it a couple of days ago. I wish the car was done so i could have it in the car show but its a no go for the car this year. I really want to go myself because there is 10 spots reserved for fieros so there should be atleast a few fieros there to see. The car wont even make it to this years Coast Run either because i am in a fire academy and the day of the coast run is a mandatory Ventilation day so i cant go. But next year the car will be ready for the West fest and the coast run. I was also thinking about bringing the car out to texas to do one of the events that you guys do out there. We will see how things end up. Thanks for the complements though.

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