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Digital EGR in California by Notorio
Started on: 01-04-2021 11:47 PM
Replies: 46 (516 views)
Last post by: thesameguy on 01-14-2021 05:17 PM
Notorio
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Report this Post01-04-2021 11:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Has anyone converted to the 7730 ECM and the Digital EGR in California and gotten that safely through smog check? From consulting posts here it seems that the 7730 can't alert the smog tech BUT they might notice during the Visual Inspection that the EGR doesn't look kosher. Any experience with this? My thinking was that Fiero's are so rare here now that your average tech wouldn't notice the difference ...
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cvxjet
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Report this Post01-05-2021 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is something I would be interested in also......Anyone...? (No crickets!)
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skywurz
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Report this Post01-05-2021 02:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skywurzClick Here to visit skywurz's HomePageSend a Private Message to skywurzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In my experience its a roll of the dice. They like to look for things that are new and shinny. If you have new parts or bling they will scrutinize the hell out of it. Matter of fact if you took a pre 87 intake blasted it to cast aluminum and slapped an Edelbrock logo on it they would fail it on the spot. Most techs are not familiar with the actual laws and end up on mini power trips.

If Edelbrock did make a factory replacement intake that had all of the same smog hookups it would be an OEM replacement part. Oem equivalent replacement parts do not need a CARBs stickes/approval.A lot of smog jockies don't know this and because its shinny they fail it.
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Notorio
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Report this Post01-05-2021 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just for the sake of clarity, here is an example from the Georgia Fiero Club site. Don't get distracted by the changes due to using a coil pack. The EGR comes with a black cap that is removed in this photo. I am a little concerned that the aluminum adaptor plate might fall into the 'bright, shiny object' category. Perhaps it could be painted a rust color to sort of blend in?


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Report this Post01-05-2021 03:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skywurzClick Here to visit skywurz's HomePageSend a Private Message to skywurzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One thing id be worried about is one of the steps is to literally "check egr" they check to make sure its there. That doesn't look like a typical EGR for this era of car.

Edit:

I mean you can try it and like i said roll the dice. Worst case you have to convert back for your smog inspection. Basically all of my mods are weighed with am i willing to swap to stock for 1 day every year.

[This message has been edited by skywurz (edited 01-05-2021).]

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jjd2296
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Report this Post01-05-2021 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jjd2296Send a Private Message to jjd2296Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you poor guys in Cali have it bad! here in Ontario, no smog or inspections required for pre 89 cars! we can do what ever we want, just be sure you have a cat and proper exhaust thats it.
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Notorio
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Report this Post01-05-2021 06:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jjd2296:

you poor guys in Cali have it bad! here in Ontario, no smog or inspections required for pre 89 cars! we can do what ever we want, just be sure you have a cat and proper exhaust thats it.


Thanks for reminding us

On the matter of the digital looking different, what if we welded the OEM, rusty-looking, digital flange to the pipe right were the original Fiero flange went? The weld would be underneath the flange, so not observable, and we could use a (working) junkyard EGR so the installation would at least look old ...
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cvxjet
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Report this Post01-05-2021 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A couple of things; A) The states to our east should all be thankful that CA does have strict smog rules- Otherwise you'd be breathing a lot more smog. I actually could tell the difference just driving north into OR.

B) A friend of mine built a (Very hot) AMC 401 for his Javelin (500 hp at 7000 rpm)...Every smog check he would swap on the old 2 bbl set-up from the original 304 and pass with ease (CA does calculate in ring wear, etc so a rebuilt hot 401 would be cleaner than a 200,000 mile oem 304)

So, could the Fiero be switched to the 7730 ecm, driven for 2 years, and then switched back come smog check time? How much is involved?

Just some smoke-creating, gear-grinding thoughts....
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Notorio
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Report this Post01-05-2021 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

...

So, could the Fiero be switched to the 7730 ecm, driven for 2 years, and then switched back come smog check time? How much is involved?

Just some smoke-creating, gear-grinding thoughts....


Just speaking for myself I would be willing to swap in/out the ECM and EGR every two years. That seems pretty easy to manage. Could do the coil everybody recommends at the same time.
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WKDFIRO
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Report this Post01-06-2021 01:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WKDFIROClick Here to Email WKDFIROSend a Private Message to WKDFIROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What are the advantages of this EGR set up?

