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B&M supercharger by Coolkoolpyle
Started on: 10-01-2020 09:31 PM
Replies: 53 (1065 views)
Last post by: jdv on 11-19-2020 05:56 PM
Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-01-2020 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anyone have one of these on their fiero?

I have questions.

------------------
Donald Pyle

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post10-02-2020 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I run one of these superchargers on a 340 Mopar. What would you like to know about them?. It would probably be overkill on the 2.8L.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Report this Post10-02-2020 10:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sledcaddieSend a Private Message to sledcaddieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've read about people swapping out supercharged V6's into Fieros from other vehicles. I always wondered if there was some kit, which supercharged the existing engine in the Fiero. Is that what this is?
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-02-2020 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's a kit built for the rear wheel drive 2.8 Camaro

It's out of production now but this unit is still new

If you look closely you will see it's a small supercharger and perfectly sized for the small V6
with a 2.8 intake manifold cast by B&M for this kit
that they engineered.

I have built engines professionally for over 30 years.
I specialize in high performance and antique engines.
I machine and assemble every aspect of the engines I build and

What I'm asking for is someone that has retrofitted this kit to the transverse 2.8 in the fiero.

I would like to know about the modifications if any needed to
accommodate this unit to the car.

I'm thinking I will need to make room for the drive pulley on the chassis but would first like to talk with someone that has one on their fiero.

B&M made quite a few of these 2.8 kits and I've seen several pictures of fieros with them.

I had hoped to find someone here that has had some experience installing one
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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-02-2020 12:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As far as I am aware, it hasn't ever been done.
You will loose the rear decklid (At least the portion that covers the engine) and probably need to trim the driver's side frame rail for the belt. With the drive offset to the rear side of the engine, it might not clear the strut tower.

Time to get out the tape measure and doing some first pass measurements to see if it has any chance of fitting w/o major surgery.
Since this blower kit and Fieros have been out for 25+ years and it never became a popular swap, there probably is a reason why...
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Spadesluck
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Report this Post10-02-2020 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not sure I have seen much talk about this setup on a 2.8 Fiero. People bring up turbos most of the time and even then its rare to see a completed car with one. If you feel froggy just give it a go. However, most are going to recommend you just go a different motor all together because the time and money spent on that may not be worth it in the end. At the end of the day its your car and money, do what you want. If I had that sitting around I would probably give it a try as well.
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-02-2020 02:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They were used on a lot of pre 85 S10s and Camaros.
They really aren't compatible with the factory fuel injection on the fieros.

This kit came with a holley carburetor
I will eliminate the emmisions and use a holley sniper EFI instead.

They are self tuning and I've found them to be exceptional HP producers on the dyno.

I will likely build a adapter to keep the system under the hood that puts the injector body basically in the same location as the original throttle body in a sidedraft configuration.

I've done similar side mounted installs of the holley fuel injection and it worked flawlessly.

Once I've got the whole thing installed and running properly it will be removed and replaced onto a 3.4 I have waiting.

No point in putting it in until I have the induction worked out.

If anyone is interested I could easily document the installation.

Of course any one with experience installing one of these on a fiero would be welcome advice.

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fierosound
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Report this Post10-02-2020 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Coolkoolpyle:

If anyone is interested I could easily document the installation.



We always want to see unique installs in progress.

------------------
My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post10-02-2020 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe that B&M unit has a 139 cu inch capacity. Its not as efficient as the Eaton M90 but being bigger it should put out more boost. I see no way of efficient mounting this on a stock 2.8L in a Fiero.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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OntarioKev
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Report this Post10-02-2020 11:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OntarioKevSend a Private Message to OntarioKevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What sort of power have you pulled out of a 2.8 with this kit, since you have a lot of experience with it?
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sledcaddie
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Report this Post10-03-2020 10:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sledcaddieSend a Private Message to sledcaddieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm sure a lot of people here on PFF would be interested in seeing your progress. Over the past 30 years, there have been an infinite number of alterations done to a Fiero engine . From previous comments, this appears to be something new.

