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V6 intake dimensions... and potentially more by atv_123
Started on: 07-12-2019 12:02 PM
Replies: 12 (372 views)
Last post by: Dennis LaGrua on 07-18-2019 04:51 AM
atv_123
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Report this Post07-12-2019 12:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for atv_123Send a Private Message to atv_123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello all you engine builders out there, I need your help.

I am looking at "potentially" doing something a little crazy with my engine (which I am not going to reveal quite yet... I haven't worked out all the details) which involves making a few completely 1 off 100% custom parts.

To build these parts and build them properly, I need dimensions and a lot of them. Most times when people are rebuilding engines they are either adding prebuilt parts or modifying parts that already exist for the particular engine in question... this is not one of those times

Now I would go and measure my engine, but a Fiero engine (as you all know) is just absolutely covered in things that makes measuring just about anything on it rather difficult. I did actually manage to find some really old magazines on the 60v6 that had (for whatever reason) blueprints of the actual engine block (huge help on something like this) so that I could model it up for mock ups... it also had some dimensions for the heads (enough for me anyways) and just a couple for the interface of the lower intake to the heads and the block... other than that though... I have got nothing. Second reason I don't measure my car is because it's currently in the shop getting all new tie rod ends and an alignment... so there's that.

Anyways, the reason I am doing this is because I have seen through my reading that the intake on these cars is the most restrictive part of the car, and as far as I can tell... it seems to mostly be concentrated in the top most portion of the intake (the part that says Fiero on it) so I plan to scrap that intake and make a new one...

How am I gonna do it though.... well that's a good question as proposing something like this would normally be met with "your crazy" and "it will be far too much work" and "just do something a bit simpler"

But isn't that the point? We don't do things because they are easy, we do them because they are hard... that and it's fun.

The "How" in how am I going to do this is basically:

1. I am a trained and experienced modeler. I plan to 3D model literally everything before I make it to try and make sure it will fit before I even get the thing in the real world.
2. I have access to a plethora of 3D printers, some high detail, some large format, so I have the ability to take my 3D modeled parts, print them in full scale, and slap them on my car to test if they will fit first before I dump lots of money on something stupid.
3. I happen to have access to a full blown 5 axis CNC... yeah... like a full blown production machine... except ours will never be used in production which makes it all the better for me as I can do whatever I want with it.
4. I am literally getting PAID to do this. I even told my boss what shenanigans I would be up to... telling him exactly that I would be designing an intake for my car and using this machine to make it, and he was all for it. "It will be good training and experience" he said... sure... whatever... I just wanna make stuff and go fast.

Having said all of that, I will tell you all at least this much. My plan involves boost, I plan on keeping the original fuel rail intact (injectors will need upgraded obviously), and things may get out of hand rather quickly so I may just revert back to an NA setup and just improve that... but you know... the sky is really the limit here.

SO... on to my actual question... for anyone who currently has a v6 pulled apart and laying around or somehow has access to drawings (or your better at google than I am) I need dimensions... and a lot of them.

First set... I am looking for the dimensions of the intermediate intake (the big V part) Opening dimensions, hole locations, height, width, distance from each side to the font of the block... The more I get, the better I can do.

Second set... I guess the distributor and the coolant cap/thermostat housing... not a lot there, but diameter, height (with wires on) from the block, and an X, Y location if possible... the drawings I found have a dimension off the back of the block, so I guess I have that, but not side to side. As for the thermostat housing I have literally nothing... I can get the diameter off my car, but with the engine installed I can't get much else other than guess locations.

Third set... Pulley sizes and locations... naturally I know where the crank pulley is, but everything else is all over... incase I get a little crazy I want to make sure I don't hit anything... that and I might need the crank pulley size (at least how far it sticks out off the front of the block... hehe)

If someone wants to get ambitious... the engine bay... any dimensions or pictures you could get me... heck, you know how to make 3D scans with your phone? Even better... go nuts... the more information I have the better... ESPECIALLY when it comes to hood clearance... I am trying to keep things all under the stock hood but if things get a little crazy... well... you know what might have to go down....

Anywho... this all might just amount to nothing... but if it all goes well... I could even upload ALL the plans on here so that anyone could take the plans down to their local machine shop and have them make one up for you as well. Granted... this currently is kinda just a personal project... for fun and all... but hey... I am all for giving back to the community.
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BadNewsBrendan
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Report this Post07-12-2019 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BadNewsBrendanSend a Private Message to BadNewsBrendanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So you are doing a turbo/ supercharger build with a custom intake. Would look into other threads on how much boost the stock internals can handle before you go too crazy designing stuff and design around that unless you are also planning on building a custom engine. I don't know much about the 2.8 but theres plenty of turbo build threads on here. Would love to see some CFD simulations on a custom intake if you have access to that kind of software. Otherwise you are pretty much just guessing but probably plenty of room for improvement on the stock design.