I would rather ground out the EGR Solenoid, block the EGR tube to the plenum and call it a day.
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OH10fiero
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Report this Post01-06-2021 06:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OH10fieroClick Here to Email OH10fieroSend a Private Message to OH10fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Many years ago someone failed the smog test because where they had their car inspected saw Holley on the TB and thought it was after market. Most of the people working at these places are just there for the paycheck and to say that their knowledge on cars is limited is the understatement of the century. As long as you can make it look stock you will get away with it as they will have no clue to what goes on a Fiero let alone any car.
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Report this Post01-06-2021 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by WKDFIRO:

What are the advantages of this EGR set up?

I would rather ground out the EGR Solenoid, block the EGR tube to the plenum and call it a day.


Our EGR systems are electro/pneumatic. It consists of the EGR solenoid and a separate EGR valve. Valves are available, but the solenoids are no longer manufactured. The only source is from a parts car or if you're lucky, you might find a high dollar NOS solenoid.

Converting to the digital EGR eliminates the pneumatic part of our smog control and replaces it with ECM programming. The 7730 ECM controls the EGR valve. The 7730 also manages the engine much better with a faster response to the engine sensors.

You could do as Notorio suggests and dirty it up a bit. But that probably wouldn't help on our current production run. They have Georgia Fiero engraved into them.

Or explain the shininess with "The old one kept blowing gaskets so I had to get a new one."

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mmeyer86gt/gtp
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Report this Post01-07-2021 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mmeyer86gt/gtpClick Here to Email mmeyer86gt/gtpSend a Private Message to mmeyer86gt/gtpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
with the new tests on our old cars in california they should just plug in odb or just throw the sniffer in the tail pipe if it blows clean it should pass.
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thesameguy
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Report this Post01-08-2021 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
Our EGR systems are electro/pneumatic. It consists of the EGR solenoid and a separate EGR valve. Valves are available, but the solenoids are no longer manufactured. The only source is from a parts car or if you're lucky, you might find a high dollar NOS solenoid.


If this is FOR SURE true (and it probably is), you can be the guinea pig, swap on the digital EGR, and then go fail a smog check. Go to a referee, tell them the part is not available. They will make you contact the Parts Locater Service. If the PLS cannot find you a solenoid, they will write you an exemption for your fix. I've not successfully executed this - I haven't tried - but it's an increasingly available option for '80s cars!

https://asktheref.org/Servi...arts-Locator-Service
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Notorio
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Report this Post01-08-2021 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mmeyer86gt/gtp:

with the new tests on our old cars in california they should just plug in odb or just throw the sniffer in the tail pipe if it blows clean it should pass.


You are trying to apply Logic to government. Nothing could be more hopeless an endeavor in the State of California. At some level this is a government jobs protection measure.

As far as EGR availability, what am I missing? Just consulting Rock Auto for an 88 at least there are two different suppliers to choose from ...
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Report this Post01-08-2021 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dremuClick Here to Email dremuSend a Private Message to dremuEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:


You are trying to apply Logic to government. Nothing could be more hopeless an endeavor in the State of California. At some level this is a government jobs protection measure.

As far as EGR availability, what am I missing? Just consulting Rock Auto for an 88 at least there are two different suppliers to choose from ...


EGR *valve* (driver's side, on exhaust) is available. The EGR *solenoid* (passenger side, up by the temperature senders) is unobtanium as new. (There is a guy in Fresno or someplace that refurbs 'em, though, so they can still be had.)

-- A
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Notorio
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Report this Post01-09-2021 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dremu:

EGR *valve* (driver's side, on exhaust) is available. The EGR *solenoid* (passenger side, up by the temperature senders) is unobtanium as new. (There is a guy in Fresno or someplace that refurbs 'em, though, so they can still be had.)

-- A


LOL, I used to be able to read and comprehend.

For those of us who have been oblivious to the existence of the solenoid, here's a little post from 2013 with a picture of it and a procedure to repair. How I repaired my EGR Solenoid and eliminated my Code 32

I guess this is another item we should all be pulling when visiting the scrap yards ...
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Report this Post01-09-2021 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:
....
I guess this is another item we should all be pulling when visiting the scrap yards ...