What general area are you in in Iowa?
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-03-2020 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I consistently get about 8.5 lbs of boost from these superchargers on a 2.8

The entire unit sits 1/2 inch lower than the original fuel injection

My car is a Ferrari F355 replica.
It has additional clearence under the hood

The strut tower must be modified and a smaller coil over shock upgrade to make the room for the modifications to the strut tower
(already done)

Basically it needs trimmed back a few inches on the forward inside corner
Rewelded to close off the tower from the engine compartment and some extra bracing to ensure structural integrity of the tower.

Compared to the four link and full tubs I put into my SS Nova it will be a easy modification

As for the fuel injection I have mounted the holley sniper unit as a side draft and located it in roughly the same place as the original throttle body to make the original throttle linkage easy to hook up.
The 90degree upper manifold to supercharger is a easy build
With some good skills at cutting, bending and welding the hood clearence is not a problem..

With no emmisions
A free flowing exhaust
A matching camshaft
and the new holley sniper two bbl EFI I can pull about a additional 100 hp from a 2.8

Once fitted and functional
The 2.8 comes out and a iron head 3.4 will go in its place

In the rear wheel drive version I've pulled a peak hp of 276 and peak tq of 262 ft lbs. From the 3.6 with 8 lbs of boost.

Of course there are lots of details I'm leaving out

butt hey

I'm a professional engine builder

You can't expect me to give out my exact blueprint.

All my personal vehicles get a 50shot nitrous set up

Because superchargers lose some power in the heating of the air fuel charge the 50 hp kit reclaims another 10 to 15% more total power over the 50 because it acts like a super intercooler and dropped the air/fuel temperature significantly when the system is engaged.

I do not have a exact figure for the n2o as I don't dyno nitrous systems

I'm starting this build sometime in the next four weeks as I'm just finishing up a turbo charged supra and then I have a BB chevy to do for a customer.

Gotta pay the bills before I play on my toys.

I will video document the entire build and post links for those that are interested.
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-03-2020 11:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am located deep in the cornfields of SW Iowa
about a hour south of Des Moines

There are only three things you'll find out this way

Cornfields
Racetracks
and
Casey's General Stores

and not always in that order.
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Report this Post10-03-2020 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DimeMachineSend a Private Message to DimeMachineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wouldn't SC a 2.8 fiero. I have seen more 2.8's spin rod bearings for no good reason through the decades. I have had 2 of them in my life and heard of plenty others. 3800SC is the ticket IMO.
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-03-2020 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They do have weak rods
The bolts are small and total crap

That's why I machine .080 off the outside of a SBC rod and use arp rod bolts

Same in every other way other than the needed removal of the side material and pressing in a nice bushing so the wrist pin floats in the small end of the rod..

Easy fix

Use some nice eagle or crower rods
Modify a SBC main girdle (just cut off the front section and the rest fits like it was designed for the 60degree engines)
and use some arp studs and you got a bottom end that will take 350+ hp all day long.
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-03-2020 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Machine the heads to take SBC screw in studs
Use SBF 1.6 roller rockers and SBC valves and you got a fierce top end to match.

3800 is a decent motor
but

It has very limited performance parts available
You get what you get and not much more.

For a guy that builds 1000+ hp engines

260 hp just isn't going to cut it


the 60 degree V6 is so compatible with SBC components with little modification the performance upgrades possible are near limitless.


In my opinion many rushed into the 3800 swap because they were told the 60 degree had no real upgrades available to make it a worthy competitor.

That's simply just not true.

With a custom stroker crank I built one two years ago that was a even 4.0 that cranked out nearly 300hp

That's getting into V8 territory


So while the 3800 is a very nice set up
It is not the only option available if you want more than 250hp
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-03-2020 12:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Machine the heads to take SBC screw in studs
Use SBF 1.6 roller rockers and SBC valves and you got a fierce top end to match.