Also, where can I get a boss like yours?

[This message has been edited by BadNewsBrendan (edited 07-12-2019).]

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atv_123
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Report this Post07-12-2019 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for atv_123Send a Private Message to atv_123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BadNewsBrendan:

So you are doing a turbo/ supercharger build with a custom intake. Would look into other threads on how much boost the stock internals can handle before you go too crazy designing stuff and design around that unless you are also planning on building a custom engine. I don't know much about the 2.8 but theres plenty of turbo build threads on here. Would love to see some CFD simulations on a custom intake if you have access to that kind of software. Otherwise you are pretty much just guessing but probably plenty of room for improvement on the stock design.

Also, where can I get a boss like yours?



Yeah, I know... he is really awesome... I got way too lucky...

As for the engine in question, I determined (through a different thread on here) that I am running a 3.4 rather than a 2.8... so I guess I am "technically" going to be making this for with the 3.4 in mind... but honestly, it should work on a 2.8 as well as from all the reading I have been doing, it looks like the top and of all these 60v6 engines seems to be almost identical (all the iron heads anyways). The reason I decided to go boosted with this is because, after doing a lot of reading, I came across an article that claims to have run this engine with as much as 21psi of boost... well... before it went boom... on completely stock internals and recommended that a completely stock bottom end should be safe around 11. Now I don't know if I will even take my setup that far... I am not looking for FACE MELTING PERFORMANCE... this is almost more of an exercise of I did because I could kinda nonsense.

You can read the article I found here and tell me whether this is complete BS or not... it seems to be legit though and a fair amount of trial, error, and research seems to have gone into it... granted, like I said before, if boosted on a stock engine just isn't the way to go on this thing, then I will probably redesign just a flat out better intake for NA as from all the reading I have done, this seems to be the weak point.

https://books.google.com/bo...%20gm%20safe%20boost %20levels&f=false

I recommend page 28

Unfortunately I don't have any CFD... I have FEA, Cyclic loading analysis, Dynamic motion analysis... but no CFD (yet... might be able to convince someone )... but I might know some people who do... so when I get that far I could always send the model off to them to get some real numbers back... or I guess the cheapo way would be to do a bench test with a 3D model that I print... granted that doesn't have all the nice pretty visuals in place like we would all like to see.

[This message has been edited by atv_123 (edited 07-12-2019).]

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post07-12-2019 01:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been in that ideal 3D world, where the OEM sends you a 3D CAD file of their vehicle (some portion of it), and then they ask you to fit a certain widget in some zone of available space.
So, you draw things in the CAD software, drag things around, and you can assemble a prototype with relatively few fitment issues the first time.
That's one way of working, and to one of my work colleagues, the only way of working. He says, "you can't start anything until you have the 3D CAD file".

That work colleague does not dabble in auto modification on his own time...

Your requests for drawings are unreasonable. First, the Fiero is old, so probably most of the drawings have been lost. Second, supposing that the drawings haven't been lost and that some GM employee could still access them, the GM employee couldn't just hand out these drawings like candy; they would be considered proprietary information.

If you think somebody is going to get off their butt, take measurements for you, and make drawings (2D or 3D), good luck with that.

Right now it sounds like you have a personal toolbox which is dominated by CAD software.

To dive into the world of auto modification, you're going to have to think another way; add some different work methods to that toolbox:
Transfer punches for transferring bolt patterns
Straightedges for pulley alignment
String for measuring belt length
Measure hardpoints/interfaces precisely, then eyeball the rest. 3D-printing is a good way to check if the eyeballed sections of your 3D CAD drawings interfere with anything
Install and pull the engine repeatedly to check for clearances

Here I have an example of "the auto modification world" vs. "the 3D CAD world".

To place a turbo in the engine bay, if you have 3D CAD, you would specify the turbo's XYZ coordinates, and the 3 angles to fully define it. Then, you look around for clearances.

In the auto modification hobby world, I didn't have the CAD of the Fiero. Yet, I managed to position the turbo (all translation and rotation degrees of freedom defined), in a spot having just about 3/8" clearance in places. I built an adjustable support that allowed me to finely adjust the position and angle... effectively simulating what a CAD user does:


Once the position was locked in, and the turbo inlet flange welded to the exhaust piping, the turbo was fully defined. At that point, the adjustable support was discarded.

