My 4T80 wasn't shifting into 2nd gear unless done by the shift lever. Finally I dropped the pan to replace the shift solenoids and found this damage to the housing. The valve body assembly screws to it. It's just a small area, but can anyone advise on maybe an epoxy repair?
And with the valve body still installed it looked like this. I can replace the assembly.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 03-26-2020).]
My first thought too, but no. It's a VIN 9 and harder to find. Finally found a used one, talked to the guy who sold the car for scrap, he confirmed it was good. I bought it from the j-yard. They had pierced the pan with a punch to drain the fluid for and did that damage. I didn't know it when I took it to get it installed at the trans shop. The trans shop installed it without telling me but probably didn't see it until it was already installed. Since the pan had a drain hole punched they swapped the pan from my old trans. THAT'S when the chunk would've fallen out. They decided to sweep it under the rug and have avoided telling me.
Took it back for diagnostic and they wanted to replace the shift solenoids for $300 to fix it. Decided to do it myself and, voila. Someone at that shop knew about this because they swapped pans. The aluminum chunks would've been in there. They didn't even clean out the old pan from the grenaded trans. Last year I opened that trans and found destroyed wiring, wire insulation and a chunked solenoid. Yest when I dropped the newly installed pan wiring bits and electric slag was in the trans screen...that's junk from the old trans. That's when I looked about my old trans to confirm they swapped pans...there's a big punch hole through it confirming it was swapped. So I'm stuck. They suck
But I need a quick fix without throwing the car away.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 03-27-2020).]
I don't know if you can get this stuff in the US, but it works well It's sorta like JB Weld but it's better. Really I don't think you have anything to lose at this point. Would be better to get it welded but you could try
[This message has been edited by wgpierce (edited 03-27-2020).]
The best idea may be to first find out the reason that break occurred, then plan a method to fix it. Either way that trans probably has to come down.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I believe the owner stated that the trans came from a junk yard. I know at my Pick n Pull they do the same thing, they puncture the trans/oil pan's with a huge punch, putting a hole in it and then suck out all the fluid. They don't waste their time unbolting anything, punch thru the oil pan, the trans pan, suck out all the brake fluid, pop a hole in the gas tank, suck out all the gas, cut the cat converter off and then move it out onto the yard. That damage looks just like what the punch would do as they smacked it into the pan to suck out all the fluid. F**King idiots.
I've bought a few motors/trans from my Pick n Pull and the only pan they didn't punch thru was the 3800SC with the aluminum oil pan, they actually took out the plug (never put it back by the way).
That sucks i'd deff try the epoxy first, shape it, grind it, make it work.
Most Epoxies and "glues" don't work well on aluminum to start with. Add heat cycling and hydraulic pressure to force the joint to "blow out."
Worse, Top image look like have a Crack above obvious damage and "Glues" likely won't fix that. Far worse if the crack is on a stress area that will grow bigger in hours to days or more depending on how you drive etc.
Welding may help or not depending how good the welder shop is and if can reach all crack area. May need Zyglo or Magnaflux to see how deep the crack is. W/ or w/o that likely need to drill/grind crank open to weld closed.
Trans shop should not have installed this junk unit. Any "Real" shop should have seen that pan damage and loose parts when they took that off and never tried taking car apart. Some one basically ripped you off and did the job anyway. Good luck getting money from them w/o going to court. If under ~ $5000 maybe Small Claims Court that doesn't allow lawyers.
Your past blaming a junk yard even if they did the damage because of Trans shop took it apart and worse replace the pan.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Originally posted by olejoedad: Someone with good TIG skills could rebuild the area, the trick would be the final surfacing to get it to seal.
It would indeed be hard to make the repair area flush with the existing surface.
However, if the entire surface could be milled flat with just a bare minimum depth of cut (i.e. .003" or so), then there would be a good chance of sealing.
Not knowing anything about automatic transmissions, I don't know if the function of the trans would be impaired if this surface was cut a bit deeper.
The yard def did that damage processing for parting---fast as they can. The shop didn't tell me, but I don't think they knew until it was already installed and HAD to see it when they changed the pan. Plus the owner was out having surgery during that time so it was play time. It should've been something I caught before taking it there, but they should've told me. I'll know next time to really go over the thing before taking it in.