The Celebrity, or one of the other FWD GM cars with the 2.8, used a similar solenoid. The difference, as I understand it, is that the tube on the end (the useless one, that goes to the firewall) is replaced by a block of foam, as a filter. I've seen pictures. It looks a bit different, but is supposed to function the same.
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Report this Post01-09-2021 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skywurzClick Here to visit skywurz's HomePageSend a Private Message to skywurzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


The Celebrity, or one of the other FWD GM cars with the 2.8, used a similar solenoid. The difference, as I understand it, is that the tube on the end (the useless one, that goes to the firewall) is replaced by a block of foam, as a filter. I've seen pictures. It looks a bit different, but is supposed to function the same.


This one from a 89 firebird 2.8l looks really dead on
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Report this Post01-09-2021 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:


LOL, I used to be able to read and comprehend.

For those of us who have been oblivious to the existence of the solenoid, here's a little post from 2013 with a picture of it and a procedure to repair. How I repaired my EGR Solenoid and eliminated my Code 32

I guess this is another item we should all be pulling when visiting the scrap yards ...


To Notorio and CLIFF- this LINKED thread on repairing an EGR solenoid should be in the "Faqs and Howtos" section........

Also, Thank you to Timepilot who posted that repair info- He came back numerous times with updates reporting that the fix actually continuing to work for over a year.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post01-11-2021 12:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

A couple of things; A) The states to our east should all be thankful that CA does have strict smog rules- Otherwise you'd be breathing a lot more smog. I actually could tell the difference just driving north into OR.

B) A friend of mine built a (Very hot) AMC 401 for his Javelin (500 hp at 7000 rpm)...Every smog check he would swap on the old 2 bbl set-up from the original 304 and pass with ease (CA does calculate in ring wear, etc so a rebuilt hot 401 would be cleaner than a 200,000 mile oem 304)

So, could the Fiero be switched to the 7730 ecm, driven for 2 years, and then switched back come smog check time? How much is involved?

Just some smoke-creating, gear-grinding thoughts....

California is known for its restrictive over reach on emissions controls. If you own a collector or hobby car as most Fiero owners do; the effect on smog is extremely limited. Most of us drive under 2000 miles per year to cruise nights and car shows. I would say most all are kept in a perfect sense of tune. That is why many states including mine exempt cars 25 yrs or older from inspection checks. California is way off the mark with their "we know whats best for you" thinking. Short of swapping in the 3.4 p/r engine, there is little that you can do to get by the smog police.

------------------
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Report this Post01-11-2021 02:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well......How about what I did to my 1973 mach 1....Originally a 351C 4 bbl/3 speed auto...Swapped in a 1988 5.0, including headers.....What I thought showed some intelligence on the part of the "Smog Police" was tat they allow a more modern engine in an older car, but if it never came with a Cat, they do not require a cat (Chance of car fire since car was not designed with heat shielding, etc)



[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 01-11-2021).]

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thesameguy
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Report this Post01-11-2021 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Short of swapping in the 3.4 p/r engine, there is little that you can do to get by the smog police.


This is patently false. There are Fieros in California running everything from old small block Chevys to new LS motors.

My buddy has a Mazda RX8 with an LFX in it.

My XR4Ti has a hybrid turbo, gigantic intercooler, gutted & ported intake manifold, a 3" exhaust, open air filter, and aftermarket bypass valve. My 1985 Saab has an engine from a 1994 Saab, complete with sequential EFI and distributorless ignition in it.

The only thing California outlaws is janky, half-assed modifications. If it's well-executed and reasonably well documented, you won't have an issue.

I don't know why people continue to make these silly claims about the laws here when they clearly have no idea what they're talking about. I have actually been trolling PFF looking for a Truleo or similar intake for my smog-legal California Fiero.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-11-2021).]

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Report this Post01-11-2021 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

This is patently false. There are Fieros in California running everything from old small block Chevys to new LS motors ...