3800 is a decent motor
but

It has very limited performance parts available
You get what you get and not much more.

For a guy that builds 1000+ hp engines

260 hp just isn't going to cut it


the 60 degree V6 is so compatible with SBC components with little modification the performance upgrades possible are near limitless.


In my opinion many rushed into the 3800 swap because they were told the 60 degree had no real upgrades available to make it a worthy competitor.

That's simply just not true.

With a custom stroker crank I built one two years ago that was a even 4.0 that cranked out nearly 300hp

That's getting into V8 territory


So while the 3800 is a very nice set up
It is not the only option available if you want more than 250hp
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post10-03-2020 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Coolkoolpyle:

Machine the heads to take SBC screw in studs
Use SBF 1.6 roller rockers and SBC valves and you got a fierce top end to match.

3800 is a decent motor
but

It has very limited performance parts available
You get what you get and not much more.

For a guy that builds 1000+ hp engines

260 hp just isn't going to cut it


the 60 degree V6 is so compatible with SBC components with little modification the performance upgrades possible are near limitless.


In my opinion many rushed into the 3800 swap because they were told the 60 degree had no real upgrades available to make it a worthy competitor.

That's simply just not true.

With a custom stroker crank I built one two years ago that was a even 4.0 that cranked out nearly 300hp

That's getting into V8 territory


So while the 3800 is a very nice set up
It is not the only option available if you want more than 250hp

Forum member Darkhorizon (Scott) ran a 9.87 @142 mph 1/4 mile with his 3800 turbo engine in his Fiero. I would guess that he was making about 700 HP. The video is on You Tube

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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OntarioKev
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Report this Post10-03-2020 04:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OntarioKevSend a Private Message to OntarioKevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
With an Intercooler, 3.0" pulley and bigger injectors I put down 316 whp, and 365 ft/lbs of tq. Working on my new setup with a decent cam and heads from ZZP, and a much smaller pulley.

People who convert to turbos make 600 whp easily out of the 3800, on stock bottom ends no less.

What your doing is certainly very interesting and unique, but I still believe the 3800 is a better platform for the Fiero.

I mean a turbo V8 is a great engine to make 1000 hp+, but thats not really what you would want in a Fiero IMO, I mean 400Whp in the Fiero gets sketchy on the street
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Report this Post10-03-2020 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by OntarioKev:

With an Intercooler, 3.0" pulley and bigger injectors I put down 316 whp, and 365 ft/lbs of tq. Working on my new setup with a decent cam and heads from ZZP, and a much smaller pulley.

People who convert to turbos make 600 whp easily out of the 3800, on stock bottom ends no less.

What your doing is certainly very interesting and unique, but I still believe the 3800 is a better platform for the Fiero.

I mean a turbo V8 is a great engine to make 1000 hp+, but thats not really what you would want in a Fiero IMO, I mean 400Whp in the Fiero gets sketchy on the street


Different strokes for different folks right? It is tough to tell an engine guy he cant do that, just going to push him to do it even more. Regardless of what is "suggested" do what makes you happy. If any of us was smart with our money we would steer clear of building cars, especially old Fieros. haha I say if you do it document it and post it up!
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Report this Post10-03-2020 06:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:
It is tough to tell an engine guy he cant do that, just going to push him to do it even more.


I was expecting to take flak for doing a turbo V6 project from the naysayers here... I mostly kept quiet about it, and then shared my project once it was well underway.

It's easier to show people what you've done, versus thinking out loud.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-03-2020).]

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Report this Post10-03-2020 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will be sure to get lots of documentation as I go.

And yes it's easily possible to build power like that with a turbo.

We were building 1000 hp supra motors 20 years ago
With a two stage turbo and about 36 lbs of boost big power is easily achievable.

You can't operate something like that around town.

