I'm thinking of doing a V8 swap, but I have some questions. I know that there are kits available, but are they necessary? There are pretty expensive. Also, any recommendations on which engine to use?
[This message has been edited by Chief08 (edited 07-06-2019).]
You need to determine what you want, If you just want seat of the pants performance , and a good sound , then do the 4.9 caddy swap. If you want real performance then do the ls4 swap,but good luck with a trans to hold up!
the choice of engine will all depend on many things like how much power you want or do you want torque do you want the american pushrod engine or DOHC so you have many things to consider . Me i Like the Audi V8 with supercharger that i did installed longitudinal and other like a 4.9 some like a good old 350 chevy others Ls4 so you have many engine choices just you need to decide what you are looking for.
I currently have a 2017 Camaro SS, I would to use the same 6.2 L, but I don't know if that has too much HP/torque for the axles etc. If I do the swap, I'll most likely upgrade to the G6 6spd manual
[This message has been edited by Chief08 (edited 07-06-2019).]
I think fieroguru nailed it. The old adage "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" should be the deciding factor. Do you have unlimited funds and time, or are you just looking for a bit more push?
A 3.4 is virtually a drop in, has good torque, is buildable, and easy on the wallet. You can also put a 426 hemi in, but it'll take a bit more work.
I want a fully modern engine, it doesn't have to be the 6.2 necessarily, I could also do the 5.7L. Those V6s are ok, but I love the sound and torque of the V8. The only V6 I would consider is probably the 3800SC. I have a buget of about $10K.
Best source of V8 swap information is V8Archie. While not as active as he once was he has probably done more V8 Fiero swaps than anyone else. One owner here in NJ has one of his LS3 swaps. AFAIK he still makes V8 swap kits and has a website. V8 Archie
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-06-2019).]
Originally posted by Chief08: I was looking at his website, that's why I mentioned the kits. Are they necessary? They cost almost as much as an engine.
The RWD LS engines will not bolt to any of the common FWD transmissions, so you need an adapter plate, flywheel and starter setup plus engine/transmission mounts, water pump setup, exhaust, harness, etc... It all adds up, even if you buy the parts separately.
The F40 is a great transmission, but just about everything has to be new (can't reuse most fiero parts - mounts, axles, vss, cables, clutch, etc) which makes it a spendy upgrade. However, it is quite strong and the only manual transmission with a 3.091 final drive upgrade that will make the overall gearset more favorable for a high torque V8... but swapping the gearset is nearly a $1500 to $2500 upgrade by itself, depending on if you can do the gear swap yourself or have to pay someone to do it for you.
The LS4 (aluminum 5.3 in FWD configuration) does have the GM Metric bellhousing, so it will bolt to most of the FWD transmissions (including the F40). It comes factory with 303 hp and coupled with the 4T65e-hd automatic (no manual transmission option). You can get the engine/transmission for under $2K and most of the parts for the LS4/4T65e-hd swap for under an additional 3-4K. There have been 15+ LS4/4T65e-hd swaps so far and they are the cheapest way to LS power in a Fiero. Several build threads are documented here on PFF. The more parts you buy, vs. making, the higher the cost.
The LS4/F40 has only been done a handful of times, but you can do that swap for under $10K with a few deals on parts. Here is my LS4/F40 (382 whp /335 wtq) build thread where I pioneered the swap and fully documented every part I used - is has been completed 6 years and logged over 50K miles. My LS4/F40 also has the F40 3.091 final drive swap. //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000123.html
The RWD LS engines will not bolt to any of the common FWD transmissions, so you need an adapter plate, flywheel and starter setup plus engine/transmission mounts, water pump setup, exhaust, harness, etc... It all adds up, even if you buy the parts separately.
The F40 is a great transmission, but just about everything has to be new (can't reuse most fiero parts - mounts, axles, vss, cables, clutch, etc) which makes it a spendy upgrade. However, it is quite strong and the only manual transmission with a 3.091 final drive upgrade that will make the overall gearset more favorable for a high torque V8... but swapping the gearset is nearly a $1500 to $2500 upgrade by itself, depending on if you can do the gear swap yourself or have to pay someone to do it for you.
The LS4 (aluminum 5.3 in FWD configuration) does have the GM Metric bellhousing, so it will bolt to most of the FWD transmissions (including the F40). It comes factory with 303 hp and coupled with the 4T65e-hd automatic (no manual transmission option). You can get the engine/transmission for under $2K and most of the parts for the LS4/4T65e-hd swap for under an additional 3-4K. There have been 15+ LS4/4T65e-hd swaps so far and they are the cheapest way to LS power in a Fiero. Several build threads are documented here on PFF. The more parts you buy, vs. making, the higher the cost.
