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Digital EGR in California by Notorio
Started on: 01-04-2021 11:47 PM
Replies: 46 (530 views)
Last post by: thesameguy on 01-14-2021 05:17 PM
fierofool
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Report this Post01-13-2021 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by skywurz:

One thing id be worried about is one of the steps is to literally "check egr" they check to make sure its there. That doesn't look like a typical EGR for this era of car.



A number of Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs used that EGR valve in 1988 and 1989.

The Beretta, Corsica, Cimmaron, Pontiac 6000, Tempest, Century, Skyhawk, Firenza, Cierra, Celebrity, and Cavalier all used the 7730 ECM in 87 and 88. An emissions sticker from one of those vehicles could be used and it would properly represent the conversion. All those cars used a 2.8 V6 engine.

I found an emissions decal for a 91 Camaro 3.1 that doesn't have any vacuum lines or diagrams, whatsoever. Describes how to connect for diagnostic mode by disconnecting the timing lead. I assume that would mean the crankshaft sensor.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 01-13-2021).]

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thesameguy
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Report this Post01-13-2021 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You could try just removing the sticker. I've had more than a few cars over the years where the sticker has fallen off or become unreadable. On my XR4Ti the sticker was placed on a plastic plate under the hood... well, the plastic turned to dust years ago, so I've had no sticker since..... 2002? The actual smog check manual has wording to the effect "the technician must use all information available to them ... including the VHRD and VECI" but doesn't explicitly tell them what they must reference. If the VHRD is gone, the tech may just rely on his own brains, or might look up the vacuum diagram on alldata. IME, most techs just poke around the engine bay making sure that everything is connected. If the entire old system is elegantly removed, such that there is no evidence the vacuum EGR was ever there, it might not raise any flags. You could always glue a nipple onto the digital EGR and connect a vacuum hose to it.

The problem with this process is that there is a ton of "best judgment" so you if you're trying to skirt the letter of the law you'll get mixed results... not all techs can read worth a crap, some are super detail oriented. My XR4Ti once failed smog because there was a loose electrical connector in the engine bay. The ass wouldn't believe it was damned diagnostic connector so I took the car elsewhere. My Saab failed once for not having EGR - no Saab in California *ever* had EGR, except in 1990, and that was recalled and removed. At the same time, I've done 40+ smog checks with an electric evap purge valve instead of a vacuum operated one and never failed once. It's not random per se, but a bit unpredictable for sure. IMO it'd be worth *trying*.

Speaking of: I don't know how timing is actually checked on a Fiero. Looking at my 2017 smog:



it shows timing is 7 degrees. That's outside the +/- 2 degrees allowed is base timing is 10... so maybe something else is going on. The ALDL connector is hidden under a panel, and I'm not entirely certain a tech would remove that panel to access that connector, but maybe. It'll be a while before my car is smogged again, but I'll try and pay more attention. Hell, maybe I will be the 7730 guinea pig. OTOH, I'm seriously entertaining just bolting on 1994 fuel injection and paying the $8.25 for a BAR label so I don't have to worry about it.
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armos
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Report this Post01-14-2021 03:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for armosSend a Private Message to armosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
California's hyper-fanatacism about the air is rooted in Los Angeles, which is one of the 2 dumbest locations for a city in the country. They built a city in a desert with no water in a valley with no airflow under a natural fog layer, I guess because it was pretty, and the rest of the state has always been expected to accommodate it's needs. I'm sure the people are fine and I was born there so it can't be that bad, but my sympathy is limited.

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
You could say roughly the same thing about piles of places in the US. I live in NorCal, why do I care about people who get hurricane'd in Florida, flooded out in Mississippi, or blown away by tornados in Illinois? It stupid to build a city near a river that floods every 5 or 10 years. If they don't want loss from these disasters, they should move, right? Of course not. We've all got challenges. We can all compromise a little and solve them.

The problems and demands of Los Angeles carry too much weight in state politics. Yes, if somebody living in L.A. doesn't like the air then they should move somewhere more workable before calling for stricter laws.
I just moved from your area to Florida and I'd agree that you should not be required to subsidize hurricanes, especially since it's not even the same state. I have more acceptance of natural disaster bailouts within the state level, but if it's overdone it can still distort the economics of living in risky or impractical places.
The primary source of charity should be voluntary charity, which politicians always push out of the limelight by using other people's money to steal the attention for themselves.
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armos
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Report this Post01-14-2021 03:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for armosSend a Private Message to armosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

armos

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quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
You could try just removing the sticker. I've had more than a few cars over the years where the sticker has fallen off or become unreadable. On my XR4Ti the sticker was placed on a plastic plate under the hood... well, the plastic turned to dust years ago, so I've had no sticker since..... 2002? The actual smog check manual has wording to the effect "the technician must use all information available to them ... including the VHRD and VECI" but doesn't explicitly tell them what they must reference. If the VHRD is gone, the tech may just rely on his own brains, or might look up the vacuum diagram on alldata. IME, most techs just poke around the engine bay making sure that everything is connected. If the entire old system is elegantly removed, such that there is no evidence the vacuum EGR was ever there, it might not raise any flags. You could always glue a nipple onto the digital EGR and connect a vacuum hose to it.

