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Couple questions for the 3800 experts. by blazin'
Started on: 02-11-2020 04:29 PM
Replies: 13 (344 views)
Last post by: Frenchrafe on 03-18-2020 04:36 AM
blazin'
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Report this Post02-11-2020 04:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blazin'Click Here to Email blazin'Send a Private Message to blazin'Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good day all, I'm in the process of obtaining an 04 Impala SS for future swap considerations. Donor car is an 88 GT with a '92 Series 1 SC from a Bonneville w/5spd. ECM is 16141470. This swap is complete, running and driving although with some wrinkles.

Now after diving deep into the the archives, I have some questions. Would the series 2 run in the cars current configuration with obd1 and this ECM? I guess one could expect some hiccups with some plumbing and what not, and a custom prom would likely be required. My thinking was if there are no negatives to running the series 2 with obd1 and if the existing harness would work I could later use the series 1 motor as a jig to build another harness for obd2 in the spare time I have.

Furthermore, I haven't searched this so I apologize, but would the custom flywheel for the series 1 work on the series 2?

Thanks

[This message has been edited by blazin' (edited 02-11-2020).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post02-11-2020 05:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 3800SC series II engines need OBD2 engine management with a GTP series II PCM. To try and use a series 1 ECM to run a series 2 engine is like trying to re-invent the wheel. The two engines have far different sensor outputs are completely different in areas of fueling and timing.
Let me ask you why would you even consider trying such a thing?

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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blazin'
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Report this Post02-11-2020 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blazin'Click Here to Email blazin'Send a Private Message to blazin'Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the insight, Dennis.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050818-2-058849.html

This is the thread I came across. Regardless, I'm planning on upgrading the series 1 and it seemed too good to be true to simply drop in a series 2 with minimal mods to the existing setup.
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

The 3800SC series II engines need OBD2 engine management with a GTP series II PCM. To try and use a series 1 ECM to run a series 2 engine is like trying to re-invent the wheel. The two engines have far different sensor outputs are completely different in areas of fueling and timing.
Let me ask you why would you even consider trying such a thing?



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Dave E Bouy
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Report this Post02-11-2020 08:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dave E BouyClick Here to Email Dave E BouySend a Private Message to Dave E BouyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ran a Series 2 from a 98 GP on an OBD1 ECM for probably 4 or 5 years without any trouble. I think my ECM was a 94 or 95 Pontiac something or other. Sensors all interchanged too and I didn't use a MAP sensor only MAF. Eventually I switched over to OBD 2 because there was so little support for OBD1 platform.

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blazin'
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Report this Post02-12-2020 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blazin'Click Here to Email blazin'Send a Private Message to blazin'Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In a nutshell, this was my plan. Why bother troubleshooting the series 1 when I can drop in the series 2 and up with the better setup at the end of the day.

If I get the issues with the series 1 solved with some ease I'd hold off on direct swapping the series 2 to build it and do odb2 for its install.

The current motor is throwing a code 41, which I haven't investigated yet but I'm expecting to find the interrupter on the cam sprocket to be missing. Also has low oil pressure at idle when warm on the Fiero gauge, although that hasn't been verified with a mechanical tester.

 
quote
Originally posted by Dave E Bouy:

I ran a Series 2 from a 98 GP on an OBD1 ECM for probably 4 or 5 years without any trouble. I think my ECM was a 94 or 95 Pontiac something or other. Sensors all interchanged too and I didn't use a MAP sensor only MAF. Eventually I switched over to OBD 2 because there was so little support for OBD1 platform.

DF


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olejoedad
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Report this Post02-12-2020 12:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Built an 87 Toronado with the digital dash, and a 4T60.
Used a Series 2 SC engine.
Had to use the OBD1 ECU as it was the only ECU that would talk to the dash and BCM, hence we used the 4T60 trans.

You may have an issue with the MAF sensor and your ECU tables not being in harmony.
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cmechmann
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Report this Post02-12-2020 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Been using that same PCM for about 6 years now.
Started out with a 1993 Series 1 SC out of a Park Avenue with a 4t60E out of a 1995 3.4 Grand Am. Same final drive gears but without the bearing in the output housing and without HD axles.
This was in a 1985 GT. Let someone use it for a while and got it back with a light rod knock.
Then found a high mileage 1998 Series II SC. Used the same PCM. Had to try 3 different MAFs before getting it to work near normal. Also had to try a few different places for the knock sensor. The Series 1 had it under cylinder 2 near the timing cover. On the Series II(which came with 2) found it worked best in the block plug behind the starter.
I had to change the timing tables a little. So I raided about 4 different proms. 2 from SC, 2 from n/a. Comparing the tables and pasted the most average table from an SC into an editor.
Then someone tboned the 85 and swapped it all into a 1987 GT.
Ran that a few years.
Then, I found a very low mileage 2005 VIN K non boosted. And had to edit the timing tables from the prom tables I had from the n/a proms.
It has been very reliable since then.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post02-12-2020 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cmechmann:

Been using that same PCM for about 6 years now.
Started out with a 1993 Series 1 SC out of a Park Avenue with a 4t60E out of a 1995 3.4 Grand Am. Same final drive gears but without the bearing in the output housing and without HD axles.
This was in a 1985 GT. Let someone use it for a while and got it back with a light rod knock.
Then found a high mileage 1998 Series II SC. Used the same PCM. Had to try 3 different MAFs before getting it to work near normal. Also had to try a few different places for the knock sensor. The Series 1 had it under cylinder 2 near the timing cover. On the Series II(which came with 2) found it worked best in the block plug behind the starter.
I had to change the timing tables a little. So I raided about 4 different proms. 2 from SC, 2 from n/a. Comparing the tables and pasted the most average table from an SC into an editor.
Then someone tboned the 85 and swapped it all into a 1987 GT.
Ran that a few years.
Then, I found a very low mileage 2005 VIN K non boosted. And had to edit the timing tables from the prom tables I had from the n/a proms.
It has been very reliable since then.


Your fueling was most likely not correct as the software to reprogram the OBD I series 1 3800's is just not there. BTW, are you using an ECM or PCM. Only PCM's are OBD2.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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cmechmann
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Report this Post02-13-2020 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
PCM power train control module.
ECM engine control module
When the module also controls the transmission, frequently called a PCM.
That PCM was used from 1992-1995 on cars. Had seen a few on trucks until 1996.
I was using Tuner pro to view and compare data.
Used a DOS GME PRO editor to edit the bin file. Tuner pro had a few glitches in it's conversion file for that PCM 1992-1993 3800SC.
Found GME to be very error free as an editor. I had contacted the writer of the program. He had gave the conversion file that he had. He was surprised that I had contacted him, being that he had not had anyone have interest in it for so long.
I am using ST 27csf256 EEproms. Savana Wellem programmer. Reminds me, I will have to freshen the solder joints on the prom adapter I made.
Yes it is true that this PCM is not as editable as ODBII. No detail for editing Volumetric efficiency. However were able to edit injector volume, timing table, maf table, shift points, road constant, RPM and MPH fuel cutoffs, code monitor flags and more. That PCM also has a port for a performance switch. For normal or performance modes that were available for the Bonneville SSEI.
Now this would not be enough for track times, but worked fine for what I wanted out of it.
Also I own or have access to the following. Snap On "brick", Tech 1(yes A GM Tech1), MAC ODBII/and earlier scanners. The Tech shows more manufacture data than the other 2. With a few pass through functions that I have never seen on pre ODBII scanners including the Snap ON.
There was a lot of self made parts. Alternator brackets, engine and transmission mount brackets, I had to fabricate. Had to remake alternator brackets 3 times. First for the Series 1. Then for the Series II SC. And again for the N/A.
Don't get me wrong. There was a lot of work getting it to all work. Not for the faint of heart and not for someone with little mechanical experience. But I made it work with what I had. Had to use 3 different wiring diagrams to get the harness right. Mitchel diagrams for 1993 Park Avenue Ultra, 1993 Bonneville SSEI and of course 1985 Fiero GT. I decided to use the Fiero cruise control so I could keep the wire count down at the PCM. The PCM has 2 VSS outputs 1 for the speedo and 1 for the cruise. Oh by the way, I'm using a digital dash from a 1987 Cutlass Calais. Works with all the outputs from the PCM (tach speedo)and all of the analog sending units from the car. No BCM needed.
The PCM works well with the 2005 ignition module and coils. Ignition wiring is the same from 1992-2005. Did have to use the 1998 injectors. The only failure I have had in the last 40,000 miles was the fuel pump. Can't say that this set up is the most tunable, but has been very reliable. The techs I work with at first were skeptical. But watching me use it every work day for the last 5 years, with so little break downs, they don't question it. Have jumped in it and drove 1000 miles non stop except for fuel and pee on a good number of times.
Best set up,nope. Hard to piece together, yes. Will it work reliably, yes

[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 02-13-2020).]

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blazin'
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Report this Post02-16-2020 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blazin'Click Here to Email blazin'Send a Private Message to blazin'Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very nice, thanks for the information. Much appreciated!

I'm still undecided what my course of action will be yet, I still need to dig into this Fiero to see what I have with it. I'm leaning towards leaving everything as is, granted I don't find anything seriously wrong. Prepping the series 2 for a swap and some mods this winter might be the best bet.
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Report this Post02-16-2020 06:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most will suggest that you wire a 04-08 motor as a Series II w/ out the DBW throttle body. You can purchase a plate to connect the SII TB to the 04 intake. If you do, an 04 w/ auto trans has to use a 03 ECM b/c its the only one that will shift the +04 auto trans. If your running a manual than nevermind. I used Ryan's pinout to make my harness.

http://www.gmtuners.com/fil...PCM_Fiero_wiring.pdf

Rob

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 02-16-2020).]

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blazin'
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Report this Post03-09-2020 01:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blazin'Click Here to Email blazin'Send a Private Message to blazin'Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

Most will suggest that you wire a 04-08 motor as a Series II w/ out the DBW throttle body. You can purchase a plate to connect the SII TB to the 04 intake. If you do, an 04 w/ auto trans has to use a 03 ECM b/c its the only one that will shift the +04 auto trans. If your running a manual than nevermind. I used Ryan's pinout to make my harness.

http://www.gmtuners.com/fil...PCM_Fiero_wiring.pdf

Rob



The Impala was still running the series 2 in '04. But, it's funny you mention the DBW and TB adapter as I picked up a Gen V M90 local to me for a reasonable price, so now I'm hunting for the parts to complete that setup.

What I haven't been able to find yet, is pinouts for the '04 SS.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post03-12-2020 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cmechmann:
Best set up,nope. Hard to piece together, yes. Will it work reliably, yes



To go as far as you did; you are a better man than I.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Frenchrafe
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Report this Post03-18-2020 04:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FrenchrafeClick Here to Email FrenchrafeSend a Private Message to FrenchrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In Europe, we don't have as many sources (wreakers, scrapyards etc...) for american cars and parts.
We have to make do with what we find!
Personally, I have a series 2 (year 2000ish) 3800 with a series 1 PCM (year 1995).
Darthfiero did my chip and it works very well. So it is possible to run an ODB2 3800 with an ODB1 PCM.
Yes, you don't have all the inputs (like MAP) but the thing works fine!

Regards, Rafe

------------------
'87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. Sticky tyres. Driven hard!

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