Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  rust on rear passenger side subframe

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
rust on rear passenger side subframe by tricktickler
Started on: 06-23-2020 08:47 PM
Replies: 17 (266 views)
Last post by: tricktickler on 07-07-2020 07:42 PM
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-23-2020 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been trying a while to find threads about this and have, but I need specific questions answered.




Question #1 is can you weld/reinforce the rear subframe with out screwing up the nature of the part and wheel alignment?
#2 how easy/hard is it to take the rear subframe off the car aside from the fact the car probably has to be pretty high off the ground?

Its a slow project cause I am on a tight budget. Had it since April last year and am just trying to get it safe to drive. Maybe another year if hope isn't lost I will try to replace the bushings and renew the suspension.

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-23-2020 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
question #3 is there a better place to jack it up from? since I've been using that subframe and it is slowing the project down when I saw that crack it hasnt been off the ground much.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 29125
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 549
Rate this member

Report this Post06-24-2020 02:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Find another cradle is better.

"Fastest?" "Easiest?"
Support engine from top to drop the cradle.
pop BJ and tie rod from knuckle, leave rest of suspension alone.
pop exhaust joint(s) so exhaust move w/ cradle.

If done careful likely still need alignment.

⚠️ Warning: Support engine needs proper tools plus have to lift the car too. Either can easily kill you if they drop.
Not a job for nubes or anyone w/o a clue.
Even w/ proper engine support... Find extra chains etc to install them as backup that if support parts fail.

Otherwise treat as engine replace job and drop the entire rear and fix everything needed while out and easy to work on.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave

IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-24-2020 03:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Find another cradle is better.

"Fastest?" "Easiest?"
Support engine from top to drop the cradle.
pop BJ and tie rod from knuckle, leave rest of suspension alone.
pop exhaust joint(s) so exhaust move w/ cradle.

If done careful likely still need alignment.

⚠️ Warning: Support engine needs proper tools plus have to lift the car too. Either can easily kill you if they drop.
Not a job for nubes or anyone w/o a clue.
Even w/ proper engine support... Find extra chains etc to install them as backup that if support parts fail.

Otherwise treat as engine replace job and drop the entire rear and fix everything needed while out and easy to work on.




Ok So it is a bigger project than expected. Thanks.
I need to get it driving at least to just make it to a better place to work on it.
IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-24-2020 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm pretty sad to realize the extent of the project over a whole year of having the car lol. I think I need to work some overtime to get it done. Like an engine hoist might not be a bad idea if I want to do the work myself.
But I want to clarify, the existing subframe probably can be welded if the only rust is what is shown in that picture and that'd save me $300-$500. I can't weld myself, but I can find a welder. Or $500(+an engine hoist) really isn't that bad considering how I seem to be committed to the thing.
IP: Logged
DimeMachine
Member
Posts: 754
From: Eastern Metro, Minnesota, USA
Registered: Sep 2011


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-28-2020 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DimeMachineSend a Private Message to DimeMachineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have seen a lot of Minnesota Fieros (rust belt) over the past couple of decades.

If you cradle is rusted through like that, I suspect the rear part of your spaceframe is toast as well. Pull back the rear trunk carpet on each side of the trunk and post photos of what you see - this will be very telling of the spaceframe condition.

Fingers crossed yours is O.K.

------------------
84/87 NB, 3800SC, E-85, VS Cam, 2.8 Pulley, 4T65E-HD, HP Tuners, AEM Wideband, Regal GS Gauges, S-10 Brake Booster. 1/4 mile -11.85 at 114mph

IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-02-2020 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:

I have seen a lot of Minnesota Fieros (rust belt) over the past couple of decades.

If you cradle is rusted through like that, I suspect the rear part of your spaceframe is toast as well. Pull back the rear trunk carpet on each side of the trunk and post photos of what you see - this will be very telling of the spaceframe condition.

Fingers crossed yours is O.K.



I meant to work on it last week, but with the feeling like I need to address the engine cradle first, I tore off all the insulation. The trunk liner looks factory new underneath and besides the battery tray being obliterated, under the insulation there it looks mint. I am glad. Now I need to know if I have a lift and engine hoist, where can I lift the car up from to get the engine cradle off?

I am thinking of buying an engine hoist and doing the 2x4 method to lift it high enough in my backyard, getting it off and having a welder look at it. I don't want to get it on a lift only to have the welder say he can't fix it.


I did lose the pics I had taken earlier and the only way to see better is to take the body panels off, but with a mirror and some light I can make out that a lot of the car still is protected. I have only found those 2 rust spots and of course surface rust or rust on hardware.

IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-02-2020 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
to lift it with a 2x4 is it using the two factory lift spots? It might be best I just buy a used subframe, but I am not sure yet. I would like to see if a welder can fix it, but I have my doubts and thats why I probably want my own engine hoist and method of lifting it. Also there will be new bushings and recoating and replacing hardware if it comes off so I don't want to intrude on someones work space while I do those things myself.
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 29973
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 440
Rate this member

Report this Post07-02-2020 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tricktickler:

...the only way to see better is to take the body panels off, but with a mirror and some light I can make out that a lot of the car still is protected. I have only found those 2 rust spots and of course surface rust or rust on hardware.


You need to at least loosen the rear plastic wheel well liners and have a look in there at the upper frame rails.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-02-2020).]

IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2020 07:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I loosened the wheel well and its literally the same as taking a picture from below no?





IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2020 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

tricktickler

40 posts
Member since Apr 2019
I mean I can see a lot more with a mirror. I don't want to pull body panels off just to prove to you guys it isnt that bad. I don't have that kind of space. If I drop the cradle myself I'll use my backyard.

Also doesnt the pic of the cradle attaching to the body indicate it is just the cradle? You can see the cradle looks like crap, but what its attached to looks good.

[This message has been edited by tricktickler (edited 07-03-2020).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Patrick
Member
Posts: 29973
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 440
Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2020 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tricktickler:

I don't want to pull body panels off just to prove to you guys it isnt that bad.


I offered you advice, so that you could see for yourself whether or not the rear upper frame rails are rotted. If it's not worth ten minutes of your time to loosen the plastic wheel well liner to have a proper look (at least on the passenger side), then I sure as heck won't be concerned about it.
IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2020 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I offered you advice, so that you could see for yourself whether or not the rear upper frame rails are rotted. If it's not worth ten minutes of your time to loosen the plastic wheel well liner to have a proper look (at least on the passenger side), then I sure as heck won't be concerned about it.


brb I will just pull the whole wheel liner off and see what I see.
Edit. I dont know where my small philips screw driver is and its hot as balls. I don't know exactly what the upper frame rail looks like. I just can't find any other major rust.



[This message has been edited by tricktickler (edited 07-03-2020).]

IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2020 08:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I offered you advice, so that you could see for yourself whether or not the rear upper frame rails are rotted. If it's not worth ten minutes of your time to loosen the plastic wheel well liner to have a proper look (at least on the passenger side), then I sure as heck won't be concerned about it.


Also at this point I just want to know how I am going to lift this in my backyard with a 2x4. I just want to be safe.

I do not have faith in the current engine cradle being salvageable, but having one that is salvageable and one that I know I can buy used and prep before installing it is a worthy investment.
IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2020 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is this the upper frame rail?


the rust there is where the battery tray was.
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 29973
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 440
Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2020 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tricktickler:

Is this the upper frame rail?


I can't quite make out what I'm looking at. If that's the upper frame rail, try and look at the area further back towards the rear end.

Here are two images from This thread...

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I was at a friend's place looking over his recently purchased SBC '86 Fiero. I removed the inner fenders to have a look at the "hidden" areas. The driver's side was fine. The passenger side looked like this...



That's looking up towards the back of the car. It appears to be just the outer side of the frame rail box that's rusted (and a bit of the trunk sheet metal). This picture shows all the rust that is evident. The rust does not continue any further towards the front of the car.


 
quote
Originally posted by RWDPLZ:

For those of you who don't know, almost two years ago. a combination of Michigan rust and a parking lot hit-and-run left me without a drivable Fiero.



[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-03-2020).]

IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2020 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My hand is in the wheel well between the front plastic wheel well cover and pointed straight up at where the battery tray used to be and what I assume is indeed the frame rail which is fine. I have looked at the car with a tiny mirror and I can't find more even if I can't tell exactly what I am looking at. It all looks like its still coated.

Also at least for now a friday night where its getting late I'm not bothering to pull the rear wheel well to look at that again. I assume no water got in there as the rear of the cradle is fine and it is only where the louvers over the battery is where it got rusted and you can see from the trunk liner being pulled back there it has good metal anyway. Not worried about it.
I am worried about how I will specifically lift it with the rear higher than the front and I just don't want to wing it because its already been done. I can look around. Fine. But I thought I could get a simple response.

[This message has been edited by tricktickler (edited 07-03-2020).]

IP: Logged
tricktickler
Member
Posts: 40
From: NJ
Registered: Apr 2019


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-07-2020 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trickticklerClick Here to Email trickticklerSend a Private Message to trickticklerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I finally found this thread
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...160323-2-127748.html

and I believe it will answer my question about jacking it up.
I'll buy a used frame, fix it up then swap it in when its ready to go. Not sure if I want to get it driving so I can use someones cherry picker or buy my own. It only has a minor axle seal leak and there is/was an oil leak somewhere, but as long as I dont see fresh oil I am not really concerned enough to drop the engine yet.
IP: Logged

next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock