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Can of worms- which one is all around better for upgrades 84-87, or the 88? by branger
Started on: 11-04-2019 07:43 PM
Replies: 23 (448 views)
Last post by: Will on 11-06-2019 04:03 PM
branger
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Report this Post11-04-2019 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for brangerClick Here to Email brangerSend a Private Message to brangerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So I have an 86 2M6, and am trying to restore and also do some brake upgrades. It made me wonder if a fellow was gonna drop turbo charged engine, do brake upgrades, suspension upgrades etc, etc... which Fiero is the best (most economical/easier.) to use as a platform... the 84-87 or the 88 Fiero?

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Gall757
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Report this Post11-04-2019 09:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

88s are good enough to keep stock and have an enjoyable car. Use earlier Fieros for major upgrading...they will thank you for it.

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cvxjet
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Report this Post11-04-2019 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The 88s are better at being stock- the earlier cars are better for mods- the front suspension is easier to get parts for and somewhat more durable, and then you can get an 88 rear subframe/suspension and swap it in- I went with 88 brakes all around, also.

The earlier cars have a bit more room between the shock towers for engines and stuff- the 88 won't limit your engine choices- but you just have a bit more room around the upper sides of the engine.

Get the lightest wheel/tire combo and the car will feel and work much better- 40 lbs off the unsprung/rotational weight equals taking 200 lbs off the car....

There are also some upgrades to the early cars from the later cars; The oil sensor and the headlight motors are much better (the headlights are 87-88 and the oil sensor is 88 specific- not too hard to swap in to early cars)

Just checked on ROW52 and there are 2 88s in the JY "Near" you; One in Lake Stevens, WA and one in Sherwood, OR...You could go get the rear subframe from one of them

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 11-04-2019).]

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branger
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Report this Post11-04-2019 09:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for brangerClick Here to Email brangerSend a Private Message to brangerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for your thoughts...love the Fiero community!

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Will
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Report this Post11-05-2019 08:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

If you put big sticky tires on any Fiero, you'll kill stock rear wheel bearings quickly. The '84-'87 cars are easily upgradeable. The '88's are not easily upgradeable.

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olejoedad
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Report this Post11-05-2019 08:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

All Fieros use the same rear wheel bearings.

Perhaps you meant to say front wheel bearings?

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wftb
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Report this Post11-05-2019 09:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The OEM rear wheel bearing seems to hold up fairly well. New replacement wheel bearings are getting destroyed all the time by people that are in to Lemons and Chump car etc.
As far as which car is better to mod mine is an 86 GT and I have modded the crap out of it because I got it cheap and it was meant to be my hobby car. And it was not in good enough shape to think about restoring. If it had been a pristine 88 GT I probably would have done nothing to it except drive it and maintain it. 84 to 87's are mostly cheap and plentiful cars, so who cars if you hack one up?

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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Will
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Report this Post11-05-2019 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Perhaps you meant to say front wheel bearings?


I did not.

'84-'87 cars can take hub carriers from FWD A-body cars with JA2 brakes and 27 spline 5x115 hub bearings. They can also take hub carriers from U-body Dustbuster minivans with 33 spline 5x115 hubs. Modifying those hub carriers to accept through bolts allows the carriers to accept 33 spline C7 Corvette wheel bearings.

There's no such upgrade path for '88's.

'84-'87 FRONT wheel bearings also survive use with slicks better than '88 front wheel bearings.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-05-2019).]

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Tesadorn
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Report this Post11-05-2019 12:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TesadornSend a Private Message to TesadornEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey guys... I have the opportunity to pickup a 5 speed 86 GT with 60K.... seems to be in good shape 100% stock... any MAJOR issue with using this as a starting point (to rebuild and possibly do a 3.8 swap) I already have a 87GT parts car (I think the frame is bad)
Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Tesadorn (edited 11-05-2019).]

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wftb
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Report this Post11-05-2019 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The most expensive part of fixing up an old car is getting it painted. So to me if you can find one that doesnt need a paint job that is a big plus. You have an 86 with the 5 speed getrag, the best of the stock transmissions.Nice seats if it has them are a bonus and save money.At 50,000 miles you might think it would be rust free but check it carefully, peel back the trunk carpet, look under the battery and get it on a hoist and check cradle, frame and suspension bits. And all the usual belts and hoses but you should be able to make a nice car out of it. If the engine runs well, drive it and enjoy it maybe you will just leave it stock. Can't see there being much wrong with it being that low in miles.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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Tesadorn
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Report this Post11-05-2019 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TesadornSend a Private Message to TesadornEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the reply.. I will go look tonight...was told it runs great... Is there a resource to understand the main differences between the 86GT vs the 87GT? I ask becaus e of the 87 parts car.. I want to understand whats usable vs not... I am a newb to fieros, (had one in 87 though haha) but am looking forward to ripping into them both!

