I needed to bleed the brakes, and promptly sheared off the bleed screw. Tried extractor (broke it), welding a nut to it (broke the weld) and I've finally thrown up my hands in frustration.
So...I'd like to swap with Grand Am parts.
In the reading that I've done, this SHOULD be a direct swap - calipers, rotors, pads - is that accurate?
If that is the case, does the attached shopping list from Rock Auto make sense? Are these the correct parts?
I need NON performance parts, correct?
I know that I lose the e-brake. Not really a concern, I plan on keeping the old calipers for inspections.
And, yes, the eventual plan is to do the fronts, too, but right now I need to make the car so that it can stop if I make it move.
Originally posted by ArthurPeale: I needed to bleed the brakes, and promptly sheared off the bleed screw. Tried extractor (broke it), welding a nut to it (broke the weld) and I've finally thrown up my hands in frustration.
So...I'd like to swap with Grand Am parts.
In the reading that I've done, this SHOULD be a direct swap - calipers, rotors, pads - is that accurate?
If that is the case, does the attached shopping list from Rock Auto make sense? Are these the correct parts?
I need NON performance parts, correct?
I know that I lose the e-brake. Not really a concern, I plan on keeping the old calipers for inspections.
And, yes, the eventual plan is to do the fronts, too, but right now I need to make the car so that it can stop if I make it move. <Link Deleted>
Keep reading. Hype from TFS and others pushing this crap "Upgrade" are dangerous.
Grand Am Brake "Upgrade" is NOT an "Upgrade" of any kind to drive on any street and Worse, doing as "Rear only" can Kill you when you spin out on the highway etc. Any larger pistons on rear axle will have same problem.
Is Illegal to remove P-Brake and when you crash w/ illegal brakes or other parts then often have much worse problems then failing inspection or getting tickets. If you survive, expect to need lawyers as others can, often will, sue you. Even if you die, your family etc can get sued too. When others find you have crap Illegal "upgrades" expect to lose the case. Car Insurance can void any policy for this and if they don't, your "state minimum" policy won't pay enough.
If Fiero rears are good then buy bleeder repair "kits" or other ways to fit them. most rear have other problems and need replacing whole caliper. See my Cave, Rear Brakes and rest of brake section.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Originally posted by ArthurPeale: Do you have links for people who have had problems? That's one thing my searching didn't turn up.
Didn't look very long or didn't read search results or just search w/ poor terms... try google etc w/ site:www.fiero.nl after whatever terms. Can add date ranges and more there.
"Grand am brake up now terrible vibration" Started on: 02-01-2021 08:50 PM https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/144804.html is only a recent one. And that's reading tech post tittles this month, not searching by PFF etc.
Many GA "upgrade" pages likely have this... See my Cave, Brake Upgrade w/ many highlights but doesn't list all problems. Rear Only install is shown there. See "Can I use GA or Seville to upgrade the rear brakes only?"
Other "upgrades" w/ parts made for other cars often have problems because uses same cut down front "hub" etc but fewer use them so not covered by "name" in the cave page.
I will say that for a braking system to work properly, all components must be matched to work together. Whether the Grand Am brake swap is dangerous is debatable, but when one item changes in the system it most likely has an affect on the others. You see loads of brake swaps on Fieros. A common one is the Corvette upgrade. I would say that if ALL brake components are changed to Corvette items that would be an improvement but people are using aluminum brackets to mount them. Not sold on aluminum relocation brackets.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Changing only the rear to the GA will adversely affect the brake balance.
It will not perform well.
Do all of them (and with the larger bore master cylinder) or fix the stock system.
Ogre also raises the legal aspects, which bear consideration.
With all the talk about brake upgrades going on, most don't realize that a properly functioning stock Fiero brake system provides plenty of brake action. IMO, complaints come from the fact that some have worn 30+ yr old systems that give decreased braking action. I even know a few owners still driving with 30 yer old brake fluid in the system. If hoses, master, wheel cylinders and pads are replaced with high quality items, braking action will be good enough to lock up the wheels. Some owners never replaced braking components and are driving with 30 year old parts.. Flushing and bleeding the lines with new DOT fluid is recommended preventative maintenance. If not done then optimum results cannot be expected I replaced my old MC with an AC/Delco unit and that alone made a big difference. Before that we added new hoses and rebuilt wheel cylinders. My only mod was the S-10 brake booster which just makes for easier pedal action. Car stops great.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Water is really the best hydraulic fluid... except for the corrosive aspects of it... But yeah on cars and bikes for some reason nobody ever flushes or changes the brake fluid. It turns black and sludgy and then clogs the tubes. Stock Fiero brakes with stock wheel sizes is more than enough. Unless you are doing track days or some sort of racing there is no real need to "upgrade". What i see here is most people want bigger wheels to fill out their wheel wells and then they want big rotors so that there is something to look at behind said wheel. I have never once heard of someone with properly functioning Fiero brakes say "oh i had too much fade when driving to the store" or "oh i could shave 5/10th off of my commute if only my brakes did not fade out through the parking lot"
[This message has been edited by skywurz (edited 03-01-2021).]