No way your using pump gas
and
those turbos won't last long with street driving

There's a reason supercharging is the preferred boost by auto manufacturers.
They last.

Turbos are awesome power builders but not so great at long life.

As a general rule I use turbos for racing
and
superchargers for street


So I'm calling apples to oranges on that

Two completely different animals.

Racing engines are not to be compared to street engines.

I own my own machine shop and have far more freedom to play with ideas.

I already said the 3800 was a great motor

What I'm doing is proving that it isn't the only option for great performance.
That the 60 degree V6 has lots more modifications available to it than most people realize.
and

It's cheap to do compared to other options

I'm thinking perhaps I should do some videos on the subject.

I'm a pretty busy guy but maybe over the winter I'll find the time to show the 60degree guys the tricks to power and long life.
(there are a couple of oiling system mods that are game changers in the bottom end)
Especially the 2.8.

Maybe I should do one of those "how to Hotrod the 60* V6"
books you see on the more popular engines.

In any case I'm excited to get started

More than anything
I really enjoy projects like this.
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Report this Post10-03-2020 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
GM's Chevy Power Manual when engine came out.
http://fieroinfo.com/manual...0V6_Power_Manual.pdf
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OntarioKev
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Report this Post10-04-2020 04:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OntarioKevSend a Private Message to OntarioKevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would argue that supercharging is only the preferred method for domestic V8 auto manufactures. Almost all foreign manufacturers currently use turbos for their street cars, as do the domestics on any engine other than the v8.

Turbos have come so far superchargers are now a niche market limited to a few models.

Dont get me wrong I enjoy superchargers as well, but they are going away unfortunately.

I think the 3800 V6 is the best performance option for anyone that doesnt want to touch engine internals and has limited fabrication skills (this clearly isnt you).

Any engine out there can make power if you are willing to put the time and money into it. In your experience if you wanted a reasonably reliable (modified car level, not factory level of reliability) 300 Whp, with at least the same Wtq out of the 2.8, what is required?
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Report this Post10-04-2020 11:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sledcaddieSend a Private Message to sledcaddieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OntarioKev:

Dont get me wrong I enjoy superchargers as well, but they are going away unfortunately.

According to Automobile Magazine, there are currently 19 car models available with superchargers, including: Shelby Mustang, Camaro ZL1, Challenger Hellcat, Charger Hellcat, Jaguar, Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk, Range Rover SVR, Lotus Evora, among others.

Most factory installed turbos are usually not set at a very high pressure, to improve longevity.

Just sayin'....

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OntarioKev
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Report this Post10-04-2020 04:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OntarioKevSend a Private Message to OntarioKevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Now go to the trouble of counting models with a turbo, and compare the numbers...
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Patrick
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Report this Post10-04-2020 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a '98 JDM Subaru Impreza WRX STi, which is turbocharged from the factory. Just out of curiosity, I was seeing what was available in regards to a supercharger for the boxer engine. I watched a few videos, and what struck me the most ...was the whine!





I like what a supercharger can do, but I don't think I could tolerate listening to that racket for too long.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-04-2020).]

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Report this Post10-04-2020 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The whine is from the gearing in the centrifugal supercharger

By design the spin very fast
and
that requires some serious overdrive gears to achieve actual boost.

They tend to really whip up the air too
Generating friction related heat on top of the compression related heat.

If there is 50 degrees of temperature in one cubic foot of air and you compress it to one half cubic foot you will have a temp of 100 degrees.

There is the same amount of thermal energy
It's just in half the space.
Thereby doubling the ambient temperature in that space.

In reality the math is a bit more complicated than that but you get the basic principal.

Now add friction.

Yes friction

If air can burn up a rock falling to earth then the leading edge of the compressor impeller (moving well past the speed of sound)
is getting pretty damn hot.

Roots superchargers don't nearly have this problem.
Because they are generally mounted on a hot engine so the air will pick up additional manifold heat but not usually enough to need a intercooler like a turbo or centrifugal compressor.