Anyway, the owner said it's been forever since they rebuilt one of these and wasn't positive but it appears it'll be ok to epoxy and the back channel (outer one) looks like a no pressure exhaust passage. The inside circuit he said goes into the valve body then comes out a few inches away.
The green is what he suggested doing with epoxy, building all the way to that other back wall It WILL NOT block the flow since it has two paths, one on each end. Again he thinks the outer channel is just an exhaust. Building all the way to the next wall will prevent a blow out / working out. To keep the plane flat how about if I use some rigid cardstock to make a clean surface that keeps the plane? That would pull off and clean off easily. What do you think about using rigid cardboard bolted up in place like it's the valve body?
You can purchase low temp (600*) aluminum soldering/brazing rods that may be able to fill this break and prove stronger than an adhesive
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I have confidence in epoxy being able to cure it flat and will shape with less pressure so the alum won't get out of flatness. This has to be completed this weekend. I filed the crack and area this morning.
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Originally posted by Zeb:
Card stock won't be flat enough. Use a piece of glass or machined flat metal, clamped against the bottom of the valve body. Coat it with silicone, mold release, or grease to keep from gluing it to the trans.
Yes, it would need to be something quite rigid, however epoxy can be filed fairly easily. There is a thin gasket that seals to the valve body too, of course. Grease doesn't seem like it yield a flat enough plane (difficult to apply flat). Another thinner release agent seems good. Silicone is probably easy to obtain. EDIT Waxpaper.
(1) Silicone spray like from a can? The release agent might be hard to obtain this weekend. (2) And when done maybe a super thin sealant (but not too adhesive) for that area? What would be recommended? (3) wgpierce, it's a rushjob I'm thinking of using Extreme Heat JB Weld which doesn't bond parts but is for cracks. I like it less the more I look. Similar products are Quik Steel at Autozone so analysis paralysis. Kinda stuck on this point and need to get this part done today. https://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-extremeheat
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 03-28-2020).]
Ran a test with some QuikSteel over night on an extra valve body. I like it. It packs into the crevices ans stays there. I stuck wax paper over that and smoothed it with a flat, hard piece of plastic and it cures quickly. It states a full cure in 1 hour but that was just the outer portion which does sound fully cured when tapped with a screwdriver. I also spread out a thin test wafer which would still flex for several hours, but in the morning was fully cured. The JB Weld Extreme Heat is a paste and decided not to try it. This morning I'll mod up the trans housing.
After a very short time of curing the test piece I dragged a utility knife blade (Stanley knife blade) across it and it flattened perfectly well.
I would never recommend what you did for fixing that, but I hope it works good for you and has no future issues. I tried fixes like that in the past on my own projects as a teen and they nearly always let me down.
At the very least Id use Alumaloy to fill the area, but a tig would be the thing to do.
Sucks that damage occurred I've had a lot of issues with used parts damaged by the salvage yards, during shipping or by the loaders when I pickup entire cars from auction.
Hope to see you post back in the future and about 50 k miles on that sucker trouble free.
Where were you yesterday? Lol, dammit. It's done now. Shaped up and curing. The car might still be around in 50k but probably more like 20k is likely. The valve body is the challenge now. Doesn't appear the local yard today has a compatible year of valve body. Figures. There were two there last month. I've got pieces to replace the damaged one but there's a metal plate between upper and lower velve bodies and it appears to have a bonded gasket, so I need a new plate with the bonded gasket.
This is what I have to find if there's no compatible used complete body to use.
No cars my era found there. Took a 1999 off to compare. The upper valve body housing with the shift solenoids is different. The electric portion of the solenoid may be oriented better than my 2001. It was sideways where at least one of mine is inline with the rotating drum. My original grenaded trans let go into the drum destroying the housing. Here's a pic of the 98-99. It also has 5 O-ring deals on a switch bolts down in that where mine only had 3 under the switch, so no swappee.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 03-29-2020).]
JB Weld responded Monday to an email I sent Sunday.
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Need to repair 1/2 inch divot (fill a void) which is inside an auto trans. A punch got hammered into it. It doesn't have pressure but has constant trans fluid contact. I'd assume it gets pretty hot. Which should I use? Thank you.