Remember the Fiero was designed when 55 mph was the national speed limit. Now it isn't uncommon to be passed while doing 80. Add heavy than stock stereo, interior, body kit, wheels/tires, and the elevated travel speeds and it is easy to find yourself in some scary situations.
You don't need a brake upgrade to cruise town, but exceptional brakes is one thing that once you have experienced, you are never happy with stock again.
Grand Am upgrade in the back only is a very bad idea.
My speedometer maxes out at 85. 80 takes a bit of a rollout to get to. I treat it like im driving a fully loaded semi if it took me that long to get to 80 its sure as heck going to take some time getting back down
Remember the Fiero was designed when 55 mph was the national speed limit. Now it isn't uncommon to be passed while doing 80. Add heavy than stock stereo, interior, body kit, wheels/tires, and the elevated travel speeds and it is easy to find yourself in some scary situations.
You don't need a brake upgrade to cruise town, but exceptional brakes is one thing that once you have experienced, you are never happy with stock again.
Grand Am upgrade in the back only is a very bad idea.
Guru I find all of the proposed brake upgrades perplexing. It seems that everyone has an idea of something that will improve braking on Fieros. What are your thoughts on this issue?
I needed to bleed the brakes, and promptly sheared off the bleed screw. Tried extractor (broke it), welding a nut to it (broke the weld) and I've finally thrown up my hands in frustration.
So...I'd like to swap with Grand Am parts.
In the reading that I've done, this SHOULD be a direct swap - calipers, rotors, pads - is that accurate?
Arthur, as you can see there are a lot of opinions on Brakes for Fieros so can I make a suggestion? If you aren't going racing stick, with the original system and repair or replace the broken caliper. Yep, it'll be more expensive but the parts are still available. The Fiero Store is only 90 minutes south of you on I-91. Call TFS, order 2 calipers, pads, & glide pins for the rear, left and right. Take your old ones off, put 'em in a box, and take it to them. You wind up with rebuilt calipers, new pads and hardware without all the problems of having to change the entire system to get proper brake bias.
If you want a little better performance, choose a performance pad (I like Wagner Thermoquiet pads) and consider installing the S10 vacuum booster upgrade. (Check the archives.)
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I even know a few owners still driving with 30 year old brake fluid in the system.
quote
Originally posted by dremu: Given the hygroscopic nature of brake fluid, at that point I think it's a mixture of 50% brake fluid and 50% water
Doesn't take many years to "Water Down" Brake Fluid. If tank/bottle left open or the cap leaks can pull water from air in hours to a few day to boil ~ same as water.
I plan to flush my Fiero this spring because true Wet Boil is very low. Lower the DOT3 spec but system has DOT4 since ~ 2K and completely restore the system ~ 10 years ago. And now only drive 1000-2000 mile per year.
How to you know? I have a tester that actually heats a sample. Most shops don't have them so unlikely to find them or any other fluid test if you're trying to call around. Cheap electronic testers that doesn't heat sold by many including auto part stores often don't work or last 1 or 3 test then fluid gets inside and "eat" the board. Don't trust them. "Paper" Test Strips have problems too. How To Test Your Brake Fluid Correctly by Bendix Brakes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWPkedgHnrA
Made by Alba Tools Ltd under Uk patent 2298928b but US patent showing how the tester works. Now sold thru OTC and few others worldwide. (US Patents are Pubic Records, Not so in other counties.) https://patentimages.storag...148708/US5814721.pdf Many have newer versions but same operation.
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: Arthur, as you can see there are a lot of opinions on Brakes for Fieros so can I make a suggestion? If you aren't going racing stick, with the original system and repair or replace the broken caliper. Yep, it'll be more expensive but the parts are still available. The Fiero Store is only 90 minutes south of you on I-91. Call TFS, order 2 calipers, pads, & glide pins for the rear, left and right. Take your old ones off, put 'em in a box, and take it to them. You wind up with rebuilt calipers, new pads and hardware without all the problems of having to change the entire system to get proper brake bias.
If you want a little better performance, choose a performance pad (I like Wagner Thermoquiet pads) and consider installing the S10 vacuum booster upgrade. (Check the archives.)
Good luck.
If you replacing Stock brake w/ same... Better use AZ or others w/ Good Warranty and Back them up. Lifetime Warranty w/ AZ is very easy to get anywhere and just use a Phone# to return so when you lose a receipt isn't a problem. Many "rebuild" parts have problems right out of the box and may need to return. Do not return cores until the job is done for same reason. Many stores will take returns from online too. Example: Order Adanvce Auto Online then return cores etc to local store. You get many discounts doing that too and not like RA 5% but 10% - 20% very often and free shipping > x$. (If you use NoScript etc then use another profile or browser so pages will load completely to see many discounts etc.)
⚠️ Warning: Do Not buy "Brake Upgrades" From TFS. TFS is Not a "Friend" to anyone including the "Fiero world."
Better pads like Wagner TQ is available for stock Fiero and works well. I and others use them on every vehicle not just Fiero.
Originally posted by Daryl M: Guru I find all of the proposed brake upgrades perplexing. It seems that everyone has an idea of something that will improve braking on Fieros. What are your thoughts on this issue?