Everyone assumes the turbo heats up the charge because the exhaust heat. Not so much. The air is passing too fast to allow much thermal transfer.

If it did all that cool outside air would drop the exhaust heat significantly.

If you've ever been under the hood of a turbo charged engine you would certainly notice they are damn hot.

Very little of the heat was carried away. And what was only passes back thru as exhaust.

From a physics standpoint roots and especially screw compressors will be most efficient at creating boost with the least amount of heat generation.

Why do so many asian made cars have turbos?

Simple

It's cheep.

In most asian countries
(Especially japan)
There is a legal limit on how many miles you can put on a engine.

If a engine must be replaced in its entirety at 60k miles
The relative short lifespans of the turbo design isn't a real concern.

Find me a turbo with 200k miles on it and I'll almost guarantee it's been rebuilt or replaced

twice.

But as the 3800 guys can tell you

Do a good job of maintaining you engine and the supercharger will likely last the life of the motor.

The original 6-71 blowers came off two stroke diesel engines made in the early forties.
Ran half a million miles

Then in the late sixties and seventies
Some hot rodder pulled it off
Threw some new bearings in it and pushed it another 100k or more.

I've got more miles on my original gmc 6-71 than most of you will ever put on any one car

and it had 40 years on its original production duty on a big diesel.

Unfortunately
They are much more expensive to manufacture and machine than turbos so they will always be only for the higher performance engines.


Otherwise they would be used on everything
We would be getting more out of smaller engines and using less fuel to get where we are going.

Bottom line
auto manufacturers are cheapskates.

As for the earlier question of how to get 300 hp out of a 2.8

I'll get into that one later when I'm done with helping my kids do homework.
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OntarioKev
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Report this Post10-04-2020 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OntarioKevSend a Private Message to OntarioKevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Please do, I am very interested in learning about it from someone with hands on experience!
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-04-2020 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
300 hp.

I start there.

Using basic laws of physics I can easily determine the amount of fuel that would be required to produce the target

Once I know how much fuel I must burn I turn to volumetric efficiency.

How many cubic inches of air must be consumed to burn the needed fuel.

At 2.8L the efficiency is well past 100%

It is at that point you must consider how you are going to achieve this efficiency.

You will have to re calculate fuel at this point because there will be a significant parasitic loss from whatever method you choose to produce the volumetric efficiency you need to reach your target.

Parasitic loss can be easily calculated for things like oil pressure or coolant pump electrical generation ect

Now granted each engine design has slightly different costs to your overall energy loos but not much.

It takes a given amount of energy to pressurize oil per pound.

Laws of physics
No way around it.

You can lower it's cost by using thinner oil
or
modifications to the oiling system to combat restrictions in the design
but
the vast majority of the energy used is simply the physical cost to move the oil at it's set pressure.
Can't change that.

So
Knowing the costs to your overall figure you are now well over 400 hp in fuel required.

You can easily design a configuration that when applied to any engine will allow you to build any power output you desire

Within the laws of physics

Now you have to take that energy generated and divide it by the number of cylinders to determine how much per cylinder you must make. In this case its about 78 hp.

You must have components to withstand the forces applied

No way a stock rod is going to hold up
or
piston

but since you know exactly how much power it must deal with you can easily choose the correct part like a pro.

Now

Before you make any sort of move you now must look at how the energy is transfered

The 2.8 has a 3 inch stroke and 3.5 inch bore

You must effectively transfer that power from reciprocating into rotating.

There have been many debates about ideal bore to stroke ratio
It all comes together as a nice ratio of 75% the bore size in stroke.

So at 2.625 as being ideal stroke for the bore size you either accept the loss of energy in that transfer
or correct it.

When you add stroke to a engine taking it out of this range you make more power for the extra cubic inches but lose some due to the over stroke on the bore

So

You need a bigger bore.

