Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  Automatic Northstar owners...

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
Automatic Northstar owners... by Trinten
Started on: 11-07-2019 09:29 PM
Replies: 20 (393 views)
Last post by: Will on 11-20-2019 08:30 AM
Trinten
Member
Posts: 774
From: Mebane, N.C.
Registered: Sep 2008


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-07-2019 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been trying to skim threads of folks that have done the Northstar swap, but it seems many have gone over to manuals.

Has anyone kept the 4T80E ? If so, what shifter cables (or parts cobbled together) did you use?

Any pictures or thread links would be appreciated!

Thanks!
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
IXSLR8
Member
Posts: 666
From: East Happy Valley, OR, USA
Registered: Sep 2004


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-07-2019 11:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IXSLR8Click Here to Email IXSLR8Send a Private Message to IXSLR8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've done one manual and two automatic trans N* Fieros. Two 85's and one 88.

I used the stock shifter mechanism on the transmission and the stock automatic Cadillac cable. You just have to turn the electronic mechanism 180 degrees (backwards) to be able to shift. You can make a simple bracket to hold the cable. Pretty strait forward.

The nice thing about the automatics is that there is no torque steer under WOT.
You might consider a performance torque converter as my son and I have used all the stock ones. You can't spin the tires with a stock converter and the 300HP VIN 9 engine.

[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 11-07-2019).]

IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 13945
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 189
Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2019 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Many people go manual to avoid the weight of the 4T80, and to eliminate issue of second gear take-offs.
IP: Logged
Trinten
Member
Posts: 774
From: Mebane, N.C.
Registered: Sep 2008


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2019 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

I've done one manual and two automatic trans N* Fieros. Two 85's and one 88.

I used the stock shifter mechanism on the transmission and the stock automatic Cadillac cable. You just have to turn the electronic mechanism 180 degrees (backwards) to be able to shift. You can make a simple bracket to hold the cable. Pretty strait forward.

The nice thing about the automatics is that there is no torque steer under WOT.
You might consider a performance torque converter as my son and I have used all the stock ones. You can't spin the tires with a stock converter and the 300HP VIN 9 engine.



Awesome! That is exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you. And yes, I have a performance torque converter already from Precision Industries. It's a smaller diameter, so less rotating mass to get moving, billet cover unit. You can find my build thread in the construction zone, zoom to about 2 or 3 pages from the end to see the latest re-revision.
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
Many people go manual to avoid the weight of the 4T80, and to eliminate issue of second gear take-offs.


Right... found that while trying to find the answer to my actual question.
IP: Logged
Trinten
Member
Posts: 774
From: Mebane, N.C.
Registered: Sep 2008


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2019 06:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 4T80E I got from Triple Edge did not come with any brackets or cables.

I looked up a 2000 Deville on GM Parts, so they would show me associated parts to the shift cable.

Cable:
https://www.gmpartsgiant.co...ter=()&Location=pd:,

IXSLR8 - are these all the other parts I need?

Transmission Range Selector
https://www.gmpartsgiant.co...bff2066ffd4c49d4327e

Range Selector Lever Cable
https://www.gmpartsgiant.co...60700bb3cf95ef436228

You mentioned something about an electronic mechanism? I can't seem to find that part. Thank you for your help!

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 540
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2019 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Many people go manual to avoid the weight of the 4T80, and to eliminate issue of second gear take-offs.


Does the standard Y VIN not shift to 1st gear manually with the shifer? Because the 9 VIN has a floor shifter which can manually be set to 1st gear.
IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13234
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post11-10-2019 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Many people go manual to avoid the weight of the 4T80, and to eliminate issue of second gear take-offs.


2nd gear start means your PCM is running in "low traction mode" due to lack of input from the antilock/traction control module. This is *NOT* running as intended. You *may* be able to circumvent this by looping the "delivered torque output" signal on the PCM back to the "desired torque input". Some people have had success with that.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-11-2019).]

IP: Logged
Trinten
Member
Posts: 774
From: Mebane, N.C.
Registered: Sep 2008


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-10-2019 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey Will,

Thanks. That's really good info to have for when we program the PCM.

IXSLR8 - I'm looking at different parts suppliers, so far the only "electronic" component I can find for the transmission (that isn't internal) is the neutral safety switch. Is this the part you said had to be spun 180 degrees?