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-05-2019 04:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

First, I will admit I have a strong bias for the 88s...

One of my favorite phrases is buy and 88 and save $1000 on your brake upgrade.

Beyond that, the 84-87 has several areas that just annoy me... front lower a-arm bushings are co-linear, so they bind by design with suspension travel. Upper a-arm camber/caster adjustment is limited and crude at best. Different caliper bracket mount locations front/rear (spacing, offset, thread pitch, etc)... The 88s have their share of issues, but they have a much more cohesive suspension design between the front and rear. With the tri-link rear setup you can run rod end lateral links to eliminate toe deflection during cornering w/o much impact at all to ride harshness.

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wftb
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Report this Post11-05-2019 04:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

86 and 87 only have a few differences- headlight actuators and gas tank on 87's are better than 86, there might be some other things but they are pretty much interchangeable.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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Spadesluck
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Report this Post11-05-2019 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

or just put an 88 cradle in it. Very good compromise between the years.

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olejoedad
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Report this Post11-05-2019 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I did not.

'84-'87 cars can take hub carriers from FWD A-body cars with JA2 brakes and 27 spline 5x115 hub bearings. They can also take hub carriers from U-body Dustbuster minivans with 33 spline 5x115 hubs. Modifying those hub carriers to accept through bolts allows the carriers to accept 33 spline C7 Corvette wheel bearings.

There's no such upgrade path for '88's.

'84-'87 FRONT wheel bearings also survive use with slicks better than '88 front wheel bearings.



Thanks for the information.
That is very good to know.

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lou_dias
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Report this Post11-05-2019 06:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

88 V6's use a heavier flywheel so they make 5 less hp.

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Tesadorn
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Report this Post11-05-2019 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TesadornSend a Private Message to TesadornEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Well I bought it..... I am both happy and sad... It was mis-represented.. Not a 5 speed but a 4... ... I still bought it as it is VERY clean... Its bone stock and very well maintained, garage kept with just light surface rust on normal areas... even the air works... I realize price is relative but is 2300 a bad price?

[This message has been edited by Tesadorn (edited 11-05-2019).]

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Gall757
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Report this Post11-05-2019 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

If you put a 3800 in it you will be very happy with the 4 speed transmission. Some like it better than the 5 speed.

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wftb
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Report this Post11-05-2019 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I am not up on prices stateside but up here 2300.00 for a roadworthy car with working AC and low miles would be a good deal. Mine originally came with the 4 speed, the 5 speed in the 86 GT was fairly rare.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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Will
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Report this Post11-06-2019 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

88 V6's use a heavier flywheel so they make 5 less hp.


Have part numbers? I call shenanigans.

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post11-06-2019 12:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I thought that the hp ratings were steady-state, so flywheel inertia wouldn't affect the ratings.

I remember handling external balance and neutral balance Fiero flywheels (both probably aftermarket jobber units), and they seemed similar, but I didn't have the foresight to weigh each one.

I thought the difference in hp ratings was simply unexplained.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 11-06-2019).]

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Flying_Dan
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Report this Post11-06-2019 12:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Flying_DanClick Here to Email Flying_DanSend a Private Message to Flying_DanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

or just put an 88 cradle in it. Very good compromise between the years.


This is what I'm doing. I found a nice 85'GT with 3400, but an AT (yuck). I've sourced almost all the pieces from an 88'GT with 5spd and will convert my 85' to the 88' rear cradle and 5spd.

I think it depends, if you can find a good example of an 88', get it. If you already have an earlier model, there is potential to update. Either way, lots of fun projects to get into.

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Gall757
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Report this Post11-06-2019 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I was told that there was a change in the EPA testing methods which used a lower RPM for the sample test. I am trying to confirm that explanation, but it may take some digging.

I can see where flywheel weight may affect a torque rating, but not HP.

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Will
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Report this Post11-06-2019 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

I thought that the hp ratings were steady-state, so flywheel inertia wouldn't affect the ratings.



Right. OEMs use brake dynos which use essentially steady-state RPM compared to a dynojet which measures rate of acceleration of a known load.

There are many speculations about why the horsepower rating changed.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-06-2019).]

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