Is it possible to do a 180 degree set up on the exhaust for the 3.8sc motor? Which pistons would i pair? My header kit came in today and i think it would be unique to hear and have.
Just thinking out loud guys. Im starting my exhaust and thought is ask.
There isn't a need for 180 degree headers on the 3800 (or the 60 degree V6 family either). The firing order alternates bank to bank with each firing pulse. So this means just having equal length headers on each side will give you equal exhaust pulses at the tail pipe (assuming the total exhaust from each bank is equal).
Most traditional V8s benefit from them as they have two cylinders on each bank fire back to back. The 180 headers effectively moves the out of sequence pulses into the exhaust of the other bank to get equally timed pulses on each bank.
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Not to be a dork, but it's not feasible to build 180-degree headers for an engine with a 120-degree firing interval.
Also, the purpose of 180 degree headers on an odd-fire V8 is to even out the exhaust pulses. But on the 3800, the exhaust pulses are already even. No special exhaust needed.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-16-2019).]
Well I'm not a guru on this either but I just want to transform the sound of this motor and exploring way to do this. I guess I would have a hurdle of pairing them at the collectors as well since one collector would have to have 4 primaries and the other would only have 2.
but from what fieroguru said its already firing in a "180 degree" fashion so there might not be any benefit to pair them differently.
The system I build if its just normal headers will be equal length shorties to an x pipe and out. everything will be equal length(both sides 100%) as I wont be crossing over the trans since my motor is longitudinal. I know I don't have a flat plane motor but I am just trying to get the most exotic ... OR unique sound I can out of this set up.
this video below is of the stock manifolds, crossover of the trans to a set of shorty bullets to N1's and it sounds ... horrible lol It was a system I through together very quickly and was really just a way to see if it transformed the sound. I don't think I changed much with it. My new set up will be 1 5/8's primaries and I went with dyno max shorty bullets this time. I will make my own X pipe like I did on the 911. The goal will be to create the shortest exhaust SYSTEM to try and change the pitch.. bunch of stuff I was reading on some crazy physics forum regarding exhaust and Ferrari's designs.. I KNOW I KNOW buy a Ferrari if you want a Ferrari sound.. just sharing my thought process on this journey lol
At the end of the day I think i'm stuck with the 3.8 sounding like.... a 3.8 lol go figure lol just about everything I've viewed on youtube for exhausts for these engines seems to vary .. very little.
thoughts?
Guys thank you very much for chiming in, I truly appreciate this forums and the fun spirit of car guys
180 degree headers for the 3800 V6 would be as follows:
A a minimum, you would have three 2-into-1 collectors; these collectors pairing the cylinders that are 180 degrees out of phase on a camshaft rotation.
From there, you could have a triple exit exhaust.
Or, the three pipes could combine in a 3-into-1 collector.
I don't know if this would give the sound you're after; I'm just saying that this is how "180 degree headers" would be implemented on the Buick V6.
I don't know if buying a genuine Ferrari muffler would transform the sound.
There's the "Taiwan" Fiero that has the sound you're looking for, so you may wish to copy that. It has some weird things going on, optimizing the cool sound over performance. I don't think it was some straightforward equal length header that makes sense for performance.
Also, maybe you want to figure this with the engine out of the car, so you can easily construct prototype exhausts from cheap mild steel, without the constraints of having to package the exhaust in the engine bay. After doing a series of cheap/ugly exhausts that cannot fit, you can select the winner and attempt to fit it in the engine bay.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-16-2019).]
180 degree headers for the 3800 V6 would be as follows:
A a minimum, you would have three 2-into-1 collectors; these collectors pairing the cylinders that are 180 degrees out of phase on a camshaft rotation.
From there, you could have a triple exit exhaust.
Or, the three pipes could combine in a 3-into-1 collector.
I don't know if this would give the sound you're after; I'm just saying that this is how "180 degree headers" would be implemented on the Buick V6.
I don't know if buying a genuine Ferrari muffler would transform the sound.
There's the "Taiwan" Fiero that has the sound you're looking for, so you may wish to copy that. It has some weird things going on, optimizing the cool sound over performance. I don't think it was some straightforward equal length header that makes sense for performance.
great post, thank you!!
The Ferrari muffler I don't think would help that much. over the last few weeks I've read a ton on there designs. The biggest contributor to there sound is the crank/motor of coarse and the shortness of the system. from what I've read they make the system extremely equal in length and they exit it out the back of the car asap. a lot of the set ups are pretty much headers to a resonator to help with drone and then out the back. My thinking with the dyno max bullets is to keep it diametrically small as can be to break up the duration of the pulses a bit. the X pipe from what I read is a big benefit to the sound as far as raising the pitch on a shorter system as well.
