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Can't Get Speedo to Work after 3800 Swap by Stricken
Started on: 01-10-2021 08:17 PM
Replies: 13 (165 views)
Last post by: Dennis LaGrua on 01-18-2021 06:06 AM
Stricken
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Report this Post01-10-2021 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StrickenSend a Private Message to StrickenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've swapped the 3800SC/4t65 into my 88 Formula, and I cannot get the Speedometer to work. I have checked continuity all the way from the buffer circuit to the board of the Speedo. I have replaced all of the components in the buffer circuit. VSS Low has a good ground. I have tried using another speedo (I think it's from an 85?), But that one does the same thing - reads zero with key on and no change when driving. It does lift the needle off the peg, so the Speedo itself seems to be operational.

I had gotten the speedo to give a reading when I was randomly probing with the multimeter. The reading was way off, but it did go up with speed. I have not been able to repeat this, however.

The PCM does have a VSS signal. It was tuned by ZZP, but I heard the tune might need to be adjusted to output the right signal for the buffer circuit? Doesn't make sense to me, but I'm out of ideas at this point.

Does anyone have any ideas or how I can generate a signal to test the Speedo? I'm about to give up and make my own gauge cluster.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post01-10-2021 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You will need a simple RC circuit to shape the signal into something that the Fieros speedometer will recognize.
The Fiero Vss produces a sine wave of 4000 pulses per mile. With the 3800 a signal of 24,000 PPM is generated by its Vss but that signal is first sent to the PCM then inputted back to the speedometer In other words you need to buffer the 3800 PCM's speedometer output so that the Fieros speedometer can read it. You need to build a simple Vss converter that goes between the PCM speedomter output and the Fiero speedometer. I did it on my swap and it works well but I'll need to look up the values of the parts.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Stricken
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Report this Post01-10-2021 10:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StrickenSend a Private Message to StrickenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

You will need a simple RC circuit to shape the signal into something that the Fieros speedometer will recognize.
The Fiero Vss produces a sine wave of 4000 pulses per mile. With the 3800 a signal of 24,000 PPM is generated by its Vss but that signal is first sent to the PCM then inputted back to the speedometer In other words you need to buffer the 3800 PCM's speedometer output so that the Fieros speedometer can read it. You need to build a simple Vss converter that goes between the PCM speedomter output and the Fiero speedometer. I did it on my swap and it works well but I'll need to look up the values of the parts.



Yes, the harness came with the buffer circuit, but when the Speedo wasn't working, I replaced the resistors, diode, and capacitor to no avail. Here's what it looks like (please excuse the messiness as I've done a bunch of cutting/resoldering)



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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post01-11-2021 08:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you soldered directly to the diode ( or any other semiconductor device) without a clip on heat sink, you may have burned it out. You can test it with a VOM. The other suggestion is to re-check the wiring path from the PCM to the VSS adapter to the speedometer. Twelve volts must be supplied to the VSS adapter. Check for voltage.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Stricken
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Report this Post01-11-2021 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StrickenSend a Private Message to StrickenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

If you soldered directly to the diode ( or any other semiconductor device) without a clip on heat sink, you may have burned it out. You can test it with a VOM. The other suggestion is to re-check the wiring path from the PCM to the VSS adapter to the speedometer. Twelve volts must be supplied to the VSS adapter. Check for voltage.



I just built the circuit again just twisting the wires together - no solder. Same thing.

I decided to disconnect the VSS lead coming from the PCM, and I'm seeing no AC voltage when driving around. I pulled the connector apart, and the pins and connectors look good. I have conductivity from the pin side of the connector all the way to the buffer circuit. I'm wondering if the PCM is just not putting out a signal? I had it tuned by ZZP, maybe they turned it off somehow?
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Report this Post01-12-2021 02:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Stricken:


I just built the circuit again just twisting the wires together - no solder. Same thing.

I decided to disconnect the VSS lead coming from the PCM, and I'm seeing no AC voltage when driving around. I pulled the connector apart, and the pins and connectors look good. I have conductivity from the pin side of the connector all the way to the buffer circuit. I'm wondering if the PCM is just not putting out a signal? I had it tuned by ZZP, maybe they turned it off somehow?


Your circuit uses a diode and en electrolytic capacitor. Both must be installed in the correct polarity as per the circuit. I'll try to look up the circuit schematic that I used

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Report this Post01-15-2021 12:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StrickenSend a Private Message to StrickenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I got an oscilloscope multimeter on it, and confirmed that the PCM is not putting out the VSS signal. I decided to take it apart to see if there was a broken pin inside. It appears to be missing a resistor at the VSS Out trace. The was an exchange pcm from ZZP, so maybe the car that this came from was missing an option like cruise control so they left the circuit open?



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Report this Post01-15-2021 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StrickenSend a Private Message to StrickenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I went and bought a junkyard PCM, and the Speedo works with that, so the exchange PCM from ZZP was the issue. Interestingly, that resistor is missing on this PCM too. There is a trace on the back side which is where the signal must come from.
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Report this Post01-16-2021 07:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The first mistake was using a ZZP tuned PCM in a Fiero swap.

Was the 4K signal coming from C1 (blue) 55?
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Report this Post01-16-2021 09:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The first mistake was using a ZZP tuned PCM in a Fiero swap.

Was the 4K signal coming from C1 (blue) 55?
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post01-16-2021 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It seems that you have pinpointed the problem as no output signal from the PCM. If you were able to get a speedometer signal with the new PCM this tells me that you used editing software to turn off the VATS. If you have the software you really not need send the PC out for reprogramming. I run an early LS1 MAF, N* TB and high boost and was able to scan and make all the changes necessary for it to work right including the parameters that apply to the speedometer.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Stricken
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Report this Post01-17-2021 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StrickenSend a Private Message to StrickenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

The first mistake was using a ZZP tuned PCM in a Fiero swap.

Was the 4K signal coming from C1 (blue) 55?


That's where it should have been coming from, but nothing. Plugged the junkyard PCM in, and the speedo came to life.

[This message has been edited by Stricken (edited 01-17-2021).]

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Report this Post01-17-2021 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StrickenSend a Private Message to StrickenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Stricken

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Member since Aug 2020
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

It seems that you have pinpointed the problem as no output signal from the PCM. If you were able to get a speedometer signal with the new PCM this tells me that you used editing software to turn off the VATS. If you have the software you really not need send the PC out for reprogramming. I run an early LS1 MAF, N* TB and high boost and was able to scan and make all the changes necessary for it to work right including the parameters that apply to the speedometer.



No tuning at all. I pulled it from the junkyard car, drove home, and plugged it into mine. Started up, albeit unhappy and throwing codes. After searching around a lot, I found several references that GTPs do not have VATS turned on, and this is confirmation.
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Report this Post01-18-2021 06:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Stricken:


No tuning at all. I pulled it from the junkyard car, drove home, and plugged it into mine. Started up, albeit unhappy and throwing codes. After searching around a lot, I found several references that GTPs do not have VATS turned on, and this is confirmation.


Good info. I run a 2003 GTP PCM and did have to turn off the VATS. Perhaps the earlier units didn't use the feature. Don't really know. May I suggest that you start a new thread and explain exactly what you are looking for in a tune? If you invest in good editor/scanner laptop software making changes is really not difficult. The scan will tell you exactly what you need to adjust and with the 3800 engines its pretty basic as the MAF table mainly controls the fueling. IMO trusting generic "mail order tunes" doesn't achieve the best result but many will disagree.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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