Interesting. I was under the impression the emissions sticker is required to be there and had to be replaced if unreadable. I guess not? If that works then it's a simple solution.

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
A number of Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs used that EGR valve in 1988 and 1989.

The Beretta, Corsica, Cimmaron, Pontiac 6000, Tempest, Century, Skyhawk, Firenza, Cierra, Celebrity, and Cavalier all used the 7730 ECM in 87 and 88. An emissions sticker from one of those vehicles could be used and it would properly represent the conversion. All those cars used a 2.8 V6 engine.

Using a wrong sticker, if noticed, could conceivably get you flagged for "tampering" or something along those lines. But a matching model year sticker (the stickers state the model year) that matches the installation could work.

I notice that it looks like the 1988 Fiero sticker's diagram is in the correct orientation. On my 1986 it's upside down - so GM used a FWD diagram from factory at least on my car. Unless somebody replaced it, which is something I've never considered.

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
Speaking of: I don't know how timing is actually checked on a Fiero. Looking at my 2017 smog:



it shows timing is 7 degrees. That's outside the +/- 2 degrees allowed is base timing is 10... so maybe something else is going on. The ALDL connector is hidden under a panel, and I'm not entirely certain a tech would remove that panel to access that connector, but maybe.

The allowed tolerance is +/- 3 degrees, so 7deg barely passes.
I've seen the shop I frequented poke their head into the cabin before checking timing, but I always bring the car in with that cover (and the engine vents) removed. If the cover was still there, I think they're supposed to open it but maybe some would cheat to save time. Is there still an EST wire on the 7170? Maybe some of them would look for that instead before checking AllData/etc, but the emissions sticker does say to use the ALDL jumper.
 
quote
from the 1988 label that was posted earlier
GROUND DIAGNOSTIC CONNECTOR LOCATED IN CONSOLE (this is ambiguous but it points them at the ALDL)
NOTE: SERVICE ENGINE SOON LIGHT WILL BEGIN FLASHING

The flashing won't happen with 7730, and since it's mentioned here I think it could make some inspectors think the procedure isn't working, so gee I can't check timing you fail, or you have an ECM functional problem so fail, but I guess most of them would ignore that discrepancy and continue.
Timing on the 2.8L Fiero is also hard to read (I think so anyway) so I can imagine many of them give up and just write down a "pass" for the timing. They won't get into the habit of doing that though because an undercover car with incorrect timing is the kind of thing I bet BAR agents would try to catch them with.

If you ever want to tweak the timing, the best way to do it in California is to keep the distributor locked at 10BTC and make your changes at the chip. Changing the "distributor reference angle" value in the chip is effectively the same as moving the distributor, but it won't show up in the base timing. So the safer way of getting the car tested at a slight retard of 7BTC is to keep the distributor at 10, but set "distributor reference angle" to 13. That tells the computer the distributor is at 13BTC so it will add 3 less degrees of advance. It will still show up as 10BTC in diagnostic mode.
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thesameguy
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Report this Post01-14-2021 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The tolerance for timing was changed to 2 a few years ago... As mentioned Saabs don't have EGR, so the only way to control NOx is the cat. When they get old and weak, NOx tend to go out of control, and a quick fix is less advance. I used to bring all my cars in at 13 degrees but about 10 years ago was told the tolerance had changed. I suppose it could vary from car to car? IDK. It's not a problem anymore... All my old Saabs have newer engine/FI now.

I'm sure the VHRD & VECI are "required," but it's not like you can call Pontiac or Saab or Merkur and get a new one anymore. If it's gone or unreadable, they can't fail you for a part you can't replace. Certainly not a damn sticker. Although it would be funny to call the PLS I referenced above and ask them to find one.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-14-2021).]

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fierobear
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Report this Post01-14-2021 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearClick Here to Email fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by WKDFIRO:

What are the advantages of this EGR set up?

I would rather ground out the EGR Solenoid, block the EGR tube to the plenum and call it a day.


The car would fail for high NOx. I went through months of s*** with my 3.4 Formula because of this. It got flagged as a "gross polluter", and it took me multiple trips to a Smog Referee Station to get it passed.

The guys at FOCOA's shop did the Solenoid trick, but I caused me to fail smog when NOx test was added, I think with Smog 2 (if I recall, this was 20 years ago).

To fix this, I found a working EGR Solenoid, and the car passed smog.

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thesameguy
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Report this Post01-14-2021 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by armos:
The problems and demands of Los Angeles carry too much weight in state politics. Yes, if somebody living in L.A. doesn't like the air then they should move somewhere more workable before calling for stricter laws.


That's kind of a silly thing to say. 66% of the state lives in the five SoCal counties. LA county alone (never mind OC/SD/SB/Riverside counties) equals the population of all NorCal counties combined, this weighting seems expected. If LA County was its own state, it would be the 8th most populous state. That's a lot of power in a place the size of Connecticut - which has 33% the population of LA. Stands to reason that if 11,000,000 people in Los Angeles say "X" and 200,000 people in Butte say "Y," it's gonna be "X" every time.

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