As far as performance... I called up zzp and ordered everything I could for the motor. so I think it should still put out plenty of power. Again not trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about. Just repeating everything I've been reading. the system I'm attempting will most likely affect low end if at all and These motor seem to have plenty of torque in a 2600lbs car to make it worth sacrificing a little bit to alter the sound.
the three into one or the three separate... now my brain is really smoking how I can pull this off lol
Like Guru said, two equal length pipes will give the V6 a similar sound to a 180 header car, specially at high RPMs! Below is the sound of it inside and outside of the car.
Like Guru said, two equal length pipes will give the V6 a similar sound to a 180 header car, specially at high RPMs! Below is the sound of it inside and outside of the car.
Originally posted by pmbrunelle: 180 degrees is in reference to camshaft degrees...
This is incorrect. The purpose of 180-degree headers is to have exhaust pulses in each header spaced evenly, i.e. 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation apart. (on an odd-fire V8)
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
You would pair together the following cylinders which are separated by 360 crankshaft degrees: 1, 4 6, 3 5, 2
... which makes them 360-degree headers, not 180-degree headers. I even mentioned this in the thread linked above.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-16-2019).]
so to sum up ... just make equal length headers and call it a day lol Either way I go I will be sure to post the video so everyone can hear how they sound.
Equal length headers on the 3800 V6 should be optimal for scavenging. And exhaust scavenging is important for performance. So if your primary concern is performance, that would be most desirable.
That said, there's nothing stopping you from trying other exhaust configurations, to modify the sound. You might be leaving a few HP on the table. But if you're OK with that, then no big deal.
Equal length headers on the 3800 V6 should be optimal for scavenging. And exhaust scavenging is important for performance. So if your primary concern is performance, that would be most desirable.
That said, there's nothing stopping you from trying other exhaust configurations, to modify the sound. You might be leaving a few HP on the table. But if you're OK with that, then no big deal.
ya I think the hp of the motor would still be nice even if I left a little on the table. about the only I didn't do to this motor is the aluminum heads and turbo. the 3 sets of 2 into 1 exhaust really sounds interesting and I bet it would make some very unique sound. I've been thinking about that set up since yesterday but the routing might be a bigger headache that I want so right now i'm tossing around that vs the equal length to x to out.
I wish there was more video's and examples of people experimenting with this motor for sound. most of the stuff on youtube is all the same with very little difference.
One problem that you might encounter building an intricate exhaust with lots of piping is heat radiation. The longer the pipe the more heat you'll radiate under your decklid. That's why I took mine from under the car and re routed it over the transmission and made it shorter too. Of course, the length of my exhaust was primarily designed to match the power band of my engine.
One problem that you might encounter building an intricate exhaust with lots of piping is heat radiation. The longer the pipe the more heat you'll radiate under your decklid. That's why I took mine from under the car and re routed it over the transmission and made it shorter too. Of course, the length of my exhaust was primarily designed to match the power band of my engine.
good point. but for my set up I don't think I would have as much of an issue as most of the 3.8 swaps with that. the motor is mounted longitudinally and the exhaust goes rearward with the transmission is forward. from the pullies on my motor to the bumper on my car is probably 12 inches.. if that. so my exhaust will be very short regardless of the route I choose as long as I go out the back.
i'm going to start in the next couple days so a decision will be made and i'll cross my fingers lol
Well i made them. Would anyone care to post the picks for me? They are all equal length within 3/16 and each runner is 6 1/4 long. The collector is 2 1/2 .
Im working on the Xpipe and shorty mufflers now. Should have them done in a few days.
I have not. I have made my own exhaust but this was my first attempt at headers. I need to clean up the welds a bit and get them coated . More picks in a few days.
John 4,9 you should see the project im making these for.. quite the ride. Its not a fiero so dont want to upset the forum with non fiero cars. But this seems to be the place to go for 3.8 info and help. Lots of knowledge here.
[This message has been edited by ttt123 (edited 10-27-2019).]
What is your procedure to keep the V-bands undistorted?
I found that if I didn't clamp them onto a mating part during welding, I had to sand them flat afterwards.
Tack weld around the circumference like a clock/pie till its all secured. This was my first attempt at headers but the exhaust i made last year for my 911 did ok. Ill post up the results of this one so people can see the warp or no warp for there own knowledge when finished.
Those headers look nice. I'd like to see (and hear) the engine running with them installed.
it's going to be a while as I'm doing the swap now but I will update this thread with a link to video so you guys can hear it. I still have to make the rest of the exhaust as well and I'll put those pics up hopefully within the next week or two.
Those headers are very short so combined with the X-pipe and the dynomax shorties.. I'm really.. really excited to hear this system. From what I've read.. this should bring up the pitch and its going to be LOUD lol I love loud. lolol
Well said!! X2