You may have missed the context here ... this is a ghost modification, using the newer ECM and digital EGR. The point is to NOT have to get the proper paperwork, smog ref meetng, etc., that everyone who has an LS4, etc., correctly did. We are debating if the new ECM can slip past the biannual smog inspections with no questions asked. The main issue seems to be that the newer-looking digital EGR will get flagged due to the inspection checklist calling for visually checking it. I'm trying to (how do I say this?) fly below the radar because I want the engine to look stock but have a little more kick.
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Report this Post01-11-2021 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We have probably sold over 100 kits and I did ship some of those to California. I don't know what problems if any, that the installer had in getting through smog testing.
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Notorio
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Report this Post01-12-2021 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

We have probably sold over 100 kits and I did ship some of those to California. I don't know what problems if any, that the installer had in getting through smog testing.


Possible data here! Thanks for letting me know. How about it installees, what happened at smog inspection ??
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Report this Post01-12-2021 12:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Another option to explain the difference might be that the OEM part is no longer available and that is the GM replacement part. Of course, it should have the GM part number somewhere on it to verify it's a GM part. The AC Delco number is 214-5004. It just combines the old solenoid and the EGR valve into one unit. More reliable.

If you go to our website on this page: http://www.gafiero.org/bbs/...8d8ceb3&topic=733.30

the diagram shows the EGR base plate, so a shiny replacement piece is possible. Print out the diagram to show them. This Digital EGR is used on a huge number of GM vehicles.

http://gafieroclub.org/DigitalEgr.pdf

We would also like to hear comments on smog inspection experiences from anyone who's installed our EGR Adapter Kit. You can post here as well as email us at GeorgiaFieroClub@Gmail.Com
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Report this Post01-12-2021 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:

You may have missed the context here ... this is a ghost modification, using the newer ECM and digital EGR. The point is to NOT have to get the proper paperwork, smog ref meetng, etc., that everyone who has an LS4, etc., correctly did. We are debating if the new ECM can slip past the biannual smog inspections with no questions asked. The main issue seems to be that the newer-looking digital EGR will get flagged due to the inspection checklist calling for visually checking it. I'm trying to (how do I say this?) fly below the radar because I want the engine to look stock but have a little more kick.


No, I totally get that... but Dennis's comment wasn't about ghost mods, it was repeating the same old ridiculous mantra that everything is impossible in California. If you wanna say "that digital EGR is a problem" then say that. Don't make provably false blanket statements about "smog police."

As for the topic at hand, the way the smog check works is a computer tells a technician the things they need to check, whether evap or EGR or whatever is present. It does not provide information on what that equipment looks like, or how it works. Further, for *most* of California where the BAR-97 ("dyno") is employed there is no functional test so there is no reason to look deeper than "present" or "not present." If you have a knowledgeable tech who knows what EGR on a Fiero looks like, he'll fail you for the wrong system. If you have a tech who doesn't know anything and has to go consult Alldata or Mitchell, he'll probably also fail you. What you need is the guy who knows what EGR generally looks like and has no reason to consider whether it should be vacuum or electrically operated.

Be aware that not all areas of California use BAR-97. Some areas still use the old two-speed idle test is used and in those places there can be functional tests, especially for EGR. In this situation, the tech would perform a specific test according to manufacturer guidelines to verify functionality. An improper EGR would obviously instantly fail.

Smog tests are no different from safety inspections in other states, where some techs are just a bit more lax than others. Everybody in New Jersey has a story about failing inspection because their tech decided a rust spot was in the wrong place or a brake pad was a tiny bit too worn. I have been failed for things that should have passed, and passed for things that should have failed. It truly is pretty luck of the draw... which is why if you find a reliable smog shop you're a customer for life.

The caution I would issue is this: If you sell a product into California with the express purpose of evading smog laws and you get caught, the fines are substantial. Recently a tuner in Indiana (IIRC) got fined $140,000 for selling illegal equipment into California. It's not a risk I would run. Publish the info on the internet, but if you sell a product you're at risk IMO.

I think the proper way to handle this is just flip a ref $8.25 and do a real engine change using a 1994 Camaro as a donor. It should be fine, assuming they give you a pass on the Fiero exhaust manifolds and slightly tighter catalytic converter placement. I'm confident they won't hassle you on the manifolds, but *might* on the cat. You'd have to measure the linear distance between the Camaro's collector and cat and compare. If it's within six or twelve inches, you're probably fine. Then, problem solved forever. Well, until Camaro coil packs and EGR valves go NLA.
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Report this Post01-12-2021 05:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for armosSend a Private Message to armosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The inspector looks at the emissions diagram label under the decklid and compares with what's in the car. It shows the solenoid and it's vacuum routing.
Every inspector I've seen always studies that diagram and the routing. There might be a few who slack off when they see such an old and unfamiliar car, perhaps because they're rushing (old cars call for a more detailed inspection) and maybe also because of unfamiliarity - but they're gambling that it's not an "undercover car". The state will send those around and issue huge fines to any shop that passes them, and some of them are older cars then you might expect.

For those who are wondering, the point of changing to digital EGR is to make it compatible with a 7730 ECM. The 7730 obviously has no problem with actual emissions but is nevertheless illegal (unless you want to go down the road of getting a state official to grant "special permission"). Assuming you install the center console then the ECM won't be seen in an inspection, but it creates 2 issues I know of that could come up:

One is the EGR, hence the need to make it look stock.

The other is the ignition timing check. When you check ignition timing on a 7730, it doesn't respond the same way when you short the A-B terminals. Most importantly shorting AB won't cut the timing to base like it's supposed to.
Secondly the check engine light won't flash to indicate O2 sensor feedback like it does on the 7170. I don't know if the inspector would notice that 2nd point or not, or if he'd care about it, and I'm curious how much info the BAR computer gives them about the procedure for checking timing.
Telling the inspector to unplug the EST wire is probably a bad idea because the obvious next question is why it doesn't work like stock. So the alternative is to program an emissions testing chip that has no advance at idle, and I find that kind of undesirable but I guess it would work.

I lived in CA up until recently. My intention was to make an adapter harness so the ECMs could be easily swapped and switch to the OEM 7170 for emissions testing. I'm sure tailpipe emissions would be better with the 7730 and it's matching EGR but CA makes that difficult.
I haven't noticed any appreciable difference in "air quality" anywhere at the state level. It just fluctuates with what cars are next to you at that moment, how "aromatic" the trees are that day, how many cows are nearby, and how close the latest forest fire is to your house. A relative complained about Texas when they drove through, but I just drove through there and I think they were full of it. When someone is predisposed to find something they can find it.
California's hyper-fanatacism about the air is rooted in Los Angeles, which is one of the 2 dumbest locations for a city in the country. They built a city in a desert with no water in a valley with no airflow under a natural fog layer, I guess because it was pretty, and the rest of the state has always been expected to accommodate it's needs. I'm sure the people are fine and I was born there so it can't be that bad, but my sympathy is limited.
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Report this Post01-12-2021 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by armos:

The inspector looks at the emissions diagram label under the decklid and compares with what's in the car. It shows the solenoid and it's vacuum routing.
Every inspector I've seen always studies that diagram and the routing. There might be a few who slack off when they see such an old and unfamiliar car, perhaps because they're rushing (old cars call for a more detailed inspection) and maybe also because of unfamiliarity - but they're gambling that it's not an "undercover car". The state will send those around and issue huge fines to any shop that passes them, and some of them are older cars then you might expect.


All true, although I've never ever seen a tech fail a car for a slight variance when it generally looks good. A lot has to do with presentation. If the engine bay is clean, everything appears hooked up, and the components indicated are present, nobody is gonna hassle you about little variances.

I've run "the wrong fuel injection system" on multiple Saabs over 20+ years - this means an electric evap purge valve in lieu of the original vacuum operated purge valve. In 25 years of smog inspections on a dozen cars, not a single failure. Like the Fiero, there's no choice here - the vacuum operated valve has been NLA since the '90s. As such, multiple people in multiple counties have followed this approach in the intervening years and nobody has ever failed. Granted this is all anecdote, but IME *most* techs are not getting mired in the details so long as things appear about right. Some surely will, but the lion's share are gonna be reasonable.

 
quote
The other is the ignition timing check. When you check ignition timing on a 7730, it doesn't respond the same way when you short the A-B terminals. Most importantly shorting AB won't cut the timing to base like it's supposed to.


This could definitely be an issue.

 
quote
Secondly the check engine light won't flash to indicate O2 sensor feedback like it does on the 7170. I don't know if the inspector would notice that 2nd point or not, or if he'd care about it, and I'm curious how much info the BAR computer gives them about the procedure for checking timing.