A 3.1 bloch at +060 is where I'd start
That puts you in the ideal stroke as 2.800 range

So my short block would consist of a 3.1 block bored .060
H beam SBC rods machined to fit
a custom piston from JE

So we know you need a certain amount of boost to achieve the goal power output

We have lowered that number a bit because we just added some cubic inches to the engine

but not much.

Meaning I had to sit down and recalculate my numbers

I have to know how much air I must burn in a known amount of cylinder volume to determine what kind of boost I need to determine what kind of compression I'll be running.

Hence what information I give my piston guy

So to sum up what I got so far is a shortblock with 6" rods as they are of the closest ratio to stroke for ideal rod angle

So that's the shortblock
Of course I'm using arp hardware
A main girdle for cap support and a well balanced assembly clearenced correctly.

It's bed time

If your still interested in hearing more I'll continue with valvetrain tomorrow.

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Patrick
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Report this Post10-05-2020 03:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Coolkoolpyle:

If your still interested in hearing more I'll continue with valvetrain tomorrow.



For sure! ...and thanks for the quick lesson on supercharger vs turbo.
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Report this Post10-07-2020 10:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for klorkClick Here to Email klorkSend a Private Message to klorkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wait a minute. Your telling me that a roots supercharger is more efficient then a turbocharger? And that turbos dont hold up to abuse? You have got to be kidding me. Every big rig going down the road has had turbos on them for decades and they last for hundreds of thousands of miles under far more abuse then that little b and m blow and more then an old school detroit diesel blower. The old 2 stroke diesels needed a blower to get air into the cylinder. They didnt really create much in the way of boost at all. They had sloppy clearances and were not under much stress. Volvo has been running turbochargers as an option on every model of car since the early 80s and they have no problem going a couple hundred thousand miles on a factory turbo. Ford was big into turbos in the 80s with the turbo 2.3 and those turbos are very reliable once they started doing the water cooled turbos around 1983 and they put out at least double the boost of most factory supercharged vehicles. Ford uses turbos on virtually every model now along with Audi, BMW, Honda and many others No manufacture would be using turbos in this day and age if they needed to be replaced at 100k miles. And your trying to tell me Japan only makes cars to last 60k? Who has had some of the longest lasting cars on the road since the late 80's and especially through the 90's? Japan.

And roots superchargers are the most inefficient way of making boost. The heat up the air more then any other supercharger or turbo. Twin screw is a way better design and makes low end boost just like a roots but with far less heat. There is a reason high end superchargers are not roots style anymore.
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Coolkoolpyle
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Report this Post10-09-2020 04:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CoolkoolpyleClick Here to Email CoolkoolpyleSend a Private Message to CoolkoolpyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your obviously a turbo guy

Big rig turbos are 5000 or more just to rebuild for a reason

They are made of aerospace quality materials
They are regularly serviced and maintained with new parts their entire lives.

It's big business working with commercial turbos

Volvo is the least cheapskate manufacturer in the world and in stock form their turbos don't put out big boost numbers.
but do tend to live longer than most

Hence why they are used so often in performance engines.

And yes superchargers do make heat when boost levels get high

But if you think just cause someone said it in a book it's true

Yeah. I saw that claim too

So I started temping my high presser side to see how much

Not much at all

Didn't even become a real problem untill boost hit about 14lbs
and even then it wasn't so bad to require a intercooler

Then we hit 21lbs
That's when the heat really showed up
along with substantial mechanical losses driving the supercharger.

The intercooler was invented and primarily used for turbos.

Why

To manage the excessive heat.

I'm not saying they are bad
Just not practical for low boost

We are not talking ultra high rpm racing engines with 36lbs of boost burning ethanol.

On the street
It's about getting off the line

If turbos were so great at making power from the get go they would be on top fuel dragsters.

Indy cars? Hell yes
Practical

Even decent on lower power drag cars

But a street motor?