Any other feedback on the parts list to get linkage setup for the 4T80E is appreciated!
IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 540
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-12-2019 08:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not sure about that DeVille and DHS but the DTS has a TRACTION CONTROL OFF option, if that might make a difference in how the PCM and TCM operate the selection of 1st gear?
IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 13945
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 189
Rate this member

Report this Post11-12-2019 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

Not sure about that DeVille and DHS but the DTS has a TRACTION CONTROL OFF option, if that might make a difference in how the PCM and TCM operate the selection of 1st gear?


The issue with second gear starts is related to lack of signal from wheel speed sensors to the PCM.
IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13234
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post11-12-2019 08:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Hey Will,

Thanks. That's really good info to have for when we program the PCM.



What I said applies to the Cadillac PCM. Since you're using the 0411 with different software, you don't need to worry about that.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
sourmash
Member
Posts: 540
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-16-2019 09:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:


The issue with second gear starts is related to lack of signal from wheel speed sensors to the PCM.


Yes, I understood that which is why I went with the question of switch optioned cars. If the factory car has the option to switch off traction control does that switch off the seek for wheel speed sensors and allow 1st gear take off? Maybe not if it is also to control the anti-lock brakes. Anyway, the trans is pretty fricken heavy if you're going to use one. I've got 3. One grenaded by the previous owner when a solenoid let go internally. It's uncommon but I know of two 4t80e transmissions that the solenoid let go and fouled into the rotating torque convertor and broke the cases. My grenaded trans is a DTS/STS unit which has a higher numerical ratio final drive than the ordinary DHS or DeVille one. You can possibly swap in the higher ratio final drive and use a program from the STS/DTS if you wanted to.

If someone is going to utilize a used trans I'd suggest dropping the bottom pan to replace the solenoids with delco pieces, then pull the side pan to replace the TCC solenoid and the actual trans filter. The bottom pan 'filters' are just strainers. I installed a used trans in my DTS and the issue I have is a 2nd gear ratio incorrect message which prevents the trans from automatically switching to 2nd from first. I can manually switch it but it won't do it on it's own. The prob is supposed to be a communication issue between the internal VSS and external one.

[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 11-16-2019).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13234
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post11-16-2019 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

The issue with second gear starts is related to lack of signal from wheel speed sensors to the PCM.


Not exactly. 2nd gear starts result when the PCM doesn't get the "desired torque" signal from the EBTCM and responds by going into the torque limited "low traction" mode. Some people have had success by looping the "delivered torque" output from the PCM back to the "desired torque" input.

 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

I installed a used trans in my DTS and the issue I have is a 2nd gear ratio incorrect message which prevents the trans from automatically switching to 2nd from first. I can manually switch it but it won't do it on it's own. The prob is supposed to be a communication issue between the internal VSS and external one.



GMs heavy duty transmissions (4L80E, 4T80E and everything newer), use a "turbine speed sensor", which is really an input shaft speed sensor. The PCM compares input shaft speed to output shaft speed (from the VSS) and determines if the transmission is slipping or not. When it detects a ratio that isn't what it's looking for, it sets a code and avoids that gear. You need to match the trans programming in the PCM to the application the transmission came from and problem that will go away.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-16-2019).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 540
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-16-2019 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


GMs heavy duty transmissions (4L80E, 4T80E and everything newer), use a "turbine speed sensor", which is really an input shaft speed sensor. The PCM compares input shaft speed to output shaft speed (from the VSS) and determines if the transmission is slipping or not. When it detects a ratio that isn't what it's looking for, it sets a code and avoids that gear. You need to match the trans programming in the PCM to the application the transmission came from and problem that will go away.


And really you're just saying what I said, Will. Internal speed sensor talks to external and when they don't jibe it sets the code SECOND GEAR RATIO INCORRECT and you don't get an autoshift into 2nd. And AGAIN, the gear is still there if you manually shift. The problem will not go away by changing what is not incorrect already. It's a 9 VIN car with a 9 VIN transmission and 9 VIN PCM.
IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13234
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post11-17-2019 09:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A VSS is a particular thing. The input shaft speed sensor is a different particular thing. If you want to engage in technical conversation, terminology matters.

I'm assuming the transmission is not actually slipping...

Did you get your entire powertrain from the same car? Sounds like you didn't. What are the applications of the specific components? It's not that any one is incorrect... it's that you have a mis-match between two.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-17-2019).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 540
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-17-2019 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
A VSS is a particular thing. The input shaft speed sensor is a different particular thing. If you want to engage in technical conversation, terminology matters.

I'm assuming the transmission is not actually slipping...

