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Upgrade! 86 GT with LS4 and 4T65E swap by JC86GT
Started on: 02-24-2021 05:53 AM
Replies: 30 (1017 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 02-03-2022 05:31 PM
JC86GT
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Report this Post02-24-2021 05:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is my first post, but I've been lurking and researching this site for a couple months now. I'll give a little backstory to this project before I get into what I'm planning.

20 years ago I bought a 1984 Red notchie with the 4-banger. Loved the car, painted it bright yellow, rebuilt the engine, and after a couple years of owning it, someone turned in front of me and totaled it out. Life goes on and I never was able to get another due to having kids and not being able to squeeze the family in one.

Kids all grown now, got grandkids even, so I'm looking for a new project and a couple months ago I came across an 86 GT, black, V6 auto but the engine has slung a rod. I picked it up with the intention to put a supercharged 3800 in it. The problem is that there aren't many around my area that people aren't wanting over $2500 for the whole car so I was losing hope in finding something local to me that I could at least verify it ran.

Last week I was performing my normal search for either an engine or a donor car and came across a 2006 GXP with the 5.3 LS4 and 4T65E-HD but the trans was slipping. I started researching the LS4 swap and I believe I can do it with a little help from the search feature or the guys in this forum. I'll incorporate my sons and grandsons help of course, and who knows maybe one of them will inherit it one day!

So I got the GXP late last week and began researching all the mods I want to do the engine, trans, and the car. Here's a short list of planned work to the car:
DOD and AFM delete
Camshaft and spring upgrade
Mild cylinder head porting/clean up
Intake manifold upgrade
Wiring harness cleanup/reroute/hide
Transmission rebuild and upgrade weak points; install shift kit
Upgrade Torque Converter and install external trans cooler
Upgrade radiator
Upgrade fuel pump and fuel injectors

I'm looking at the Texas Speed Stage 2 cam- 212/218 .550/550 camshaft and beehive springs. With the other work I'm planning I'm shooting for 400-425HP.

So, I know this won't be a project I finish overnight and I plan on doing as much of it in-house as I can. I've seen multiple project builds on here start off great and lose steam as the project drags on too long, so my goal is to have the car back on the road running by the end of 2021 so I don't lose steam on it, but that just depends on what life throws at me next year; we had two major Hurricanes in 2020 that we're still recovering from so I'm hoping 2021 is going to be better!

I'm going to try to take pics along the way and post regular weekly updates and will be looking for the members of this forum to provide advice along the way if you see me going down the wrong path.

And with that, here's a pic of the donor car and in the background is my dust-covered GT. GT, meet GXP. Next step- remove the engine/trans from the GXP!

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Report this Post02-24-2021 11:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JC86GT:

And with that, here's a pic of the donor car and in the background is my dust-covered GT. GT, meet GXP. Next step- remove the engine/trans from the GXP!


I hope you post lots of pics and info. That is where I failed in my swap. You will basically be documenting or authoring your own shop manual for future reference.
The LS4 was a fun swap and a BLAST to drive. I have said many times that I wanted the sound of the LS v8 more than any other benefit from the swap.

The GXP had the Tap Shift option, did you get that with this car?
Have fun, be safe.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-24-2021).]

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JC86GT
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Report this Post02-25-2021 12:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes; the car has the tapshift option. I'm not too sure about using it in the GT though; I've read it's a potential weak point using it because GM really didn't build the transmission properly for shifting manually, but I still need to research that some more. The car also has the HUD, which I'd love to figure out how to put that in the GT... would likely require a complete dash upgrade, which is something I'm interested in, but for now, my focus is getting the engine/trans in the car and running. After that, who knows.

So far, I've not been able to even mess with it because I'm stuck on nights at my job, but that should end soon and I can start turning wrenches. The cam I've selected is a Scoggin Dickey SDR55308 with 204/222 duration and 551/570 lift and a 112 LSA, which requires a beefier spring kit. On a 5.3 truck motor, it made 430 HP and 426 TQ, so with my car intake (unknown right now what to use) should get me around 415-420 HP. I think 42lb injectors should get me enough fuel for that power range, but again, more research needed there. I'd love to get a FAST LSXR intake, but I don't have any spare body parts to sell to afford that right now. I know I'll have to modify my valley cover to facilitate a different intake manifold, but that will be easy. Just trying to find something I can afford and will fit under the deck.

I will likely do some Youtube videos as well, as I know pictures just don't capture everything.

I guess one big question I'm trying to answer is do I want to have someone else program the PCM, or just get HP tuners and do it myself and then have it for tuning later. This is my first foray into modern computer controlled engines really, always just done old school with carburetors, so I've got to educate myself some more on that stuff too.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post02-25-2021 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you have the paddle shift option you will most likely have to retain most of the drive by wire features of the original PCM. I've never done this swap so Fieroguru might have a better answer.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Report this Post02-25-2021 01:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you haven't bought your DoD Delete stuff yet, LSXceleration ( https://www.lsxceleration.com/ ) is where I bought a lot of my parts from. They were really great to work with. I hard ordered a number of other things, including one of their full "replacement seal" sets. They called me and said "Hey, you know between the DoD delete and the kit you bought, you would have wound up with two of <item, item, item>, so we're taking the cost of those off your bill and refunding it."

They also didn't have something in stock (I don't recall what right now), so they gave me a free upgrade to the compcams version of it (so maybe it was valve springs?)

Anyhow. Really pleasant people to work with. I had called them on a number of occasions with questions, and even when they could have upsold me, they took time to understand my project and power goals, and would make a good recommendation.

They also have a fantastic trunion upgrade kit that my builder strongly recommended. Let me know if you need any part numbers!
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JC86GT
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Report this Post02-25-2021 09:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the tips! I haven't bought anything yet. I'm researching what parts I believe I will need. Some folks just buy what looks good or what other builds used; I'm a lot more analytical in selecting my parts to ensure they work with one another so I'm taking my time.
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JC86GT
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Report this Post02-25-2021 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

JC86GT

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quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

They also have a fantastic trunion upgrade kit that my builder strongly recommended. Let me know if you need any part numbers!


Let's see them part numbers!
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Report this Post02-25-2021 10:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You got it!

Here is the "important stuff" -- I got other stuff, like clevite coated bearings and such, but that's easier to find.

Dual valve spring kit with tool steel retainers - 80540K1TS

Gen IV LS DOD/AFM Delete Kit - DOD-Delete (yes, that is their sku, when it comes up, they have a LOT of options to customize exactly what you want. I got all sorts of goodies with mine). Things I tacked on:
16 (full set) COMP #850-16 Lifters
ARP Replacement Head Bolts
Valley Cover w/o PCV 12598832
Intake/Exhaust gaskets
GM Crankshaft bolt 12557840

LS Rocker Arm Trunnion Upgrade Kit 713702-KIT

GM LS Lower Gasket Set CS5975A

I appreciate wanting to buy the highest quality one can afford. That's how I do it too. I ask all sorts of questions and do a lot of reading, then ask people I trust for their opinion (FieroGuru is super awesome and patient with all the stuff I've asked him over the years).

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 02-25-2021).]

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JC86GT
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Report this Post02-25-2021 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Valley Cover w/o PCV 12598832

I appreciate wanting to buy the highest quality one can afford. That's how I do it too. I ask all sorts of questions and do a lot of reading, then ask people I trust for their opinion (FieroGuru is super awesome and patient with all the stuff I've asked him over the years).



Appreciate the info; already checked out their DOD delete and will save me a few bucks over the one I was looking it with similar options.

On that Valley cover w/o PCV, I just started researching it, but how do you vent the crankcase w/o the one on the valley cover?
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Report this Post02-26-2021 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That is a great question and one I can't answer! lol

When I asked Mike (the guy doing all of the hard work on my build) if I should get one with or without it, he said without. I didn't think to ask him why. I am running a turbo too, not sure how that plays in. I will ask him next time I talk to him (either tonight or tomorrow) and let you know!
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Report this Post02-28-2021 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an answer for you!

Mike said he is going to be setting up an oil catch can for me. We will run plumbing from the valve covers to the catch can, and use the same check-ball/valve system he setup on his catch can in his turbo Buick. So when under boost or vacuum, it'll behave properly.

I might have forgotten a detail or two, he told that to me 14 hours ago when I was out there. So that is the broad strokes.
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Report this Post02-28-2021 08:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Within the LS engine family, some use the PCV in/out through the valve covers, some use in/out between valley and valve covers.

The LS4 has a sealed valley cover and has the PCV inlet on one valve cover and the outlet on the other valve cover. If you want to keep the PCV system stock on the LS4, it should not have the vented valley cover.
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Report this Post02-28-2021 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, good to know about the unvented valley cover; haven't gotten off these nights yet so I'm still researching stuff. After a solid week of searching I got lucky and scored a used LS6 intake with fuel rails and injectors off Ebay. Unfortunately the seller didn't know what size the injectors were so I'll have to figure that out once I get the manifold. I believe the TB port is 78mm and I've read that should be plenty for what kind of power I'm looking to make.

Fieroguru; your swap posts here and on LS1Tech have helped me tremendously. Thank you for posting your work. I intend to focus my posts more on the engine/trans work I'm doing since most of the car/cradle stuff is already well documented. I am currently researching the electrical portion of the project; one thing I would say is not my strong suit when it comes to this project, but I know a little about a little and think I can figure it out with help from the forums. I intend to purchase HP Tuners and will do all my own ECM programming, so any direction on that will be helpful to knowing what to disable other than VATS and what to set up. I know I'll have some tuning to do, which is what prompted me to purchase HP Tuners instead of having someone program the ECM for me, plus I like to learn new stuff and tweak the system along the way, much like changing carburetor jets and distributor timing, just using a keyboard now.

My research has also yielded that I need to upgrade my MAF. Further research yielded information about 'strong' and 'weak' MAF sensors, so I'll be sure to get a strong one.

The various forum posts over the years from people like Fieroguru are so vital to projects like mine. I would not even attempt this, or think it possible without these posts. Each swap/upgrade has something new to share and learn from; that's why it's important to have more than one that documents what was learned along the way.

Thanks guys; keep the input coming!
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Report this Post02-28-2021 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

JC86GT

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quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

I have an answer for you!

Mike said he is going to be setting up an oil catch can for me. We will run plumbing from the valve covers to the catch can, and use the same check-ball/valve system he setup on his catch can in his turbo Buick. So when under boost or vacuum, it'll behave properly.

I might have forgotten a detail or two, he told that to me 14 hours ago when I was out there. So that is the broad strokes.


Thanks Trinten; I researched it a little last night but didn't find a whole lot and then got side tracked. Once I get to turning wrenches I'll confirm what mine has and will probably go with an aftermarket catch can.
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Report this Post02-28-2021 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

JC86GT

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Fieroguru - I noticed your LS(X) COOLANT HOUSING on your website; how's that coming? Looks interesting for my swap....
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Report this Post03-01-2021 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JC86GT:
Fieroguru; your swap posts here and on LS1Tech have helped me tremendously. Thank you for posting your work. I intend to focus my posts more on the engine/trans work I'm doing since most of the car/cradle stuff is already well documented. I am currently researching the electrical portion of the project; one thing I would say is not my strong suit when it comes to this project, but I know a little about a little and think I can figure it out with help from the forums. I intend to purchase HP Tuners and will do all my own ECM programming, so any direction on that will be helpful to knowing what to disable other than VATS and what to set up. I know I'll have some tuning to do, which is what prompted me to purchase HP Tuners instead of having someone program the ECM for me, plus I like to learn new stuff and tweak the system along the way, much like changing carburetor jets and distributor timing, just using a keyboard now.


I am glad that my contributions have been helpful to so many!

The first step with ecm tuning is a very good understanding of how the engine works, what the sensors and components do and how any changes you make from stock will alter the needs for air, fuel, timing, etc. After that, it helps if you detail out all the changes you plan to make and look for the various tables within HP Tuners that might be impacted. When you swap stock GM Parts for stock GM parts, you can oftentimes find other ecm calibrations with the needed data for your tune and you can copy/paste it over to get it close. After that having the wideband providing an input to the ecm for logging purposed helps a bunch.

Page 16 of my build thread in the construction zone I detailed all the base tune changes as well as all the DTCs I turned off. Once you get past the base tune, it all about giving the engine what it likes, not what you think it should need.


 
quote
Originally posted by JC86GT:
Fieroguru - I noticed your LS(X) COOLANT HOUSING on your website; how's that coming? Looks interesting for my swap....



They were working on the CNC programming last week as I was answering some questions. The first 2 will likely be done this week, but then I still have to make the cross tubes and the inlet nipple. The first production run of 15 will be 2-3 weeks after the prototypes are done.

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Report this Post03-03-2021 11:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BMTFIEROSend a Private Message to BMTFIEROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am looking forward to this.
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JC86GT
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Report this Post03-05-2021 02:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
BMTFiero- I'm not far from you...I'm in Orange
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JC86GT
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Report this Post03-13-2021 04:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Finally got some work done. Engine and trans is out of the GXP and separated. Time to order some parts!
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Report this Post03-20-2021 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My grandson came over a few days ago and started helping me. He's 12 and willing to learn so I'm going to give him some education about engines and this project. We got the engine torn apart today and will be porting the heads tomorrow while we're awaiting parts. More to come...[img]http://images .fieroforum.com/userimages/JC86GT/20210320_162417.jpg[/img]
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Report this Post03-22-2021 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Broken image link in your post

 
quote
Originally posted by JC86GT:

http://images.fieroforum.co.../20210320_162417.jpg



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Report this Post04-14-2021 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Been a few weeks since I last posted; been awaiting parts, cleaning parts, porting cylinder heads, etc. Waiting on Fieroguru to get back from vacation so I can get one of his multi-port oil bypass plates so I can relocate the oil pressure sender down by the oil filter. Once I've got a little more to share, I'll post some pics of the progress.
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Report this Post04-14-2021 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
FieroGuru came up with a solution that moved the oil pressure sensor off of the valley pan??
How on earth did I miss that... we found an adapter that turns 90 degrees to try to give the room needed to connect the sensor and clear the aftermarket throttle body.

