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4.9 e85 dyno by lou_dias
Started on: 06-06-2020 10:37 AM
Replies: 37 (527 views)
Last post by: lou_dias on 07-04-2020 12:26 AM
lou_dias
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Report this Post06-06-2020 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Base dyno after switching to E85...the problem was I solved my limp mode issue so now I'm lean... I had switched to E85 to compensate for limp mode. Turned out to be a bad TPS sensor and wiring...now I'm super lean..
Once this is fixed 200rwhp and 300ft*lbs should be possible. I am also running 17x9 wheels now which are 2 lbs heavier than the 18x8.5's I was running before. An old dyno when I was pig rich had me at 175/265 so with not tune I picked up 12hp just switching to E85...



I stand corrected. My old torque was at 265 so I edit the post from 275.... That means I gained 20 ft*lbs from going to E85 with no tune.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 06-08-2020).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-06-2020 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Base dyno after switching to E85...the problem was I solved my limp mode issue so now I'm lean... I had switched to E85 to compensate for limp mode. Turned out to be a bad TPS sensor and wiring...now I'm super lean..
Once this is fixed 200rwhp and 300ft*lbs should be possible. I am also running 17x9 wheels now which are 2 lbs heavier than the 18x8.5's I was running before. An old dyno when I was pig rich had me at 175/275 so with not tune I picked up 12hp just switching to E85...




For more fuel you will need to go into the VE vs MAP vs RPM table in the chip and increase the values but once you adjust for E85 you won't run well on std E10 gas. .

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
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Report this Post06-06-2020 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's ok, I no longer drive Fieros for fuel efficiency!
...just pure fun!
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Report this Post06-06-2020 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How did you find out you were in limp mode?
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Report this Post06-06-2020 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

How did you find out you were in limp mode?


Well, it would run like crap on startup. This was a Fiero Factory conversion so it had a constant SES light. I went thru the harness and fixed some issues over time and upgraded to an Allante intake and Bosch Design 3 injectors so I ended up turning down the BPW ~25-30% and now I need it back but not so much up top...
Still has a loose throttle actuator but runs good other than way too lean. I should run a tank of 89 octane...
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Report this Post06-06-2020 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dear1700Click Here to Email dear1700Send a Private Message to dear1700Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Or just go with aftermarket ecu and tune it yourself. You would be surprised how much power is limited with those ancient ecus and limited means of adjustments.
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Report this Post06-06-2020 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:


Well, it would run like crap on startup. This was a Fiero Factory conversion so it had a constant SES light. I went thru the harness and fixed some issues over time and upgraded to an Allante intake and Bosch Design 3 injectors so I ended up turning down the BPW ~25-30% and now I need it back but not so much up top...
Still has a loose throttle actuator but runs good other than way too lean. I should run a tank of 89 octane...


I may have some questions for you about this particular issue later on. I am building my 4.9 with an F40 trans at the moment. The car was originally a Fiero Factory conversion as well.

[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 06-09-2020).]

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Report this Post06-06-2020 08:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Spadesluck

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quote
Originally posted by dear1700:

Or just go with aftermarket ecu and tune it yourself. You would be surprised how much power is limited with those ancient ecus and limited means of adjustments.


You say that but the 4.9 is an older motor so there is no just easy plug and play aftermarket ecu.
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Report this Post06-06-2020 09:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WarlordsixClick Here to Email WarlordsixSend a Private Message to WarlordsixEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:


You say that but the 4.9 is an older motor so there is no just easy plug and play aftermarket ecu.


The F.A.S.T. EZ Multiport EFI Retro kit should work. I haven't tried it, but I'm considering it.

------------------
'87 Fiero 4.9 5-speed

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Report this Post06-06-2020 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is nothing wrong with the 4.9L ECM. It can be adjusted for fueling and timing across the entire RPM band for all MAP values. It has complete timing and fueling tables that can be adjusted/rewritten. You can even modify the 4T60e trans shift point and firmness. All you need is the Tunercat program, the program code and a prom programmer all of which can be purchased. You read the stock prom program load it into the editor and make any changes that you wish. Then you load the new program on a new chipTo solve the "limp home "issue run 12V to the power steering ECM pin input. Here is my setup for easily removing and inserting the eprom chip using the Moates adapter and a EZ prom (or flash memory) socket

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-06-2020).]

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Report this Post06-06-2020 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Warlordsix:


The F.A.S.T. EZ Multiport EFI Retro kit should work. I haven't tried it, but I'm considering it.



There is another that is trying out a stand alone ECU for the 4.9, I am following him to see how he does. A lot of these aftermarket ECU's have come a long way for sure.
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Report this Post06-06-2020 11:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dear1700Click Here to Email dear1700Send a Private Message to dear1700Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://youtu.be/WtMiwIQKS7g

I still have tuning to do and need bigger injectors, but it can be done quiet easily. Just dump the factory stuff, go ls coils and mount a 36-1 wheel up front with hall sensor.

Supercharger is optional
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Report this Post06-06-2020 11:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dear1700Click Here to Email dear1700Send a Private Message to dear1700Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dear1700

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quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:


There is another that is trying out a stand alone ECU for the 4.9, I am following him to see how he does. A lot of these aftermarket ECU's have come a long way for sure.


Speeduino, costs $150 and has four channel ignition/ four channel fuel. And you can tune via Bluetooth!
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Report this Post06-07-2020 12:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dear1700:

https://youtu.be/WtMiwIQKS7g

I still have tuning to do and need bigger injectors, but it can be done quiet easily. Just dump the factory stuff, go ls coils and mount a 36-1 wheel up front with hall sensor.

Supercharger is optional


Let us know how that Muncie holds up in the car!
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Report this Post06-07-2020 09:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My friend has TunerCat and is gonna grab the 4.9 file. He said it's only $23 for it so no issues tuning it. Hope to be back at the dyno within 2 weeks. This is a getrag 5 speed car. We has added the 12v to the PS wire on the ECM. Had sold the car in 2014 and bought it back about 2 years ago.

I have a lugnut that just spins so I can't put on stock wheels on right now to measure it's true(ish) power but 200/300 with 51 lbs wheels is pretty good. These tires are running 040 treadwear and the traction is amazing.

you can see it in action here with 56 lbs 17x10 wheels with 315/35R17 100 treadwear tires...in my last race I hit a bump in turn 3 and my rear end bounced hard thanks to my 500# springs...:

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 06-08-2020).]

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Report this Post06-07-2020 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Base dyno after switching to E85...the problem was I solved my limp mode issue so now I'm lean... I had switched to E85 to compensate for limp mode. Turned out to be a bad TPS sensor and wiring...now I'm super lean..
Once this is fixed 200rwhp and 300ft*lbs should be possible. I am also running 17x9 wheels now which are 2 lbs heavier than the 18x8.5's I was running before. An old dyno when I was pig rich had me at 175/275 so with not tune I picked up 12hp just switching to E85...



So, did you just put E-85 in the tank without any tunning?

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Report this Post06-08-2020 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


So, did you just put E-85 in the tank without any tunning?

That's how I roll! LOL! ;-)
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Report this Post06-08-2020 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

That's how I roll! LOL! ;-)


What injectors are you running and at what pressure.

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Report this Post06-08-2020 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
What injectors are you running and at what pressure.

I used some Ford Thunderbird 4.6 DOHC injectors. Stock pressure but they flow more because Ford rates them differently... Bought them along with a custom made fuel rail to mount them. Hasn't failed me yet!
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Report this Post06-08-2020 07:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

lou_dias

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Found my old dyno...

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Report this Post06-08-2020 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I used some Ford Thunderbird 4.6 DOHC injectors. Stock pressure but they flow more because Ford rates them differently... Bought them along with a custom made fuel rail to mount them. Hasn't failed me yet!


So they are 19# then. If you want to just use E85 without any tuning just get a set of 22# to get to your goal of 200WHP.
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Report this Post06-09-2020 12:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
So they are 19# then. If you want to just use E85 without any tuning just get a set of 22# to get to your goal of 200WHP.

Ah! But that's the beauty of using Ford #19 injectors. They are equivalent to GM 22#.
Also, I need to have my tuner adjust the voltages to match the Ford specs...
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Report this Post06-09-2020 07:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Ah! But that's the beauty of using Ford #19 injectors. They are equivalent to GM 22#.
Also, I need to have my tuner adjust the voltages to match the Ford specs...


The only way they would be equal to each other is if the Fords run on higher pressures that's why I asked what rail pressures is the engine running on.
If you were to install the 22# your dyno's AFR would've been right on target with no ECU VE adjustment instead of going extremely lean.
Also, every injector size spec is not fixed, they change proportionally with a change of rail pressure. The Fords #19 will not flow the same if the pressure is raised.
The higher the pressure you run them the less injector size you need. Right now you maxed out your 19# for the power you are making, if you increase your
fuel pressure another 5psi assuming you are running 45psi of fuel rail pressure, with the same 19# you shouldn't have any problems reaching 200WHP.
Of course, that's if the breathing capabilities of the engine is up to par with the fuel flow.

Keep it up Lou, I'm rooting for you!
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Report this Post06-09-2020 09:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I run my s2000 and my old GTP on e85 without any tune. All you need to do is roughly double the size of the injectors and let it rip! You'll want to see about 11.5-11.8 afr at wide open for max power on e85.
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Report this Post06-09-2020 10:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WarlordsixClick Here to Email WarlordsixSend a Private Message to WarlordsixEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I used some Ford Thunderbird 4.6 DOHC injectors. Stock pressure but they flow more because Ford rates them differently... Bought them along with a custom made fuel rail to mount them. Hasn't failed me yet!


Hey, Lou....tell us about this "custom made fuel rail." Photos would be great. Kinda interesting.

Thanks.

Ernie

------------------
'87 Fiero 4.9 5-speed

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Report this Post06-09-2020 01:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
The only way they would be equal to each other is if the Fords run on higher pressures that's why I asked what rail pressures is the engine running on.
If you were to install the 22# your dyno's AFR would've been right on target with no ECU VE adjustment instead of going extremely lean.
Also, every injector size spec is not fixed, they change proportionally with a change of rail pressure. The Fords #19 will not flow the same if the pressure is raised.
The higher the pressure you run them the less injector size you need. Right now you maxed out your 19# for the power you are making, if you increase your
fuel pressure another 5psi assuming you are running 45psi of fuel rail pressure, with the same 19# you shouldn't have any problems reaching 200WHP.
Of course, that's if the breathing capabilities of the engine is up to par with the fuel flow.

Keep it up Lou, I'm rooting for you!

They are essentially GM 22#. Trust me. Ford rates them at a different fuel pressure and that's why they work out that way. What happened is 10 years ago, I had someone turn down my BPW 15% once then another 15% to compensate for my limp mode. It was still rich with 87 octane. I was trying to overcome limp mode and the bigger injectors... So I have no worries I have enough injector. We'll just dial it back up while reducing fuel >3600 rpm.

So 10ish years ago with 30% fuel reduction on 87 octane, I was at 11:1 A/F ratio on the top end. Now you know why I felt comfortable just winging it with E85... However...the limp mode issue has been fixed. OOPS!

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 06-09-2020).]

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Report this Post06-09-2020 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Warlordsix:
Hey, Lou....tell us about this "custom made fuel rail." Photos would be great. Kinda interesting.

Thanks.

Ernie

I bought it off forum member 2feido back in 2008. You should probably PM him for details. I never bothered taking pics back then...I was hot to get the Allante intake installed.
It's sold purpose was to use the Bosch Design 3 injectors from the Thunderbird...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 06-09-2020).]

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Report this Post06-09-2020 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WarlordsixClick Here to Email WarlordsixSend a Private Message to WarlordsixEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I bought it off forum member 2feido back in 2008. You should probably PM him for details. I never bothered taking pics back then...I was hot to get the Allante intake installed.
It's sold purpose was to use the Bosch Design 3 injectors from the Thunderbird...



Hmmmm…..OK, as far as I know the Bosch III are direct replacements for the Caddy OEM injectors on the 4.9, no?
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Report this Post06-09-2020 04:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Warlordsix:


Hmmmm…..OK, as far as I know the Bosch III are direct replacements for the Caddy OEM injectors on the 4.9, no?


That is the consensus, yes.
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Report this Post06-10-2020 01:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Warlordsix:
Hmmmm…..OK, as far as I know the Bosch III are direct replacements for the Caddy OEM injectors on the 4.9, no?

I may have bought the custom one because I couldn't get any Allante one. The person I bought the intake from didn't have the fuel rail. My memory of 2008 isn't 100% perfect.
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Report this Post06-29-2020 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Burned a new chip yesterday with supposedly 25% more fuel... Throttle response feels better. Might have to hold off for a dyno for a couple of weeks as I'm working on a solar trailer project right now.
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Report this Post06-30-2020 01:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dear1700Click Here to Email dear1700Send a Private Message to dear1700Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ever tried running a wide band to see the actual afr?
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Report this Post06-30-2020 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dear1700:
Ever tried running a wide band to see the actual afr?

That's a little useful for logging when ordering "internet" tunes but for the cost it's about 4 hours of dyno time. I'd much rather have the dyno time and then never need the wideband again.

I tune for performance not for the # a book or person has it in their heads they have to target for AFR. The only reason to run a little rich below WOT is so when you increase throttle there's already fuel there to give you more power. At WOT, there's no more pedal increases coming so I have no problem tuning for 14+:1 AFR at WOT...or whatever # makes more power.
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quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
the # a book or person has it in their heads they have to target for AFR


You have a target number to follow, it's 14+ as you said. You found it on the dyno, so it's a good target for you.

The wideband gauge will let you know if anything changed since the dyno day, or if something is up with your car.
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Report this Post06-30-2020 09:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


You have a target number to follow, it's 14+ as you said. You found it on the dyno, so it's a good target for you.

The wideband gauge will let you know if anything changed since the dyno day, or if something is up with your car.


LOL while true, I'm not going to tune daily based on the weather nor go on a cross-country road trip in a Fiero where I'll be seeing radical elevation changes. When I'd done tuning - done is done.
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lou_dias
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Report this Post07-03-2020 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


196/298

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-03-2020).]

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Report this Post07-03-2020 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I guess as long as you always use the same wheels when you go to the dyno, then the hp loss doesn't really matter; you'll still be able to track the progress of your modifications.
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lou_dias
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Report this Post07-04-2020 12:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

I guess as long as you always use the same wheels when you go to the dyno, then the hp loss doesn't really matter; you'll still be able to track the progress of your modifications.


Yea I know, but I guess I'm just making the point that if I had stock wheels, this thing would be >200/>300 at the wheels which is pretty good for a 4.9 ... My buddy's IROC at the beginning of the video has Vortech heads, 1.6 rockers and a few other mods put down 233/330 but he has an auto.
...
One thing I did learn is the stock Fiero airbox is only good for about 190 rwhp. Once we bypassed that the hp and torque jumped +5 at peak but even higher >4200rpm...but that was past peak already.
Also this Fiero Factory cross-over is pretty small in diameter. Could probably gain some more power with a true dual exhaust...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-04-2020).]

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