The LS4/F40 has only been done a handful of times, but you can do that swap for under $10K with a few deals on parts. Here is my LS4/F40 (382 whp /335 wtq) build thread where I pioneered the swap and fully documented every part I used - is has been completed 6 years and logged over 50K miles. My LS4/F40 also has the F40 3.091 final drive swap. //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000123.html
I agree, it seems very expensive. I would like about 400hp, so I think the 6.2L would be perfect, although they are pricey unless I can find a lightly used one. I also like the F40 for beinf able to hold that amount of HP/torque, not to mention the 6 speed and final drive ratio. You swap looks fantastic, I hope to be able to do something similar and have it be very reliable.
I forgot to ask if the F40 has an LSD. Also, will I have to change the suspension to accommodate the extra weight of the new engine?
The LS/F40 swap (using an aluminum engine) will not require new suspension, but it would be a good idea to rebuild and upgrade a bit to improve handling. The new driveline is not much heavier than a stock Fiero driveline.
just wondering do you have experience in doing projects like this as they can become overwhelming with the amount of work it takes as some of the swaps take a lot of work and some start but don't finish as some swaps are hard to do and you have to take your hat off to guys like Fieroguru who have done these swaps and have had to solve many problems and have a high level of skill to pull it off
Originally posted by Chief08: I agree, it seems very expensive. I would like about 400hp, so I think the 6.2L would be perfect, although they are pricey unless I can find a lightly used one. I also like the F40 for beinf able to hold that amount of HP/torque, not to mention the 6 speed and final drive ratio. You swap looks fantastic, I hope to be able to do something similar and have it be very reliable.
quote
Originally posted by Chief08: I forgot to ask if the F40 has an LSD. Also, will I have to change the suspension to accommodate the extra weight of the new engine?
The LS4 is like the RWD L33 (aluminum 5.3L with flat top pistons and 243/799 heads), so 400 fwhp is pretty easy to get. I used factory GM parts (LS7: MAF and exhaust manifolds, LS2: TB, Intake, Injectors, fuel rail, and a DoD camshaft and got 382 whp which is about ~420 to 430 fwhp. 500 fwhp is about the upper limit on naturally aspirated power from a 5.3, but there is always nitrous, boost, and bore/stroke options to get even more.
My 88 Fiero with the LS4/F40 weighed in at 2708 lbs at the 30th. This is about the stock weight for some of the 88 Formulas and was lighter than several other "lighter" engine swaps. I could rework some mounts and brackets and shave another 100 lbs off it as well.
My rear suspension has has Koni struts, coilovers, larger sway bar, heim joint lateral links, lateral link relocation brackets, and 18x9.5 rear wheels with 285/30/18 rear RE-11 tires and a 13" brake rotor upgrade at all 4 corners. The front is equally upgraded). None of this is required for the engine install, but as you do engine swaps to increase power, I am a firm believer in doing to same to the rest of the wheels/tires, suspension, and brake systems to keep the car balanced and well rounded. It adds more cost to the overall swap (I have about $5,300 in wheels, tires, suspension and brake upgrades), but can be done in stages. I had about $1500 in upgrades as part of the original swap, the rest have been added since the car was running/driving.
The nice thing about the 5.3L engines is the power band. With the available transmissions and gear ratios, you don't need (or want) a lot of off idle torque, unless you want a burnout king. The smaller cubes with the 5.3 help in this regard, but still has too much torque to hook w/o drag radials.
From 2000 to 7000 I have over 80% of the peak torque and a 6800 rpm hp peak. So the engine feels like a DOHC engine, but has the lightness and simplicity of a pushrod engine.
The F40 is rated at 400N-M or about 295 lb-ft fwtq. Stock, the LS4 has 325 fwtq (I am around 385 fwtq) which is higher than the transmission rating, but still close enough to be durable/reliable. I have had 6+ years and 50K miles without breaking anything transmission/driveline related. Only failures during this time was buckling/breaking the shift cable (reworked the bracket and used stronger cable), snapped a belt tensioner arm (made replacement from billet), popped an AC hose.
LSDs are available for the F40, but they are about $1200+ installation. Given the transverse layout in the fiero, we don't have the issue with peg leg burnouts that most front engine RWD cars have, which lessens the need for a LSD. You are better off spending the $$$ on the final drive swap than the LSD in my opinion.
I have had a lot of engine swapped fieros, and driven several others, and the LSx/F40 is an absolute blast to drive. Once you get over the sticker shock, they are an awesome swap to drive.
just wondering do you have experience in doing projects like this as they can become overwhelming with the amount of work it takes as some of the swaps take a lot of work and some start but don't finish as some swaps are hard to do and you have to take your hat off to guys like Fieroguru who have done these swaps and have had to solve many problems and have a high level of skill to pull it off
No, I have never even changed oil before. Seriously though, I have pretty good mechanical knowledge and I think I can do this. I'm actually retired now, so I have nothing but time. I'm looking for something that doesn't require fabrication, I don't have the tools (welder etc), or know how for that. I will probably end up using the engine and transmission kits from V8 Archie for that reason.
[This message has been edited by Chief08 (edited 07-07-2019).]
The LS/F40 swap (using an aluminum engine) will not require new suspension, but it would be a good idea to rebuild and upgrade a bit to improve handling. The new driveline is not much heavier than a stock Fiero driveline.
The LS4 is like the RWD L33 (aluminum 5.3L with flat top pistons and 243/799 heads), so 400 fwhp is pretty easy to get. I used factory GM parts (LS7: MAF and exhaust manifolds, LS2: TB, Intake, Injectors, fuel rail, and a DoD camshaft and got 382 whp which is about ~420 to 430 fwhp. 500 fwhp is about the upper limit on naturally aspirated power from a 5.3, but there is always nitrous, boost, and bore/stroke options to get even more.
My 88 Fiero with the LS4/F40 weighed in at 2708 lbs at the 30th. This is about the stock weight for some of the 88 Formulas and was lighter than several other "lighter" engine swaps. I could rework some mounts and brackets and shave another 100 lbs off it as well.
My rear suspension has has Koni struts, coilovers, larger sway bar, heim joint lateral links, lateral link relocation brackets, and 18x9.5 rear wheels with 285/30/18 rear RE-11 tires and a 13" brake rotor upgrade at all 4 corners. The front is equally upgraded). None of this is required for the engine install, but as you do engine swaps to increase power, I am a firm believer in doing to same to the rest of the wheels/tires, suspension, and brake systems to keep the car balanced and well rounded. It adds more cost to the overall swap (I have about $5,300 in wheels, tires, suspension and brake upgrades), but can be done in stages. I had about $1500 in upgrades as part of the original swap, the rest have been added since the car was running/driving.
The nice thing about the 5.3L engines is the power band. With the available transmissions and gear ratios, you don't need (or want) a lot of off idle torque, unless you want a burnout king. The smaller cubes with the 5.3 help in this regard, but still has too much torque to hook w/o drag radials.
From 2000 to 7000 I have over 80% of the peak torque and a 6800 rpm hp peak. So the engine feels like a DOHC engine, but has the lightness and simplicity of a pushrod engine.
The F40 is rated at 400N-M or about 295 lb-ft fwtq. Stock, the LS4 has 325 fwtq (I am around 385 fwtq) which is higher than the transmission rating, but still close enough to be durable/reliable. I have had 6+ years and 50K miles without breaking anything transmission/driveline related. Only failures during this time was buckling/breaking the shift cable (reworked the bracket and used stronger cable), snapped a belt tensioner arm (made replacement from billet), popped an AC hose.
LSDs are available for the F40, but they are about $1200+ installation. Given the transverse layout in the fiero, we don't have the issue with peg leg burnouts that most front engine RWD cars have, which lessens the need for a LSD. You are better off spending the $$$ on the final drive swap than the LSD in my opinion.
I have had a lot of engine swapped fieros, and driven several others, and the LSx/F40 is an absolute blast to drive. Once you get over the sticker shock, they are an awesome swap to drive.
Thank you for all of the great info that you have provided thus far, I appreciate it. It sounds like you really love that 5.3L, that torque curve is impressive, so I can see why. I definitely plan to update the suspension with poly bushings, better struts etc. So, I'm assuming that I'll also need to replace the stock ecu, is there anything else I would need from the donor car assuming I don't get a crate engine?
If you go the donor car route, you will want the engine, harness, ecm, all accessories, and throttle pedal. It is afar better to get more than you need as any extra parts can sold to recoupe the purchase price also help your $$$ go further.
Just as an FYI, there are very few swaps that truly are a bolt-in process. Even with kits, there can be cutting/welding and minor fab work involved. For example the RWD LS(x)/F40 swap using the Archie kit will not fit within the stock Fiero frame rails - you have to notch the frame rails on both side. The LS4/F40 is short enough to fit within the stock frame rails since it doesn't need an adapter plate and has a more compact accessory drive. However, even it requires some notching and welding to the cradle and depending on alternator placement, it too could require a frame notch.