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You can use our original JB Weld #8265S. J-B Weld Support
I've had good luck with JB weld repairs but not on aluminum. I'd still go with the alumaloy low temp brazing rods. to fix that. Of course you could try JB Weld and see what happens. You could always go back to the low temp aluminum rods if that doesn't work. What raises questions in my mind is the effect on submersion to trans fluid that the JB Epoxy would be subject to.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The problem with aluminum is the porosity, it is difficult to remove all of the trans fluid from the broken metal area.
Solvent cleaning several times followed by heating the area to remove any trace of the contamination may work, but the odds are against you......the only way to improve your odds is to clean and heat the area many times....
From my experience in industry, the only thing that will work long term is to TIG weld the area and then file or machine to return to the original shape.
Seriously, I do not have much faith in an epoxy repair simply due to the extreme difficulty in properly and completely removing contamination from the porous aluminum broken casting.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 04-03-2020).]
I took my old trans and pics of the current damage to the trans shop (to illustrate exactly where this circuit is located) before doing this band-aid. Maybe he already knew since I took it down for them to diagnose. Maybe I'm reading too much into his opinion but his statement was that a shift solenoid is still the reason it wouldn't shift. So I'm suspecting maybe he knows and that this is not a primary forward operating circuit--or won't prevent adequate operation. I'm wondering if this is PERHAPS the reverse circuit which did operate, but was quite slow to respond when gear selected.
But I ordered and received the lower valve body separator plate pictured above and have the 2 shift solenoids. Hopefully this weekend we'll see what happens. I should've done the shift solenoids before having them install the trans. I would've seen the damage. A shift solenoid letting go is what destroyed the original trans, so it was a miss on my part initially. They still should'vel told me. They should've cleaned the replacement pan out and cleaned the wiring insulation and grenaded pieces from the hockey stick strainer screen before taking them off the old trans and installing. I have a suspicion the workers want a used trans to fail.
Anyway, here's the repair before shaping it down. It's just a plug and held in place by the hole in the wall and shouldn't blow out if it's not high pressure. It can erode though or a piece could break loose. My wax paper wrinkled and caused a divot (where it doesn't really matter once it was shaped). But for anyone using epoxy putty, you should use a large deep well socket that would roll over the area instead of dragging something across it. Put the wax paper over it and roll the socket across it like a rolling screed. That way you don't have to shape it much. The metal separator plate between the valve bodies has paper gasket material bonded to it so it will take up some small deviations.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 04-03-2020).]
Anyone recognize what this circuit is that was broken open? And what the device is that it's coming from? This is the good channel plate with the red line. The yellow is from the valve body that sits above the channel plate.
The large round thing at end of red path? Quick guess likely an accumulator. Several ways can be used and can have more then one job too. Examples: Can be used to store pressurize oil so whatever part acts fast. (Main pump etc will have problems keeping up w/ fast flow for some parts.) Can be like a Hammer Stop for household pumping to prevent things from breaking. Can be both depending just how valve body is design.
Ok, thanks. really curious to see if anything is repaired when this is done but it won't be this weekend. Turns out I got half good and half bad advice on shift solenoids. The info given was that the 2 shift solenoids were the same, but aren't. For my 2000-2001 built trans there are 2 different numbers. The 1-2 solenoid is rotated 90 degrees in the metal housing from the 3-4 solenoid to clear the channel plate. They have different plugs to differentiate them. Other than the plug everything is the same, just oriented differently. I believe the 98-99 one they might be the same since they install the same rotation. Note the tan plastic part is rotated in the pic. The electric plug colors correlate to the part number.
Makes sense why it wouldn't shift automatically to 2nd then. To make it operate in 2nd from a dead stop I had to pull the lever to 2nd and start out. It would shift from 1st to 2nd as normal. And if I waited until higher RPMs to manually move the lever to 3rd or D it would properly shift to 3rd and onward. However if I manually shifted to 3rd too soon it would freewheel with no forward motion as it tried to fall back to 1st gear. If I started out in D it would take off in 1st and never shift until RPMs were high enough to take on 3rd.
These are things the trans shop wouldn't tell me. They really must just want to do full rebuilds only and actually have done 2 for me, plus others for family. All performed well. My 98 Tahoe for $1000 in 2005 and 84 Cavalier in the mid 90s I had rebuilt while replacing the engine.