This should not be part of the test on an OBDI car... the test is only "does the CEL illuminate and then extinguish." No other function is checked. No test calls for "verify O2 sensor feedback light."

The computer gives no guidance for testing anything.. it's up to the shop to have the skills & means to do that. Every shop I've ever visited uses alldata or mitchell to get this info. Sometimes it's wrong! I bring the actual paper factory manual when I smog my XR4Ti because Mitchell (IIRC) shows the wrong procedure for checking timing on that car.

 
quote
Telling the inspector to unplug the EST wire is probably a bad idea because the obvious next question is why it doesn't work like stock. So the alternative is to program an emissions testing chip that has no advance at idle, and I find that kind of undesirable but I guess it would work.


Since nothing gets plugged into the OBD port, you could make this happen. Use a SPDT relay, connect the EST wire across terminals 30 and 87. Connect 86 to battery power. Wire B on the OBD port to terminal 85, wire A on the OBD port to ground. Now, when A is shorted to B, the relay switches and the EST wire is electrically disconnected.

 
quote
California's hyper-fanatacism about the air is rooted in Los Angeles, which is one of the 2 dumbest locations for a city in the country. They built a city in a desert with no water in a valley with no airflow under a natural fog layer, I guess because it was pretty, and the rest of the state has always been expected to accommodate it's needs. I'm sure the people are fine and I was born there so it can't be that bad, but my sympathy is limited.


You could say roughly the same thing about piles of places in the US. I live in NorCal, why do I care about people who get hurricane'd in Florida, flooded out in Mississippi, or blown away by tornados in Illinois? It stupid to build a city near a river that floods every 5 or 10 years. If they don't want loss from these disasters, they should move, right? Of course not. We've all got challenges. We can all compromise a little and solve them.

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quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


No, I totally get that... but Dennis's comment wasn't about ghost mods, it was repeating the same old ridiculous mantra that everything is impossible in California. If you wanna say "that digital EGR is a problem" then say that. Don't make provably false blanket statements about "smog police."

As for the topic at hand, the way the smog check works is a computer tells a technician the things they need to check, whether evap or EGR or whatever is present. It does not provide information on what that equipment looks like, or how it works. Further, for *most* of California where the BAR-97 ("dyno") is employed there is no functional test so there is no reason to look deeper than "present" or "not present." If you have a knowledgeable tech who knows what EGR on a Fiero looks like, he'll fail you for the wrong system. If you have a tech who doesn't know anything and has to go consult Alldata or Mitchell, he'll probably also fail you. What you need is the guy who knows what EGR generally looks like and has no reason to consider whether it should be vacuum or electrically operated.

Be aware that not all areas of California use BAR-97. Some areas still use the old two-speed idle test is used and in those places there can be functional tests, especially for EGR. In this situation, the tech would perform a specific test according to manufacturer guidelines to verify functionality. An improper EGR would obviously instantly fail.

Smog tests are no different from safety inspections in other states, where some techs are just a bit more lax than others. Everybody in New Jersey has a story about failing inspection because their tech decided a rust spot was in the wrong place or a brake pad was a tiny bit too worn. I have been failed for things that should have passed, and passed for things that should have failed. It truly is pretty luck of the draw... which is why if you find a reliable smog shop you're a customer for life.

The caution I would issue is this: If you sell a product into California with the express purpose of evading smog laws and you get caught, the fines are substantial. Recently a tuner in Indiana (IIRC) got fined $140,000 for selling illegal equipment into California. It's not a risk I would run. Publish the info on the internet, but if you sell a product you're at risk IMO.

I think the proper way to handle this is just flip a ref $8.25 and do a real engine change using a 1994 Camaro as a donor. It should be fine, assuming they give you a pass on the Fiero exhaust manifolds and slightly tighter catalytic converter placement. I'm confident they won't hassle you on the manifolds, but *might* on the cat. You'd have to measure the linear distance between the Camaro's collector and cat and compare. If it's within six or twelve inches, you're probably fine. Then, problem solved forever. Well, until Camaro coil packs and EGR valves go NLA.


I'm happy to hear that you enjoy putting up with all that big brother bureaucratic nonsense. Again read my lips, there is NO inspection requirement for cars 1996 and older in New Jersey and they don't have to have historic plates. You can do anything that you wish to your Fiero here.

