Hi, I recently picked up a 1988 2.8L Formula and am trying to make it into my daily driver. I got the gas tank cleaned out by a radiator shop and replaced the entire fuel system from the strainer to the injectors to get the car running. Once the new injectors were in it would run, but idle at 3000. So i replaced the EGR tube and that was solved, but it sill is a slightly erratic idle. Sometimes idles at 1000, sometimes at 2000, frequently somewhere in the middle with 200rpm fluctuations. I cleaned out the IAC, but will probably just buy a new one and repalce it today. Should I throw another $50 at it and get a new MAP while I'm at it? With these items is it critical to get AC Delco, or does it not matter? The only reason I ask is because the last car I had of this era (I usually drive older, non-electronic cars) was a 1994 Grand Cherokee and it was really fussy about non-Mopar sensors. I would like to get this thing legal ASAP. I moved to California a year ago and the last car I bought in CA is pre-1975 smog exempt, so this is my first enounter with the California procedures. I'm from Colorado and there they will give you a temporary tag good for 60 days or something to get your emissions all sorted after getting a used car. California will only give you a one day pass, so I have to take the metro 2 hours each way to work until I get this Fiero on the road. I took it in for a test yesterday and failed on: -fuel cap -ignition timing -fuel evaporative controls -15mph hydrocarbons emissions For fuel cap I'm guessing all they want me to do is buy a new one. I've set ignition timing plenty of times before, but my timing light is back in Colorado so if anyone knows of a decent shop that'll just do it real quick for me near Long Beach that'd be cool. Or if anyone in the LA area has a timing light I could either borrow or buy from you let me know. For the fuel evaporative controls what I'm guesing is when I reinstalled the gas tank I don't think I got the vent hose connected very well. Does that soud like a likely cause? Im okay with having to drop the tank again because I need to check my fuel sender wires. I replaced it, but think the wires in the tank got loose during the install. I'd rather not have to replace the cat, so are there any tips for lowering the HC emissions count? My reading was 89 and the limit is 83ppm. Thanks for the help!
Ok so in CA they pump our gas tanks full of nitrogen on pre 95 cars and see if the system leaks. It seems that your fuel system has a leak. That's the fuel evap fail. Its not the lines but the breather system. possibly the fuel pump oring and or the line that goes to the charcoal.
For erratic idle check your vacuum lines. If you have not replaced the rubber in 5 years do it they are cheap.
The high HC could be as simple as the timing issue. Probably drop down with non leaking vacuum and timing.
You can rent a timing gun from auto zone
[This message has been edited by skywurz (edited 10-30-2020).]
EVAP test for old cars are 2 steps... Cap in correct test adapter will seal. Fail then buy a new Stant cap. Correct test adapter will replace the cap to test the car. The test will pressurize the tank often < 1 PSI (So low they often use Inches of Water to measure.) and stop and watch for X time.
The one the Gross is likely second part. Can Fail for an air/fumes leak anywhere in the tank, vent lines, fill pipe, etc. Even a hard vent hose to EVAP "can" can Fail because hard hose won't seal when is "clamped" to test. Fail means Replace big vent hose on the "can" w/ new Fuel Hose. Then take to a shop w/ smoke tester to look for leaks elsewhere.
Correct and Good Test Adapters is very important. Wrong or worn/damaged items may seem to fit but fail to seal. Example: The "clamp" pliers can wear and hard to seal even w/ new hoses. If possible get tested in another facility if Fail again. Do Not tell the Inspector the equipment may have issues.
Fail Ignition timing is likely related to Failing Sniffer test at low speed. Fix timing.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I was able to get a 30 day temp tag. Yay. I am slowing trying to get this all sorted. I have not yet addresed the Evap problem. The hoses going to the Evap can all look fine, but should I replace them anyways? One day I was driving and it would drive, but not idle. I replaced the IAC and MAP and that fixed it. I still can't get the dang thing to idle slower. 10% of the time it will idle at 1000rpm, but most of the time it sits around 1500. I'll keep hunting down vacuum leaks, I guess. I picked up a timing light at Harbor Frieght and checked the timing. It was right at 10 degrees! I don't know why he said it was out of spec. To check it I jumped the bottom left two leads in the computer connector thing and started the engine. Is this correct?
Some times the techs are just awful. One time i had a tech fail me for not being able to figure out how to check the timing on my fixed timing tech-4. The other issue i have is; unless its run 1 gear higher than the smog machine tells them to. it fails due to some speed rpm mismatch.
Sometimes the timing marks have problems because outer ring on balancer moves as rubber "rots" etc. So marks might say 10° but isn't true and advance timing can make Idle problems on top of vac leaks etc.
EVAP rubber can get hard and fuel vent hose won't seal when tested w/ "clamp pliers." Small line hard won't matter. Replace big line at EVAP can then smoke test as above.