These are things the trans shop wouldn't tell me. They really must just want to do full rebuilds only and actually have done 2 for me, plus others for family. ...
i'll probably catch some crap for this, but you would think that they'd cut you a little bit of slack, and give you some information, seeing as how deep you were, into this madness. Have they got to milk a loyal customer for every_freakin'_ penny?
sigh. !st to 2nd now works. But now no 2-3 and no 3-4 shifts. Reverse works. So I have 1, 2 and reverse.
Also, these cars disengage the parking brake automatically when shifted. That no longer works either, but did before I 'fixed' it. Damn, it was better before. Now I can't drive the highways at speed. I tried running it up to 55 in D but no shift. I sorta bucked.
Oops! Shift sol B is on in 3rd and 4th, off in 1st and 2nd. stuck 2-3 shift valve = same result. I think there is only one channel plate, but there are different separator plates. Not sure if they are just calibration differences. I don"t know what combination you used. Marc
Yeah, it's gotta be something there. I'm going to invest in a clean catch pan and filter media to recycle my $50 trans fluid instead of buying $50 more.
EDIT: Taking off another car's valve body to swap on pointed out something I didn't do. This probably explains my auto park brake and backup sensor inops. Wonder what happens regarding shifting if I didn't link that lever in like this one is? Because I didn't and wonder if that's all my trans problems.
THIS WAS THE ORIGINAL POSTING: I compared the channel plates before assembling the new setup and they were the same. Separator plate too, from my untrained eye anyway. Only found 1 separator plate avail for my year. My vin 9 trans is a 2001. The replacement trans is almost lost in memory, but was def a vin 9 and pretty sure it was a 2001, but only used the channel plate, so. Waited a long time to find correct trans and it is. Vin 9 is DTS/STS. The valve body and other pieces weren't exchanged. With new solenoids I was surprised to have this. Decided to pull a complete valve body assembly from another trans I just located and will stick that in to try. I expect this will fix my shifting but not my auto-brake release issue or the backup sensor inop issue.
Stopped at a different trans shop yesterday to pick brains and found he had a ATSG tech manual for a 4t80e he said he would never use and bought that from him. Based on the troubleshooting bits and both gears being inop it looks like maybe "misassembled". I'm going to replace the wiring harness too. The schematic also shows a spring under the 1-2 accumulator that I don't remember ever seeing. Maybe what I heard fall out when pulling valve body assembly is what is causing the parking brake auto release issue.
So with the shifting issues, valve bore plug? Debris? Wiring problem? But with the replacement valve body I can't change the solenoids without removing the valve body to get at the retaining clips (maybe accumulators--can't remember now, so...what to do? Just swap it as is and later change solenoids once it's cleared as working?
971 was not installed under 1-2 accumulator if it was a loose spring.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 04-16-2020).]
Been a while since working on these, but if you didn't link up the IMS right that could be it. Not sure it will fix everything though. The ATSG chart lists all possibilities. Hard to sort out without a working knowledge of operation. Hydraulic charts mean more to me. Mismatched parts are probably not a problem. I wouldn't be concerned about the missing 1-2 accumulator spring now. It's a trim spring not used on all models. When you install the replacement VB, just make sure everything is hooked up right and let us know. Marc
I'm thinking my alternate channel plate didn't have the trim spring when I took it down. The two plates have a different date ink stamped on them. The one I just found has the earlier date too.
Replacing the entire VB is the smart money. I've learned that I'm not that smart, oh-no. Meaning I'm considering just hooking up the pressure switch and seeing what happens...because I can't stand not knowing if that is the fix.
I'm thinking my alternate channel plate didn't have the trim spring when I took it down. The two plates have a different date ink stamped on them. The one I just found has the earlier date too.
Replacing the entire VB is the smart money. I've learned that I'm not that smart, oh-no. Meaning I'm considering just hooking up the pressure switch and seeing what happens...because I can't stand not knowing if that is the fix.
I'm the same way. Should've asked a long time ago, but there is no mention of a scan tool. Scan data would show selector position right away. Codes? Marc
No scan since pulling the VB off to replace solenoids. I'd like to have a scan tool. Any recommendations on an affordable one for unemployed people?
Buy an ELM 327 Bluetooth/WiFi interface plug in that goes on your OBD2 diagnostic connector. Should cost less than $10 on eBay. Nest go to your apps store and buy, try or find a free OBD2 diagnostic app for your iPhone or Android. Shouldn't cost much
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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