Did you get your entire powertrain from the same car? Sounds like you didn't. What are the applications of the specific components? It's not that any one is incorrect... it's that you have a mis-match between two.


Well, the actual casual conversation between ole and I wasn't an exactly technical one so your statement is devoid of the actual context after the fact. It's nit-picked and can confuse the future reader by the distraction of technicalities. I'm not saying I'm averse to technical discussion, but the statements were a 'what can happen' accounting of my experiences and the actual results you'll see with problems I encountered. I did it right and used a like item VIN 9 in a similar VIN 9 app and it still has problems. If it can be diagnosed and remedied, that's more than the cadillacforums are offering at the moment. All I can find there is use Dex VI and see if it goes away--assuming the hard pieces are correct in the first place.

The trans may be slipping, but not that I can detect. At least not until it downshifts into passing mode and doesn't go into 2nd (revving RPMs but no lower gear engagement). The components could be mismatched but it's an '01 VIN 9 DTS with a VIN 9 trans from a similar year (2001 to 2003) STS installed by a local trans shop I've used for a couple of decades. It's been several yrs since I pulled the trans so I'm not positive anymore what the exact year the STS was, but it was in the range of compatibles as posted on the CadillacForums. I intend to get underneath it today to see if the stamped code tells me that info. For readers, there's an alum tag on the right rear of the trans, and to the left of that is a rectangular boss with dot matrix code stamped which tells the engine code and partial VIN. The engine code tells if it's a VIN 9 or VIN Y trans. I should be able to discern the exact year and model of the car from the partial serial number embossed. I spoke with the owner of the car prior to pulling the trans and he said it worked fine. So, if it turns out to be a Y then how did that happen in between pulling and having it installed will be my question.

If the trans was a Y code, then it should immediately set codes, yes? Because Y codes are something like 3.11 ratios and 9 codes are 3.77ish. The trans shop says it could be many different things but not likely a solenoid problem.
IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 540
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-17-2019 11:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok. It's an L37 code so it's a 9 VIN code transmission from that STS. From under the car you can't get a direct clear view even though the pad is the lowest part of the transmission, but an inspection scope works sorta. The cradle is very close to the pad there. The embossed code can be seen but the partial VIN isn't easy to discern. I recorded what is there on the scope but it has a couple of digits that look like characters instead of numbers/letters. Haven't transferred them to the computer to view yet, but the most important part is the L37 code.

The car isn't displaying the 2nd GEAR RATIO message anymore, but when in D it won't shift to 2nd. If at a dead stop I can put it in 2nd manually and take off, it starts in 1st and shifts to 2nd. Then I can manually shift to 3rd. Otherwise it never goes into 2 by itself. Never.

Below are standard camera shots.


[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 11-17-2019).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 540
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-18-2019 07:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Gee, no technial discussion? Took the car to 4 shops today and got no 2 answers the same. First said clutches, but I said the car works in 2nd very well when manually selected. He said the clutches for the gear might be fine but maybe not the something-something clutches (maybe he said CT clutches or something?). That exceeds my very limited experience. The 2nd place I can't even remember what he said; maybe it was you probably got a bad unit. The 3rd pulled the stick with car not running and said it was low being the problem. I explained it has to be running to even read on the stick, but it was still low when I started the car. Added 1 quart. No changes at all. Took to the 4th and he said look at the electrical connections, or a flattened pin in the connector. Possibly a solenoid.
My orig trans data plate is ML. The STS is VL. Not yet sure if that means anything to the issue. But the DeVille Y VIN eng/trans sets I have are marked VN I think.

My original trans data plate, ML, and the replacement one, VL. Comparable data tag codes appear on Oreilly's site for compatible transmissions, so with reading that I'm reassured that the trans is compatible.

[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 11-18-2019).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 540
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-19-2019 07:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've got two Northstar engines with transmissions available. These were pulled by me from insurance totals, each in good condition. Both were owned maintained by long time owners and in clean condition. Each was oil leak free and paperwork indicated long time ownership at time of accident. The problem with Northstars these days is there is almost no adequate help with issues available anymore so you have to be your own source.
IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 13301
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 320
Rate this member

Report this Post11-19-2019 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From what I have seen on You Tube the N* Fieros run mid 13 second 1/4 mile times. That's about what a stock 3800SC would run. The N* has more horsepower but with the 4T80 far more weight.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13234
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post11-20-2019 08:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you count 13.2 as "mid-" rather than "low-".

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot

next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock