I am a noob looking forward & anticipating learning about and implementing tuning of a stock LHU or LTG 2.0 turbo motor with E39, E39A or E80 ECU as part of a future swap project.
Light engine mods possible down the road, but stock first.
Learning is the objective and I wish to go down the tools & software path best for me. I'd hate to invest in tools and/or learn use of software only to find later that I should have gone down a different path.
Any suggestions or advice to get started right?

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Steve Mushynsky

1984 Fiero 2M4
34K miles

1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor now)
Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.

1987 Fiero
Tried to kill me (gone to a 'better place')
Prior owner failed to tighten a bolt. Trailing arm separated at 70 mph

[This message has been edited by SteveMushynsky (edited 11-16-2019).]

Both HP Tuners and EFILive have forums where people talk about issues with swaps, tuning limitations, etc. They also normally list what applications they support and sometimes have free demo downloads so you can open up the software and specific calibrations.

Research, research, research... their are differences in the scanning/tuning software as well as features supported for each calibration. The less common the OEM application or the less aftermarket support for swaps or upgrades, the less time each will spend developing the software for that specific calibration.

For example back when I did my LS4 swap with the E67, most of the transmission DTC were not visible and could not be turned off with HPTuners. TunerPro was able to turn them off though.

The newer the application and the less performance oriented it was in stock form, the more you run into tuning software limitations.

I have HP tuners and it works great for me. But I am not anywhere near an expert tuner. Features include scanning while you drive without your laptop in the car. This is great because you can play the log back at your leisure and not have to try to watch the laptop as you drive. If you go on the HP tuners forum you will find threads about tuning your platform and get lots of help. Also you can download and use/look at other users tunes on the HP website.(after you buy the system)

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86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-16-2019).]

For OBDII PCM's I've used HP Tuners tuning suite and have achieved good results. Its very user friendly and making adjustments is easy. For a 3800 swap this laptop scanning and editing program is all you need.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

fieroguru and wftb, thank you both for your kind replies. I've spent much time online doing research and your names have come up often (in a good way).

I'm on a long time line here, anticipating a project that will require me to learn new skills with new tools and techniques, so any forward-looking, helpful info I can glean is a good thing.

My interest has evolved toward using an Ecotec with a modern ECU (E39A or E80 2013 thru 2016). wftb, from your experience with the Ecotec, would you recommend learning and using HPTuners? Expense will be an issue, so I want to be sure to choose the best option for me.

I'm just starting to tear down my donor 2016 Fiero and being a retired semi-disabled guy, this will be a long-term project so I will have lots of time and opportunity to research and learn.

It seems that I can find either an LHU or a LTG online for about the same price with approx 270 hp stock. Given the large number of LTGs existant, I'm hoping that tuning at least one of these ECUs is a thing, although it seems that there is a later 2017 p/n version of the E80 that might be subject to the GM enhanced code security feature I've read about.
So much to learn. I could use any help I can get

BTW, I was earlier fixated on using an LX9, but the ECU involved was one not popularly tunable and I didn't want to go backward to using the 7400 V6 24-tooth reluctor wheel system. Back to research and enter the Ecotec.

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Steve Mushynsky

1984 Fiero 2M4
34K miles

1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor now)
Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.

1987 Fiero
Tried to kill me (gone to a 'better place')
Prior owner failed to tighten a bolt. Trailing arm separated at 70 mph

[This message has been edited by SteveMushynsky (edited 11-16-2019).]

Strong suggestion for PCM, would be the one from the turbo cobalts (2008-2010).

There are guides out there for complete tuning noobs to get started with those PCM/Software OS for HP Tuners.

The reason I think this exists for those cars on and not nearly as much information for the PCMs for the cars with the LHU and newer is the cost/performance aspect of the car.

Since Cobalt SS was a cheap performance car many owners couldn't afford to pay a tuner so they did it themselves with HP Tuners and shared a lot of information. The price/demographic buying cars with the modern 2.0 turbo ecotecs aren't as inclined towards performance modifications, and usually have the budget and prefer to just pay a shop to tune their car.

I have tuned over 50 cobalts (the majority were the turbo LNF but many supercharged and NA cars with turbo kits as well), and I can tell you the following.

I can't remember how many times people asked me for pricing to tune their car, declined and bought HP tuners themselves, and then came back to me in a few months for me to tune their car.

Tuning isn't for everyone. If your serious about learning it keep the engine as stock as possible (In a Fiero the intake and downpipe/exhaust/intercooler aren't going to be stock, but keep everything else stock to start), and learn to tune your car with little steps as it should run on the factory tune, and just learn to tune the fueling. Once you are confident with the fueling you can move on to boost/timing. But do it in little steps or it might overwhelm you and make you give up.

Also make sure you are using the MAF sensor, and smoke test your setup to avoid any bosot leaks. Boost/vacuum leaks really mess with the ability to tune the car well on a MAF setup.

If you want to use the Cobalt PCM/OS start with a cobalt SS engine/wiring harness/OCM. Should you ever have any bottom end issues the Cobalt head will bolt right on to the LHU engine, and with a couple of sensor swaps you are good to go.