Sounds like you just need to adjust your work methods.
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atv_123
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Report this Post07-12-2019 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for atv_123Send a Private Message to atv_123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

I've been in that ideal 3D world, where the OEM sends you a 3D CAD file of their vehicle (some portion of it), and then they ask you to fit a certain widget in some zone of available space.
So, you draw things in the CAD software, drag things around, and you can assemble a prototype with relatively few fitment issues the first time.
That's one way of working, and to one of my work colleagues, the only way of working. He says, "you can't start anything until you have the 3D CAD file".

That work colleague does not dabble in auto modification on his own time...

Your requests for drawings are unreasonable. First, the Fiero is old, so probably most of the drawings have been lost. Second, supposing that the drawings haven't been lost and that some GM employee could still access them, the GM employee couldn't just hand out these drawings like candy; they would be considered proprietary information.

If you think somebody is going to get off their butt, take measurements for you, and make drawings (2D or 3D), good luck with that.

Right now it sounds like you have a personal toolbox which is dominated by CAD software.

To dive into the world of auto modification, you're going to have to think another way; add some different work methods to that toolbox:
Transfer punches for transferring bolt patterns
Straightedges for pulley alignment
String for measuring belt length
Measure hardpoints/interfaces precisely, then eyeball the rest. 3D-printing is a good way to check if the eyeballed sections of your 3D CAD drawings interfere with anything
Install and pull the engine repeatedly to check for clearances

Here I have an example of "the auto modification world" vs. "the 3D CAD world".

To place a turbo in the engine bay, if you have 3D CAD, you would specify the turbo's XYZ coordinates, and the 3 angles to fully define it. Then, you look around for clearances.

In the auto modification hobby world, I didn't have the CAD of the Fiero. Yet, I managed to position the turbo (all translation and rotation degrees of freedom defined), in a spot having just about 3/8" clearance in places. I built an adjustable support that allowed me to finely adjust the position and angle... effectively simulating what a CAD user does:


Once the position was locked in, and the turbo inlet flange welded to the exhaust piping, the turbo was fully defined. At that point, the adjustable support was discarded.

Sounds like you just need to adjust your work methods.


Alright, to redefine what I was getting at... I don't expect people to do any creation of anything for me... not in the slightest. That would just be kinda silly and would rather defeat the purpose of this exercise, so if I came off that way, I apologize.

Also, I know that people are probably not going to have drawings just laying around... most don't. But every once in a while, there is some guy that has something just laying around that they shouldn't have had in the first place... so I figured for that one guy... if he exists... I would stick that in there... my whole job is reverse engineering things anyways so to have an actual drawing would be a dream, but I hardly expect that to actually happen.

Finally, when it comes down to it, if no one had one just laying around to actually measure, I was just going to buy one off ebay or something so I wouldn't have to pull my car apart... they seem to come up pretty often for about $20 to $30 it seems and then just measure it myself... but if someone had one already, then I figured a couple measurements wouldn't have been much to ask.

As for the whole toolbox thing, I thank you for the tips, I use those a lot on a daily basis already. I know it sounds like I am just an office worker, but I spend more time under and in cars/machines than just digitally guessing at them I swear. I also am a guy of reason though, so I will not be walking in here with that "Holier than thou" attitude I see all too often on forums like this... I like to look at things open mindedly and from all different perspectives. I am open to all opinions, suggestions, and new methods of doing things... like your turbo... I like that... never seen it done quite like that before... last time I helped a friend set one up for his car it was more a game of "hold it in place while I tac it with the welder" kinda deal... nowhere near as professional It was jankey, but it worked (kinda)

Another reason though that I wanted to model it up was because I can create a model VERY quickly that will show me that something will fit or not while in real life I need to either go out and buy the parts, or get something of similar size and shape to line it all up with... not that that is a bad way of doing it... but you know... most people choose the cheapest route... that's basically what I was going for here.

[This message has been edited by atv_123 (edited 07-12-2019).]

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BadNewsBrendan
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Report this Post07-12-2019 02:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BadNewsBrendanSend a Private Message to BadNewsBrendanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Obviously people chose to do things different ways and packaging can be done with cad models or actually in the engine bay depending on the tools you have and how you prefer to do things. If you have software to get you a good starting point, can do rapid prototyping and enjoy doing it then thats awesome. If you are good at just mocking stuff up on the fly and making it work than thats awesome. Sounds like a fun project and a great way to practice modeling and using the cnc and 3D printer.