If you have a link to the area of his build thread where he goes over this, I would appreciate it. I may have to get in line after you for this!!
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Report this Post04-14-2021 06:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

FieroGuru came up with a solution that moved the oil pressure sensor off of the valley pan??
How on earth did I miss that... we found an adapter that turns 90 degrees to try to give the room needed to connect the sensor and clear the aftermarket throttle body.

If you have a link to the area of his build thread where he goes over this, I would appreciate it. I may have to get in line after you for this!!


https://fieroguruperformance.com/?page_id=1558
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Report this Post04-14-2021 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ah thanks!! (I often forget he has a professional website. I usually just see him talk about things in his build thread and ask him questions!)

Another company makes a solution similar to that. I'd rather buy from FieroGuru if he has the parts or is willing to make it. But if he says he doesn't have the parts/time, let me know and I'll post up the other company.
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Report this Post04-15-2021 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, he got you the link. I've done so much research, but what I haven't found much about is swapping out the LS4 coolant manifold (hideous, oversize) with something a lot more stream lined, like an Earl's remote water pump kit:
https://www.summitracing.co...flanges?fr=part-type

I'd like to see Fieroguru's finished water coolant housing before I make any decisions.
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Report this Post04-15-2021 04:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for da.slyboySend a Private Message to da.slyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Glad you are doing this write-up. I was fortunate to obtain my LS4 from a GXP last year as well. It's been sitting waiting in line with my other projects, so I"m glad you get a head start in putting it together
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Report this Post06-29-2021 01:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's been awhile since I posted; goals are funny things, especially when it comes to project cars like this Fiero. For now, I've had to put it on hold due to some family needs and health issues, but I'm hoping this fall to get back on it hard and heavy. The engine is assembled, and I was starting to sort through the wiring harness but life got in the way. I'll update soon, once I've made some progress.
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Report this Post02-03-2022 11:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JC86GTSend a Private Message to JC86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So, life has brought me back to this project.
Yesterday I ordered parts from Triple Edge :
Stage II 4T65E rebuild kit w/hardened input shaft;
Reman JTFM torque converter;
Gemini chain set;
4T65E Sprocket set 35/35.

Other parts ordered:
LS4 multi-port oil bypass plate from Fieroguru;
12679525 Throttle body;
LS7 "strong" MAF upgrade 15865791 with the "K & a number";
LS7 MAF housing and coupler;
ARP 244-2901 Flexplate bolts;
ATSG TM4T65E Technical Manual';
AEM 30-X0300 wideband 02 sensor/gauge;
Fuel filter Regulator - 58PSI kit;
and 4 gallons of Dexron VI transmission fluid.

First order of business is to finish the engine by installing the LS6 manifold I have acquired and the throttle body. This requires me to weld up the hole for the oil pressure sensor. in the valley cover (dod deleted). It will be relocated to the Fieroguru multi-port bypass plate, along with the Fiero stock oil pressure sensor. Once I have this done I will move on to disassembly of the transmission and begin that rebuild. Pictures to come soon!

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Report this Post02-03-2022 02:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Glad to see you are back on the project!

If you don't want to weld up the oil pressure port in the valley pan, ICT Billet sells a valley pan that only has two small dimples as drill-guides, so people could put on their own type of oil pressure port there. I picked up one of those, it was maybe 60 bucks? ICT Billet part number is 551605. Just in case you want to save yourself the welding hassle.

It's also cool to see that Triple Edge offers a hardened input shaft for the 4T65E. I think the GMPP ones are going for well over a grand for a NOS. Is the Gemini chain set a 1"?
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Report this Post02-03-2022 05:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JC86GT:
First order of business is to finish the engine by installing the LS6 manifold I have acquired and the throttle body. This requires me to weld up the hole for the oil pressure sensor.


I think you can cut that boss down some and just tap the hole for a pipe plug.

Here is a picture of clearance to the LS6 manifold when they were doing the cut and weld mod vs. just eliminating the sensor from that area. Probably just need to shorten the factory boss by 1/8" to 1/4" and tap for a pipe plug.
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