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V6 valve cover spacers have arrived! by lou_dias
Started on: 07-10-2019 12:58 PM
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Last post by: 82-T/A [At Work] on 10-09-2019 06:11 AM
lou_dias
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Report this Post07-10-2019 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



This is basically for people who want to run aluminum full roller rockers from Summit 1.6 ratio. This will let you use the Firebird 2.8 valve cover gasket under the Fiero valve cover gasket. It's 1/8" thick. Made out of aluminum.
I should have them installed [hopefully] within the next 2 weeks. I'll tweak the design based on any issues I encounter. They are CNC cut designed by me.

These are the rockers I'm talking about. Summit used to make their own brand which were more inexpensive:
https://www.summitracing.co...cc-scp1036/overview/


EDIT:

Here are the spacers installed:

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-02-2019).]

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SCCA FIERO
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Report this Post07-10-2019 01:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SCCA FIEROSend a Private Message to SCCA FIEROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Let me know when ready.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post07-11-2019 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Good solution for raising the valve covers for high lift rockers, but when you raise the lift you may also need to scrap the stock intake manifold setup..

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[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-11-2019).]

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lou_dias
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Report this Post07-11-2019 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Good solution for raising the valve covers for high lift rockers, but when you raise them you may also need to scrap the stock intake manifold setup..

No, not at all. The valve covers go off at a 60 degree angle and don't hit the middle manifold.

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Doug85GT
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Report this Post07-11-2019 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Doug85GTSend a Private Message to Doug85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

No, not at all. The valve covers go off at a 60 degree angle and don't hit the middle manifold.


I think he means that the stock intake manifold is too restrictive. That could cap your performance gains.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post07-11-2019 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Doug85GT:


I think he means that the stock intake manifold is too restrictive. That could cap your performance gains.


Post corrected. Thanks

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post07-11-2019 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Even if your high-RPM breathing is choked by the factory intake, full roller rockers may prevent high-RPM durability issues with stock rockers, such as scuffing of the ball and socket.

Also, the reduction in friction applies to all RPMs... so it may be a worthwhile mod regardless of how modified your 2.8 is.

Lou, how much space will there be between the valve cover and the rocker when the spacer and cork gasket is installed?

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lou_dias
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Report this Post07-12-2019 08:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'll already running 2 gaskets with full roller rockers and there is still clearance. This is only an additional 1/8" so I already know they will clear. These spacers are insurance for even higher-lift cams and also because the stacked gaskets with no spacer leads to oil leaks.

I will hopefully have them installed before my next race on the 20th. I need my exhaust repaired and a couple of other things so I also dropped of the spacers for installation.

As for performance gains, you can cross-drill some holes at the bottom of the middle intake to increase top-end performance as I have shown (admittedly I may have went overboard in my mod):
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/142715.html

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-12-2019).]

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mcguiver3
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Report this Post07-12-2019 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

where are you racing?

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lou_dias
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Report this Post07-12-2019 09:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by mcguiver3:

where are you racing?


Seekonk Speedway in Massachusetts

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-01-2019 09:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Valve cover spacers went in without issue.
Concerns of clearance have been greatly exaggerated.
I'll post a video and/or pictures on Saturday when I'm prepping for the race that afternoon.

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randy86
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Report this Post08-01-2019 09:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randy86Click Here to Email randy86Send a Private Message to randy86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Would you not need 2 sets of gaskets for both the top and bottom of plate or am I missing something?

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-01-2019 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2 for the bottom and top each? No. That's just ridiculous. You have 2 heads and 2 valve covers so a "set" has 2 gaskets. And you need 2 sets total. 1 Firebird 2.8 set and 1 Fiero set for your whole engine.

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-01-2019 09:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Post corrected. Thanks

Gotcha. I posted in another thread how to gain 22 rwhp at 6000 rpm from the STOCK intake manifold. Simple cross-drill some holes in the walls between the ports of your middle intake manifold near where it meets the lower intake manifold.

I mean if you need more valve cover clearance - you're already doing a performance build to 3.4+L anyway. Though I suppose even stock 2.8 would benefit from 1.6 full roller rockers ... just not as much...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-01-2019).]

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randy86
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Report this Post08-01-2019 10:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randy86Click Here to Email randy86Send a Private Message to randy86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

2 for the bottom and top each? No. That's just ridiculous. You have 2 heads and 2 valve covers so a "set" has 2 gaskets. And you need 2 sets total. 1 Firebird 2.8 set and 1 Fiero set for your whole engine.


How do you seal the top of the spacer to the valve cover then?

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-01-2019 10:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by randy86:
How do you seal the top of the spacer to the valve cover then?

/facepalm

The spacer goes between the Firebird gasket on the head and the Fiero gasket on the valve cover.

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-02-2019 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Spacers installed:

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La fiera
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Report this Post08-04-2019 08:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Spacers installed:


Nice job Lou!

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Report this Post08-05-2019 12:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Fits like a glove!

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-05-2019 07:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I need to order a set for my daily 3.4 Formula but no rush. So now is the time to get a head count. I'll try to come up with pricing. I'd like to order at least 10 sets even if I only get a count of 7 or so just to try to make them as affordable as possible.
I paid roughly $240 for this set, not including the prototypes I had 3D printed. Goal is to keep it under $100 a set.

There's probably a sweet spot on pricing where a whole sheet of aluminum can be cut at once and as many as possible cut from it. Does anyone know what are the dimensions of a sheet?

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Report this Post08-05-2019 09:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Normally, the more parts you order, the cheaper (per part) you'll be quoted.

Don't worry about an order needing 1.1 sheets and thinking that the unit cost will be greater than a slightly smaller order fitting on 1.0 sheets.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 08-05-2019).]

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Report this Post08-05-2019 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

FWIW, roller rockers don't really do anything for an engine compared to a properly setup and adjusted valvetrain with heavy duty studs. Engine Masters did an A/B test of several sets of rockers, and even going to a 1.6:1 rocker wasn't worth much at all(roller 1.5:1 didn't change anything). and that's on a SBC with 4 more rockers than a 60V6. I personally wouldn't go through the effort to use them unless my engine had a non adjustable valvetrain, and I needed adjustable to correct a geometry issue.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-05-2019 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

FWIW - when using a 3400 roller cam block for a 3.4 build - 1.6 roller rockers are required to get the STOCK cam lift of the roller block. Otherwise you're back to the stock .410" of the stock Fiero cam as far as peak lift goes. I also identified exactly which full roller rockers these are for because you can source STOCK 1.6 roller fulcrum-only rockers from a GEN2 3.1 if that's what someone wanted to use.

Let me re-iterate... All roller cam max lift specs are for 1.6 rockers, not 1.5 ratio. Regardless of that, other Fiero owners have shown that the H260 cam ends up with the same specs as the H272 just by using 1.6 rockers instead of 1.5 and dyno results have shown an improvement.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-05-2019).]

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Report this Post08-05-2019 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

1.6:1 stamped rockers, $62 for a set of 16.

https://www.summitracing.co.../sum-g6801/overview/

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-05-2019 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

perhaps the term "full roller" is lost on you?

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-05-2019).]

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-05-2019 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

perhaps the term "full roller" is lost on you?

Allow me to quote myself with emphasis added:

 
quote
This is basically for people who want to run aluminum full roller rockers from Summit 1.6 ratio.

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Report this Post08-05-2019 04:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I was simply pointing out, that it is proven that roller rockers aren't really worth anything from a performance standpoint. roller fulcrum, like LSx and 3x00 rockers offer ease of assembly for OEM compared to having to adjust a ball fulcrum, you mentioned the low lift of a stock 3x00 cam with 1.5 rockers, and I showed that you can obtain a 1.6:1 rocker dirt cheap, without having to use spacers, bolt in and go, with 4 spares for well under $100.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-05-2019 04:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I was simply pointing out, that it is proven that roller rockers aren't really worth anything from a performance standpoint. roller fulcrum, like LSx and 3x00 rockers offer ease of assembly for OEM compared to having to adjust a ball fulcrum, you mentioned the low lift of a stock 3x00 cam with 1.5 rockers, and I showed that you can obtain a 1.6:1 rocker dirt cheap, without having to use spacers, bolt in and go, with 4 spares for well under $100.


and I have posted that stock 1.6 roller fulcrum rockers from a gen2 3.1 can be sourced for cheaper ... so why do you keep going OFF TOPIC when I stated what this thread was SPECIFICALLY about from the beginning?

Oh to troll as usual...I get it...

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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-26-2019 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have a limited supply of these showing up in about 5 days.
email or message me if interested...

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Report this Post09-28-2019 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for marc-alanSend a Private Message to marc-alanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Do the 1.6 roller rockers not fit under the stock fiero valve covers? Is this what your product addresses?

Marc-Alan

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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-28-2019 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by marc-alan:

Do the 1.6 roller rockers not fit under the stock fiero valve covers? Is this what your product addresses?

Marc-Alan


yes...but specifically "FULL ROLLER ROCKERS" compared to normal ones or the roller fulcrum ones from some GEN2 aluminum head motors. They fit using the F-body gasket under the Fiero gasket but without the spacer, oil leaks will happen.

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Report this Post10-09-2019 06:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I was simply pointing out, that it is proven that roller rockers aren't really worth anything from a performance standpoint. roller fulcrum, like LSx and 3x00 rockers offer ease of assembly for OEM compared to having to adjust a ball fulcrum, you mentioned the low lift of a stock 3x00 cam with 1.5 rockers, and I showed that you can obtain a 1.6:1 rocker dirt cheap, without having to use spacers, bolt in and go, with 4 spares for well under $100.



Perhaps not perceivably when they are the same ratio; however, there's usually less friction which means less heat and somewhat more efficient, and they're typically less noisy. So, all around a better option to normal stamped rocker arms.

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