If you are never going to upgrade to a larger than stock turbo and don't get wheel hop, any Cobalt SS F35 (SC or TC) will hold up just fine. The TC transmissions had much beefier CV joints so those are nice to use, but I am not sure if factory length CV joints will work in the Fiero or if you need customs.

For the big power cars I tuned (450 to 600Whp) they used the Cobalt SS TC transmission with a 4.45 final drive installed. Not sure if those can be easily found anymore. But unless you upgraded the turbo and went for big power the only transmission issues were typically caused by wheel hop.

ALso with the F35 transmission you can go with the GMPP clutch which is quite inexpensive and will easily hold up to 320Whp (easily obtained on the stock LNF turbo).

quote Originally posted by OntarioKev: For the big power cars I tuned (450 to 600Whp) they used the Cobalt SS TC transmission with a 4.45 final drive installed. Not sure if those can be easily found anymore. But unless you upgraded the turbo and went for big power the only transmission issues were typically caused by wheel hop.

Are there other FD's available for that trans? I was not aware of that.

They weren't used in the Cobalts they are from certain Saturn and Opel models, and possibly one specific Saab.

Very tough to find just the gearset now so you would likely have to obtain a transmission that already has the swap done, or one of the transmissions that has it and then move it over to the Cobalt one.

quote Originally posted by OntarioKev: Strong suggestion for PCM...

Thanks for the advice, OntarioKev.

My intention is to install an LHU with a modern ECU, either an E39 or an E39A, both of which were used with the LHU in the Buick Regal GS in 2012 and 2013. I would begin with the original, stock ECU and code, as I primarily wish to create a decently running car and the stock output will be fine, initially. I recognize, though, that installation in a Fiero is not stock and I'm thinking some fine-tuning would be appropriate, along with accommodations regarding VATS and speed signal source, at least. Knowing myself, I'm sure I'll be looking to increase the power & torque output somewhat in the future, if only to match my son's swapped MR2's output.

I hope to find an original harness with ECU, BCM & Ignition Relays to start with, and perhaps a Cobalt dash instrument panel.
In the event that I am unable to get a complete harness & modules set:
- What will I need to get or do to create a full, usable set with components from different sources?

- What should I seek to accomplish an engine-only ECU system?

- Should I use an E39 or an E39A ECU?
- Am I correct that these two ECU's are each equally programmable by now?

- I understand there was a recall and a "hold" on one of these, though I don't know which or why. I'm also curious how these two ECU's fit into GM's change toward/to "torque-based" engine/transmission control. Are both similar in this regard?

As there will be no ABS and I believe there is no VSS output on an F35 transmission, I expect I will need a VSS sensor adapter on the jackshaft to feed the speedometer signal.
- Is this correct, or is this true only for the F40 transmission?

Once again, thanks to any and all for any input and help.

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Steve Mushynsky

1984 Fiero 2M4
34K miles

1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor now)
Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.

1987 Fiero
Tried to kill me (gone to a 'better place')
Prior owner failed to tighten a bolt. Trailing arm separated at 70 mph

It seems that EFI Live in the US has run afoul of the Feds due to their support of and heavy utilization by the Cummings Diesel EPA Delete/Smoke Roller jackasses.

Does anyone have more thorough and up to date information on this?

------------------
Steve Mushynsky

1984 Fiero 2M4
34K miles

1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor now)
Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.

1987 Fiero
Tried to kill me (gone to a 'better place')
Prior owner failed to tighten a bolt. Trailing arm separated at 70 mph

quote Originally posted by SteveMushynsky: It seems that EFI Live in the US has run afoul of the Feds due to their support of and heavy utilization by the Cummings Diesel EPA Delete/Smoke Roller jackasses. Does anyone have more thorough and up to date information on this?

How accurate is that statement because I would think the Feds have better things to do with their time than worry about people deleting emission stuff off their trucks? HPTuners can delete emission stuff as well, as well do a lot of tuners, chips, ect. I am sure many people don't like it but if you are in an area that doesn't do smog tests then what really can be said about it?

quote Originally posted by Spadesluck: How accurate is that statement because I would think the Feds have better things to do with their time than worry about people deleting emission stuff off their trucks? HPTuners can delete emission stuff as well, as well do a lot of tuners, chips, ect. I am sure many people don't like it but if you are in an area that doesn't do smog tests then what really can be said about it?

The EPA *IS* worried about that... apparently they don't have anything better to do. They go after shops that do large numbers of non-certified tunes and components but leave owners alone.

The EPA considers that it basically owns your emissions systems from production through salvage... but you as their tenant are responsible for maintenance.

quote Originally posted by Spadesluck: How accurate is that statement because I would think the Feds have better things to do with their time than worry about people deleting emission stuff off their trucks? HPTuners can delete emission stuff as well, as well do a lot of tuners, chips, ect. I am sure many people don't like it but if you are in an area that doesn't do smog tests then what really can be said about it?

It seems that EFI Live was the favored tool of the EPA Delete/Smoke Roller jackasses and actively provided and, through associated tuner shops, actively facilitated this activity.
EFI Live stuck their face in the Fed's fist and in as much said "punch me".
Tuning is one thing and can be done responsibly. Intentionally laying down heavy smoke is pure idiocy.