That supercharger is going to make tire smoking torque from 1500rpm up to 5000

5000...
Isn't that about the time your turbo is starting to make power?
Case its when I'm shifting.

Great for light small engine cars that don't need a lot of torque

But no one ever said they were bad

Just their not the most practical choice for a v6

I'm not building a 10,000 rpm motor

I'll make all my ponys down low and shift fast


That's what it's about on a fun street car anyways.


Not like you can drive it 150mph so you can get the rpm to hit full boost in fifth gear around town

In almost every turbo v8 I've driven there was a definite feeling like I never really got to play in the big power zone
I was speeding by the time it was really coming on and had to back off

Blowers pucker yr butt from the start and just have that fun feeling all the time

If your into turbos


Great
They are definitely fun
and often a challenge

Certainly capable of making tremendous power at high boosts

In the end

It's all about how you like your vehicle to perform and how you drive it.
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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post10-09-2020 05:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Great thread- very informative!

It would be awesome to see someone document and build a 300 HP blown 3.1 V6 for sure.... Best of luck with the build, and please document and provide pictures if you can....
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Report this Post10-09-2020 06:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Proff used to talk about this as the fiero supercharger and it had been done but no sign of it in a decade or so. I would always say you mean 3.8 L67 and he would say no it is for camero 2.8.
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quote
Originally posted by Coolkoolpyle:

I consistently get about 8.5 lbs of boost from these superchargers on a 2.8

The entire unit sits 1/2 inch lower than the original fuel injection

My car is a Ferrari F355 replica.
It has additional clearence under the hood

The strut tower must be modified and a smaller coil over shock upgrade to make the room for the modifications to the strut tower
(already done)

Basically it needs trimmed back a few inches on the forward inside corner
Rewelded to close off the tower from the engine compartment and some extra bracing to ensure structural integrity of the tower.

Compared to the four link and full tubs I put into my SS Nova it will be a easy modification

As for the fuel injection I have mounted the holley sniper unit as a side draft and located it in roughly the same place as the original throttle body to make the original throttle linkage easy to hook up.
The 90degree upper manifold to supercharger is a easy build
With some good skills at cutting, bending and welding the hood clearence is not a problem..

With no emmisions
A free flowing exhaust
A matching camshaft
and the new holley sniper two bbl EFI I can pull about a additional 100 hp from a 2.8

Once fitted and functional
The 2.8 comes out and a iron head 3.4 will go in its place

In the rear wheel drive version I've pulled a peak hp of 276 and peak tq of 262 ft lbs. From the 3.6 with 8 lbs of boost.

Of course there are lots of details I'm leaving out

butt hey

I'm a professional engine builder

You can't expect me to give out my exact blueprint.

All my personal vehicles get a 50shot nitrous set up

Because superchargers lose some power in the heating of the air fuel charge the 50 hp kit reclaims another 10 to 15% more total power over the 50 because it acts like a super intercooler and dropped the air/fuel temperature significantly when the system is engaged.

I do not have a exact figure for the n2o as I don't dyno nitrous systems

I'm starting this build sometime in the next four weeks as I'm just finishing up a turbo charged supra and then I have a BB chevy to do for a customer.

Gotta pay the bills before I play on my toys.

I will video document the entire build and post links for those that are interested.


Thanks for post and nice work on the car.
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Report this Post10-09-2020 10:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for klorkClick Here to Email klorkSend a Private Message to klorkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Coolkoolpyle:

Your obviously a turbo guy

Big rig turbos are 5000 or more just to rebuild for a reason

They are made of aerospace quality materials
They are regularly serviced and maintained with new parts their entire lives.

It's big business working with commercial turbos

Volvo is the least cheapskate manufacturer in the world and in stock form their turbos don't put out big boost numbers.
but do tend to live longer than most

Hence why they are used so often in performance engines.