Took it in for a second test today. I had dropped the tank and made sure the evap line was attached securely, replaced the spark plugs and distributor cap. My high idle was coming from the gasket between the EGR valve and EGR tube. It had been a fresh gasket that came with the new braided EGR tube from the Fiero Store, but I replaced it anyways and there is STILL a vacuum leak at that junction. It goes away once the engine is hot though.
...anyways it failed again. This time only on the 15mph HC. My NO is above average, but fine. My CO is significantly above average, but within limits. HC is measured 101 with the max being 83. Last time it measured 89.
There's a lot of free oxygen in your 15 mph test result... looks like a misfire?
Other general things that may help: Do an oil change with thicker oil (new oil also has highest viscosity), so less oil end up being burned in the combustion chamber, causing HC. Try spiking your fuel tank with E85?
There's a lot of free oxygen in your 15 mph test result... looks like a misfire?
Other general things that may help: Do an oil change with thicker oil (new oil also has highest viscosity), so less oil end up being burned in the combustion chamber, causing HC. Try spiking your fuel tank with E85?
Besides the coil, the only part of the ignition system that hasn't been replaced is the plug wires, so I'll get some fresh ones on. Right now I've just got 5W30, how thick should I go? I've never heard of spiking the fuel tank with E85. What does that mean? Any of those off the self fuel additives gonna do anything?
I'm wondering if your catalytic converter isn't burning off the excess crap like it should. Has it ever been replaced? Most of them disintegrate internally.
Could be miss fire... Could still have vac leak and ECM think running lean adding extra gas. Old GM engines often run rich at low speed won't help making small vac leaks a big pain to fix even w/ smoke testing. ECM can run BLM at rich/lean limits and not setting codes because Integrator isn't pegged long enough. See my Cave, Scan Tool Help
Check All grounds bolted to engine/trans... Clean and lube w/ silicon or brake grease. Example: A Tan "Ground" is Return path to O2 sensor and crap connection mess up sensor reading for ECM. Other iffy "grounds" can have same problem for other sensors/senders, ICM, etc.
Did you drive on highway for awhile before testing? If not, the cat may never get hot enough to burn old crap functionally blocking it. Before OBD2, I've seen many people fail then just drive and retest same or next day and pass. Example: Many here get in line for inspection barns then shut off the engine to wait for them to open then fail because cat didn't get hot. Had big signs to run the engine but often didn't help first few cars on a given day.
Here in my state any car 25 years or older is exempt from inspection and can apply for historic plates. If newer and driven less than 5000 miles per year you can additionally apply for a classic/collector car exemption . If you have something like this in Kalifornia take advantage of it. If your CAT is original I would change it. That might clean things up measurably. Then try this: CRC Guarantted to pass Emissions Elixer
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 12-04-2020).]
Id not run that snake oil through a new CAT. But i do recommend a new CAT. I dont think you are going to drop those numbers with just vacuum . What I would suggest is getting a new cat. After you remove the old one get some sea foam fog and run that through the engine while running. Then install the new CAT. I did just the sea foam a couple years ago on the wife's car when it was borderline failing and it dropped HC by 150 points. Her car had been borderline failing for the past 2 smogs and then failed. Did the fog and it helped. Last time she went to smog we just did an oil change and it passed no issues. Also each stations machine is a bit different. They don't calibrate them worth a crap.
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Here in my state any car 25 years or older is exempt from inspection and can apply for historic plates. If newer and driven less than 5000 miles per year you can additionally apply for a classic/collector car exemption . If you have something like this in Kalifornia take advantage of it. If your CAT is original I would change it. That might clean things up measurably.
If you only drive to car shows and related or ignore state rules then get one. Antique Vintage Historic and others special tags have rules to limit driving in most states with them and NJ is one.
You cannot drive to school work or other places most or all of the year depending on state. Many won't allow mod'ed car on many of these tags and can't mod after getting one too.
If get caught violating rules at minimum state can force you to surrender the tag. Some cases can get change w/ various crimes.
CA is actually way more strict. They want all sorts of proof the car is original and has never been in an accident or repaired from an accident. They don't allow you to drive the car except to car shows or parades. Stuff like that. I think you actually have to go to a referee and do the same inspection as if you were doing a v8 swap.
Failed a third test today. Before taking it in I made sure there was no vacuum leaks, fixed the idle: someone had messed with the screw on the throttle body, replaced the spark plug wires, and replaced the O2 sensor. I also overinflated the tires and drove it for a long time before taking it in to warm up the cat. This time my HC readings were better, but still outside of limits. My NO went way up though. I called a local shop that said they'd do a new cat for 450, parts and labor.
I dealt with the exact same issue a few months ago myself and I also live in Cali.
Timing was off, no real maintenance done to it.
Did a full tune up and replaced the CAT. Paid about the same. Mine was falling apart and it sounded restricted and smelled like smog (stunk), if that makes any sense. Passed the smog with flying colors.