When you pick a path, ask for links to build threads so you can research them to learn the ins/outs of each swap.
If you go the donor car route, you will want the engine, harness, ecm, all accessories, and throttle pedal. It is afar better to get more than you need as any extra parts can sold to recoupe the purchase price also help your $$$ go further.
Just as an FYI, there are very few swaps that truly are a bolt-in process. Even with kits, there can be cutting/welding and minor fab work involved. For example the RWD LS(x)/F40 swap using the Archie kit will not fit within the stock Fiero frame rails - you have to notch the frame rails on both side. The LS4/F40 is short enough to fit within the stock frame rails since it doesn't need an adapter plate and has a more compact accessory drive. However, even it requires some notching and welding to the cradle and depending on alternator placement, it too could require a frame notch.
When you pick a path, ask for links to build threads so you can research them to learn the ins/outs of each swap.
Damn it, I may have to give this some more thought. I don't have the ability/capability to cut and weld etc.
[This message has been edited by Chief08 (edited 07-07-2019).]
I didn't mean to offend you so i am sorry if i did will say listen to what fieroguru has to say as he knows his stuff as he has solved many of the problems with his swap
I didn't mean to offend you so i am sorry if i did will say listen to what fieroguru has to say as he knows his stuff as he has solved many of the problems with his swap
Oh, I wasn't offended at all, I was being sarcastic in my reply, but it can be hard to determine tone on the internet.
Damn it, I may have to give this some more thought. I don't have the ability/capability to cut and weld etc.
You might be able to find a friend or fellow enthusiast near by to handle some of the needed work. Another PFFer just relocated to Snowflake, AZ and is working on a LS4/F23 swap and has good welding/fab skills, but he is 6 hrs from you in Yuma.
There is also the option of buying a Fiero with a completed swap or one that is nearly complete. You could put out some feelers in the mall or on one of the facebook groups.
You might be able to find a friend or fellow enthusiast near by to handle some of the needed work. Another PFFer just relocated to Snowflake, AZ and is working on a LS4/F23 swap and has good welding/fab skills, but he is 6 hrs from you in Yuma.
There is also the option of buying a Fiero with a completed swap or one that is nearly complete. You could put out some feelers in the mall or on one of the facebook groups.
Thanks for the advice. Failing that, I may have look into the 3.4L swap since it requires the least amount of Fab work. However, I'm sure it worth the/expense for the minimal gains.
i would not do the 3.4 pushrod i would do the 3.4 dohc i had one with the 4 speed with the 4:10 gear and it was a good going car and sounded good and use the 96 and up they are pretty easy install as most 2.8 mounts work
i would not do the 3.4 pushrod i would do the 3.4 dohc i had one with the 4 speed with the 4:10 gear and it was a good going car and sounded good and use the 96 and up they are pretty easy install as most 2.8 mounts work
What vehicles do those come out of? Also, what's the HP/TQ rating on those?
Monte Carlo and Lumina z34 they were 210 hp and about the same on the torque but with some tuning and cam timing adjustment guys have boosted that up to about 220 whp if i was to do it again i would use the F40 trans with the 3:71 final drive ratio as it has a bit lower ratio gears also and that would help the engine out
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 07-07-2019).]
Monte Carlo and Lumina z34 they were 210 hp and about the same on the torque but with some tuning and cam timing adjustment guys have boosted that up to about 220 whp if i was to do it again i would use the F40 trans with the 3:71 final drive ratio as it has a bit lower ratio gears also and that would help the engine out
yes a even better choice is the cobalt f35 MU3 it has a 4:05 final drive ratio
I dont think I want anything higher than 3.73, I want to be able cruise down the highway at lower RPMs. Ive have plenty of Hondas and they are at like 4, or 5K at 70 MPH..
Originally posted by Chief08: Is the LFX 3.6L V6 in the Camaro/Cadillac a viable swap option. Will it bolt up to an F40, or F35?
The 3.6 is part of the GM High Feature V6 lineup. The Saab Turbo 2.8 is part of that engine family and comes factory with an F40, so there is a version of the F40 with the proper bellhousing. Just remember the F40 is available with about 4+ different bellhousings (Metric, Ecotec, High Feature, Opel Diesel) so it will be important to source the right one.
There has been 1 completed Saab 2.8 swap. There were several issues with the Saab ecm at the time, but he finally found a work around. //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/091238.html
This is likely the most wished swap currently... but so far there is only 1 High Feature V6 swap completed and it didn't use the factory GM ECM. The second one is getting close, but it will be the 2nd. The 3.6L swap is far from fully documented and no kit exists, which makes it very, very challenging.