And yes superchargers do make heat when boost levels get high

But if you think just cause someone said it in a book it's true

Yeah. I saw that claim too

So I started temping my high presser side to see how much

Not much at all

Didn't even become a real problem untill boost hit about 14lbs
and even then it wasn't so bad to require a intercooler

Then we hit 21lbs
That's when the heat really showed up
along with substantial mechanical losses driving the supercharger.

The intercooler was invented and primarily used for turbos.

Why

To manage the excessive heat.
Pretty much any modern high performance supercharged engine uses an intercooler too. If its not on there its because of cost

I'm not saying they are bad
Just not practical for low boost

We are not talking ultra high rpm racing engines with 36lbs of boost burning ethanol.

On the street
It's about getting off the line

If turbos were so great at making power from the get go they would be on top fuel dragsters.
Top fuel cars HAVE to use superchargers. The rules dictate that they are not allowed to use turbos. I can almost guarantee they would make more power with turbos over a supercharger.
Indy cars? Hell yes
Practical

Even decent on lower power drag cars

But a street motor?

That supercharger is going to make tire smoking torque from 1500rpm up to 5000

5000...
Isn't that about the time your turbo is starting to make power?
Case its when I'm shifting.
Have you driven a turbo car that was made after 1970? Hell even my 1986 XR4Ti with a single cam 2.3 made 20 lbs of boost by 3000 RPM on the stock old school mid 80s turbo. New turbo cars are making peak torque under 2000 RPM. The new BMW m3 makes over 400 ft lbs of torque from 1800 RPM to 5500 RPM and there are a ton of example of this.
Great for light small engine cars that don't need a lot of torque

But no one ever said they were bad

Just their not the most practical choice for a v6

I'm not building a 10,000 rpm motor

I'll make all my ponys down low and shift fast


That's what it's about on a fun street car anyways.


Not like you can drive it 150mph so you can get the rpm to hit full boost in fifth gear around town

In almost every turbo v8 I've driven there was a definite feeling like I never really got to play in the big power zone
I was speeding by the time it was really coming on and had to back off
Probably because the turbo was chosen to make big power. Your not going to have a turbo that lights off at 1500 RPM and make 2000 hp. But if you want a more modest 6-800 hp absolutly. You can get a correct sized turbo to light off at low rpm

Blowers pucker yr butt from the start and just have that fun feeling all the time

If your into turbos


Great
They are definitely fun
and often a challenge

Certainly capable of making tremendous power at high boosts

In the end

It's all about how you like your vehicle to perform and how you drive it.


I am not saying you dont know your blowers but you have some really really old conceptions on turbos.
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fierosound
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Report this Post10-09-2020 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We've had the turbo vs supercharger argument before...
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/095858.html

Both, whether turbo or supercharger, increase the power enough that you still come out ahead after the "losses" of making it.
They both have their uses and place. If one were THAT superior to the other, the "other" would not exist.
At least with a supercharger, after you put MORE AIR INTO your engine, you aren't also corking it up at the exhaust end.

You don't see superchargers on many econo-boxes...
Turbo cars http://www.autobytel.com/co...k-turbo-cars-126123/
Supercharged cars http://www.autobytel.com/ca...ars-for-2015-128231/

But this is Coolkoolpyle's build thread.
I'd prefer to hear about his plans and build rather than read people arguing with him over his choice.

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 10-10-2020).]

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Honest Don
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Report this Post10-09-2020 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Honest DonSend a Private Message to Honest DonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Looking forward to seeing it run!


Turbos aren’t in Top Fuel because the rules don’t call for them. You’re seeing a lot more use in Pro Mod and the Sportsman classes though.

FWIW, on my turbo 2.8 I can get 4psi by 2500rpm in good weather. Full boost usually by 3900-ish in first gear.
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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post10-09-2020 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi,
I have one of those B&M blowers on my 4.5 engine in my 84 Fiero. Looking forward to your build and the information you are supplying!
Good luck,
Cheers
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