Ask to see your CAT after they take it off. Mine was plugged up and no honey comb left.
As a side note,
I had a harder time finding a station that would test it. Seems like we are loosing all the test station that can do or want to test pre OBD2. I called about 12 shops non would do it. They kept telling me "It takes to long" or " The machine has been down for months". They just want to plug the OB2, take 30 seconds to read it and take your 70 bucks. Best legal scam out there.
Second hardest was finding someone who had a working test test station and could drive stick. Had to wait until the older gentleman worked so I could take it in.... lol.
I have an 88 GT that took a lot of work to get running right and passing the I/M 240 emissions program here in CO. I had to replace the physically destroyed cat that was on the car when I bought it. I installed a Walker 15026 cat (twice, actually, since I destroyed one getting the mixture to be right). Runs great now, and I pass ("fast pass") with ease.
None of that helps you, except that I'm sure my exhaust gas numbers would pass in CA. But is it allowed for you to replace the cat yourself? Aftermarket cats with CARB numbers are available - a lot more expensive, but available. For example the Walker 80905 is listed as being CARB-compliant and has 2" inlet/outlet to fit the Fiero pipes.
Unless CA requires replacement to be done by someone with some kind of certification or license (and makes you prove it) could you not buy/install one of these and be good?
Aftermarket cats with CARB numbers are available - a lot more expensive, but available. For example the Walker 80905 is listed as being CARB-compliant and has 2" inlet/outlet to fit the Fiero pipes.
Oh it gets better. The geniuses at the smog stations are trained to look for shinny things. If they see that shinny new cat they are going to have to find the CARB stamp. If they for some reason (lazy) cant read the number or miss read it you fail and they take your $80
[This message has been edited by skywurz (edited 12-17-2020).]
The geniuses at the smog stations are trained to look for shinny things. If they see that shinny new cat they are going to have to find the CARB stamp...
Might be worthwhile to chemically oxidize the outside of a new cat before installation.
I thought running a little mix of ethanol in the fuel to up the alcohol content for a short period would help in a situation like this since it burns cleaner. Is that not correct?
It is finally done. I got a new cat put in there and passed just fine. It was $450 and I gave him a little extra for being quick. Honestly much cheaper than I expectd. (YES WE ALL KNOW IT WOULD COST WAY LESS OUTSIDE CALIFORNIA). She has a fresh 2021 sticker on the plate now.
I called a local shop that said they'd do a new cat for 450, parts and labor
If you haven't replaced the catalytic converter yet check this out.... I also have an 88 Formula V6. Cat was plugged - full of honeycomb but all broke into pieces. Purchased and installed myself (simple ) the direct replacement V6 cat from www.rodneydickman.com for $149.95 and turned around and sold the old one to Www.rrcats.com for $145. They even paid for shipping to send it to them. Net cost $4.95. Win/win.
P.S. while the new cat came with clamps I had to pay a local shop $30 to weld it because I couldn't get the clamps tight enough to eliminate an exhaust leak.
It is finally done. I got a new cat put in there and passed just fine. It was $450 and I gave him a little extra for being quick. Honestly much cheaper than I expectd. (YES WE ALL KNOW IT WOULD COST WAY LESS OUTSIDE CALIFORNIA). She has a fresh 2021 sticker on the plate now.
Glad I could steer you in that direction. You'll really have to keep an eye on that CAT as the laws get tougher and they start squeezing those numbers tighter. You might be replacing it every few years just to pass.
quote
Originally posted by eelecurb:
If you haven't replaced the catalytic converter yet check this out.... I also have an 88 Formula V6. Cat was plugged - full of honeycomb but all broke into pieces. Purchased and installed myself (simple ) the direct replacement V6 cat from www.rodneydickman.com for $149.95 and turned around and sold the old one to Www.rrcats.com for $145. They even paid for shipping to send it to them. Net cost $4.95. Win/win.
P.S. while the new cat came with clamps I had to pay a local shop $30 to weld it because I couldn't get the clamps tight enough to eliminate an exhaust leak.
Remember, this is California. From that same webpage on Rodney's site:
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 12-20-2020).]
Originally posted by statue4: It is finally done. I got a new cat put in there and passed just fine. It was $450 and I gave him a little extra for being quick. Honestly much cheaper than I expectd. (YES WE ALL KNOW IT WOULD COST WAY LESS OUTSIDE CALIFORNIA). She has a fresh 2021 sticker on the plate now.
Now Make sure you're not running rich or leak or "burning" coolant from things like iffy intake or head gaskets. Doing that will kill the new cat fast and fail next year.
Also Wrong sealers used w/ gasket replacements can poison the O2 sensor and cat causing same problem. Example: "dead" O2 sensor for several reasons often won't set codes but make engine running wrong and kill the cat.
At minimum replace O2 and fix/clean all "grounds" in engine bay as said above.