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Report this Post01-12-2021 09:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skywurzClick Here to visit skywurz's HomePageSend a Private Message to skywurzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


I'm happy to hear that you enjoy putting up with all that big brother bureaucratic nonsense. Again read my lips, there is NO inspection requirement for cars 1996 and older in New Jersey and they don't have to have historic plates. You can do anything that you wish to your Fiero here.




"It's a Jersey thing"
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Report this Post01-12-2021 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Quota from Dennis; "I'm happy to hear that you enjoy putting up with all that big brother bureaucratic nonsense. Again read my lips, there is NO inspection requirement for cars 1996 and older in New Jersey and they don't have to have historic plates. You can do anything that you wish to your Fiero here."

Dennis- ALL states have some ridiculous laws;

New Jersey laws;

1) In Manville it's illegal to offer alcohol or tobacco to zoo animals

2) In New Jersey it's illegal to commit murder while wearing a bullet proof vest.

3) In Newark it's illegal to purchase ice cream after 6 pm without a doctors note.

4)In New Jersey it's illegal to frown at a cop.

5) If convicted of DUI, you're no longer allowed to have custom license plates.

6) In Haddon Twp. it's illegal to annoy someone of the opposite sex.

7) In New Jersey it's illegal to slurp your soup in public.

8) In Trenton it's illegal to eat pickles on Sunday.

9) In New Jersey it's illegal for birds to poop on statues.

10) In New Jersey it's illegal for a man to knit during fishing season.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Holy moly....Indiana almost passed an unbelievably dumb law!

Pi is a long, irrational number, and it's tough to remember. Maybe that's why the Indiana House of Representatives passed a bill in 1897 redefining the value of Pi at 3.2. Thankfully for math students across the state, a mathematician intervened and the bill stalled in the Senate and never passed.

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 01-12-2021).]

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thesameguy
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Report this Post01-12-2021 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nevermind.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-12-2021).]

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Notorio
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Report this Post01-12-2021 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
Since nothing gets plugged into the OBD port, you could make this happen. Use a SPDT relay, connect the EST wire across terminals 30 and 87. Connect 86 to battery power. Wire B on the OBD port to terminal 85, wire A on the OBD port to ground. Now, when A is shorted to B, the relay switches and the EST wire is electrically disconnected ...


Thank you for bringing up the timing issue when the tech shorts A-B!! Last night I was staring at the ceiling for a long time trying to remember that issue with the 7730 that I had stumbled across in another post (perhaps yours??) that highlighted this problem, but I was not able to find it again by searching. So that solves all 3 issues with the ECM swap:

1) The 7730 might alert the tech when the OBD1 gets plugged in. Solution: not an issue, it doesn't get plugged in.

2) The visual inspection of the digital EGR might be noticed as different. Solution: make the install look old and like it belongs there.

3) The 7730 doesn't baseline the timing when the A-B connector is shorted. Solution: rig up the switch you proposed.

Hmmmn, we are still faced with the missing Solenoid, however, if the tech is going by the sticker.

Gee, I wish someone who has done the mod in CA would chime in with some real smog test experience.
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Report this Post01-13-2021 12:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I thought I'd grab a photo of the sticker so everyone could see what information it had on it. Two things became clear:

1) The car had an aftermarket coil that I never noticed before. Doh!

2) The diagram on the sticker really makes the solenoid quite obvious. How could a tech fail to flag a missing solenoid?



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fierofool
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Report this Post01-13-2021 09:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How about if the emissions sticker was replaced with one from a Duke? Explain that the old deck lid had a spoiler or luggage rack that you didn't like and you swapped decklids or that you had to punch out the lock and damaged the old decklid. That could easily work on a notchie, but the tech would have to be familiar enough with the Fiero to know that a Duke was never covered by a long fastback decklid.
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Report this Post01-13-2021 09:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When i was doing the 7730 ECM, i made an adapter harness that you plugged into the Fiero harness and then the 7730. It allowed you do go back to the stock ECM for troubleshooting

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Report this Post01-13-2021 09:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So you had piggyback ECM's?
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Report this Post01-13-2021 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If, for example one is using a 7730 ECM from a 93 Beretta, you would still use an OBD1 ALDL. How are trouble codes read?
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