The order you should proceed: Exceptional tires (200 or less tread wear, summer only tires), good brake pads (Wagner TQ left me woefully disappointed), increase braking force.
If you don't have a very in depth understanding of the Fiero brake system, able to analyze the proposed changes, and calculate their impact on clamp force, braking mechanical leverage, and F/R bias, then you should not be mixing and matching any brake components. Likewise anyone trying to sell you an upgrade, should be able to explain exactly what the upgrade does and does not do with math... if they can't, then consider it the same as taking you engine to your local bakery for a rebuild.
The Fiero brake system is very different than just about every other car in regards to how the front/rear brake bias is created. Most other cars on the road (especially any performance cars) use smaller caliper pistons in the rear (even smaller than the fiero rear calipers) to establish the front/rear bias. The Fiero uses the combo valve to reduce rear line pressure to calipers that are the same size front and rear (I posted the actual line pressures at various pedal forces in another thread). Based on these fundamental differences, the majority of people have a greater chance of ending up with an overall less effective brake system by swapping calipers unless you are very knowledgeable and methodical in your selections.
Too much front bias will lead to early lockup or overheating of the front tires under continual hard braking. Too much rear bias will lead to locking up the rear tires, which becomes very unstable and the rear will fishtail side to side. For most people, keeping the bias front/rear close to stock should be the goal. This means you have to keep the caliper piston diameters close to the same front/rear.
In my opinion most people will have better success keeping the Fiero brake system hydraulics stock and by going after the gains by using larger diameter rotors. Just like using a breaker bar allows you to either apply more torque to the bolt or use less force to loosen the bolt, moving the caliper further from the centerline of the wheel bearing does the same thing with the frictional force of the caliper pads (less pedal pressure to stop at the same rate, or able to stop at a faster rate as long as the tires are up to the task). Use a larger rotor but with stock thickness to keep weight minimized. This will keep the brake bias stock, retain factory parking brake function, keep weight gain minimized, and keep the overall cost of the upgrade minimized.
Just curious, why did Wagner TQ leave you woefully disappointed? I've had good experience with wear, dusting, and feel but I don't do any really spirited driving either.
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: Just curious, why did Wagner TQ leave you woefully disappointed? I've had good experience with wear, dusting, and feel but I don't do any really spirited driving either.
Pad material is soft, so the pedal wasn't as firm, excessive brake dust (especially given the moderate stopping performance), initial bite and overall grip not on par with other brake pads I have ran. They are fine for a cruiser, but not for anything performance related. EBC yellow stuff is a much, much better pad, but significantly more expensive and it still dusts more than I like.
I *was* just trying to do this so I could use it as a grocery-getter around town, in a cost effective manner (looks like about $60 altogether), but I'd rather be able to stop.
So, the goal is now to rebuild the calipers. I gave them to a machinest friend to remove the bleed screws, if possible.
I'm not sure which of these would be the better choice, even though one has more pieces than the other.
Do either of these have the caliper slide bushings? It's hard for me to tell.
The Carlson kit looks like it has the bushings. It also appears to have the plastic 2-way valve for the caliper so I'd go for this one. Replace or make sure you thoroughly clean the existing caliper guide pins. Removing any excess grease or dirt from when they were inside the caliper. Coat the pins in a layer of the high temperature brake grease and re-insert the pins back into the caliper housing.
Neither above has slider "bushing." Nearly all Piston "rebuild" kits never has them.
Dorman and others has slider "bushings" aka o-rings. I think Dorman has box of 10+ and cheaper then blister pack of 2 or 4.
I was eyeballing the ten pack, but didn't want to bother getting them if the kit already came with them.
What about the ebrake hardware? On a previous purchase, the rebuilt caliper came with all new hardware. I can strip down and replate what I've got, but if there's an out-of-the-box solution that's reasonable, I'd rather go that route.
Check The Fiero Store. They have e-brake springs, cables, & levers. There's also a Caliper Boot Kit that includes new caliper bolt boots, brake pad clips and slider seals. (I know some folks aren't enamored with TFS but I've had pretty good luck with them. Shipping costs to Australia, however, are way too expensive.)
BTW, I have no financial stake and get no benefit from recommending you check TFS. I'm just sharing my experience.
Check The Fiero Store. They have e-brake springs, cables, & levers. There's also a Caliper Boot Kit that includes new caliper bolt boots, brake pad clips and slider seals. (I know some folks aren't enamored with TFS but I've had pretty good luck with them. Shipping costs to Australia, however, are way too expensive.)
BTW, I have no financial stake and get no benefit from recommending you check TFS. I'm just sharing my experience.
I think The Fiero Store is a great resource. But, I've also discovered that with some looking, I can find the exact item for significantly less.
I've definitely got some specialty parts for which I'll be needing them in the future, but - well, let's take a rear caliper, for example. I don't relish paying nearly double getting it through them. This is a budget build.
80 takes a bit of a rollout to get to. I treat it like im driving a fully loaded semi if it took me that long to get to 80 its sure as heck going to take some time getting back down 