We like to make fun of other engineers here and ourselves when things on prototypes don't line up saying "Well it works in the model." The manufacturing people don't like that very much
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atv_123
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Report this Post07-12-2019 02:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for atv_123Send a Private Message to atv_123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BadNewsBrendan:

Obviously people chose to do things different ways and packaging can be done with cad models or actually in the engine bay depending on the tools you have and how you prefer to do things. If you have software to get you a good starting point, can do rapid prototyping and enjoy doing it then thats awesome. If you are good at just mocking stuff up on the fly and making it work than thats awesome. Sounds like a fun project and a great way to practice modeling and using the cnc and 3D printer.

We like to make fun of other engineers here and ourselves when things on prototypes don't line up saying "Well it works in the model." The manufacturing people don't like that very much


Yeah, I all too often end up with things that don't line up in real life when what I have designed on the computer lines up perfectly... and it comes down to a number of things. I measured something wrong, someone else gave me a wrong measurement, whomever makes the final product didn't read the print correctly or just plain ole skipped part of it (that happens SOOO often), I forget to add a critical dimension to the final drawing (I have done that a few times too)... so on and so forth... honestly the list is never ending.

And I get it... I totally get it... that and everyone hates the engineer. Your working on your car, you look at how to get at the particular part that is broken, and then see that there is no way to get it out without tearing EVERYTHING apart... and then we swear up and down if we ever meet the guy that designed that we are gonna punch them in the teeth... We have all been there including me... many, many times.

That is why I try to use these 3D printers as much as possible when I design things. I can see how they function in the real world within 24 hours and only a couple bucks rather than spending thousands and waiting weeks only to discover that there was a major flaw in my design that completely overlooked and I have now made a $5,000 paperweight.

I try as hard as possible to be competent and think things through to the best of my ability but... well... no ones perfect.

Edit: Also Also... the reason I am doing this in CAD is just because... well... that's the easiest way to interface with the CNC. Thats it really... no real crazy reason... I could program it by hand, but to get the nice smooth surfaces a high flow intake requires, it's going to need a lot of curves... so it's just easier to do it in CAD.

and for anyone curious I will be using Autodesk Inventor as that's what I am most familiar with.

[This message has been edited by atv_123 (edited 07-12-2019).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-12-2019 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You will get a lot better results and a higher degree of precision if you just by a junk engine and take all the measurements yourself...
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Report this Post07-12-2019 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds like a fun and intriguing project. I wish I could help take some measurements for you. I don't get why people are pushing so hard back when it is just a matter of taking some measurements if you can.. oh well, Good luck on your project and I hope to see some of your work on it posted.
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Report this Post07-15-2019 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

You will get a lot better results and a higher degree of precision if you just by a junk engine and take all the measurements yourself...


Yeah... I was pretty much thinking the same thing.
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Report this Post07-16-2019 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Reinventing the wheel is usually a waste of time and money.

GM improved the V6-60 when they ditched the cast iron heads and the restrictive Fiero intake manifold. A stock 3400 flows about as well as a set of fully race prepped cast iron heads, so why not start there with the alloy heads and improve them? If you don't want to do that, then at least adopt the later 3.4 intake as if flows quite a bit better than the Fiero version.

As for turbo, I ran my Fiero turbo engine (3.2 l - using the longer stroke of the 3.1/3.4 engines) for 20 years using 10-11 psi of boost and it was dead reliable at the c. 300 bhp range of output.

I use an NA 3.4 in my old British sports car as with 2000 lbs. to haul around I didn't need more than around 200 bhp. Look at the intake - you can customize it as you like.



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Report this Post07-17-2019 07:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BillS:

Reinventing the wheel is usually a waste of time and money.

GM improved the V6-60 when they ditched the cast iron heads and the restrictive Fiero intake manifold. A stock 3400 flows about as well as a set of fully race prepped cast iron heads, so why not start there with the alloy heads and improve them? If you don't want to do that, then at least adopt the later 3.4 intake as if flows quite a bit better than the Fiero version.



Ditto.

If OP just wants to make stuff, by all means do so. If OP wants to go fast, start with a better engine.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post07-18-2019 04:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For a simple learning experience I am all for the OP's project but if he builds something and decides to add boost the 2.8L has limitations on what it can take especially if the engine is high mileage. Boosting does overcome much of the intake restrictions and will dramatically boost power but the pistons are ordinary cast units and if they are high mileage??????
Best way to get dimensions of a Fiero intake is to buy the 3 pc setup or find a member close by that will loan you one.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
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