I decided to replace my (slow) working starter with a better one. My biggest reason to do this was because how long it took to start the car. Many times I had to do it twice. The motor is a fresh rebuilt 2.8 that is modified some.
I used a TYC 106472 from RockAuto. This is for a 3800SC Regal 97-2004 or Grand Prix 97-2007. There are other applications that it will fit but you get the idea. This particular model is 1.6KW. The difference between the old and new starters is amazing. The new starter will start the car is about a second.This is very much worth doing for anyone I believe. I did have to trim the metal shielding some that goes around the starter. No big deal. This model was only $69 with no core charge. Also should add I didn't use and shims.
Picture to show the difference:
[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 04-09-2019).]
I want one of the later model light-weight starters- they save approx' 10 lbs........From a 3.5 or 3.9........But my starter is original....34 years and approx' 200,000 miles....Maybe it needs a rest.......
I was less concerned about the weight as I was more concerned about fixing the slow start. It is lighter because it was easier to hold it with one hand while installing it but I couldn't not tell you how much lighter. Being smaller does make it easier to work with.
Gear reduction starters offer amazing torque for the quicker starts, and oftentimes, better exhaust clearance to reduce hot starting issues.
The tradeoff? Plastic planetary gears. They blow up at the first sign of trouble.
I stick with the design because it is so easy to install, but have rebuilt a bunch for the weakness in plastic. A quality rebuilt OE wins in this category.
TYC claim they have a warranty but Most part makers don't dealing w/ individuals so getting RA and other online dealers to honor it can be hard. Plus you have to paid for ship it to them, sometimes ship back to you too, and wait for shipping both ways and often days to process on their end. This is why I go to AZ that test and when fails get new right then or next day if out of stock in my local store.
Typical ways out for Warranty not only to TYC...
quote
TYC Corporation warrants its products to be free from defects in material and workmanship for as long as they remain installed on the vehicle for which they were originally purchased. Any TYC product found to be defective shall be repaired or replaced.
This warranty is non-transferable and will be voided under any of the following conditions:
Use in commercial or fleet, governmental, off-road, or racing applications.
Failure due to natural/environmental forces; either external or internal erosion, including effects of salt-air corrosion and electrolysis from internal cooling system fluids.
If TYC determines alteration, improper use, incorrect installation, or negligence.
A faulty vehicle engine temperature warning system.
Improper installation, which caused the damage to connection threads.
Removal of any stamp, label, or manufacturer’s identification.
This warranty applies only to those products that have been installed in accordance with accepted industry standards by a certified technician.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I find it odd that the NA 3800 starters show 1.5 kw power and the SC version shows as much as 1.7 kw. I was under the impression that the SC engine has a "lower compression ratio" than the NA, hence "less kw power" would be needed for cranking. Can't just be for the SC since it can be turned freely by hand. Am I missing something?
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
I did this mod, for weight reasons. Here are my old notes:
Stock starter: 14 lbs Reduction Starter: 8 lbs
I measured that both the stock starter and reduction starter turned over my 2.8 at 180 to 190 RPM; no difference in cranking speed.
Jason, if you noticed a difference, maybe your stock starter was already on its last legs. Or maybe my reduction unit sucked?
Patrick, I can guarantee my stock unit was probably close to the end of its life for sure. There is a huge difference in the starting power of the two for sure.
Spoon, when I was shopping the different starters I just took the middle ground at picked out the best price 1.6KW. Which is how I ended up getting the TYC unit. RockAuto has a lot of options, albeit some of them did not show the KW power so I didn't pay them any attention.
Originally posted by pmbrunelle: I did this mod, for weight reasons. Here are my old notes:
Stock starter: 14 lbs Reduction Starter: 8 lbs
I measured that both the stock starter and reduction starter turned over my 2.8 at 180 to 190 RPM; no difference in cranking speed.
Jason, if you noticed a difference, maybe your stock starter was already on its last legs. Or maybe my reduction unit sucked?
Old starter, old solenoid and/or old battery cables can cause "the slows" just from "wearing out" but Just 1 iffy cable connection or starter mounting hardware can do same. So as a review, this is useless like many other "Upgrades."
Many new straight starters are lighter then all 30+ year old factory starter not just GM even tho same overall dimensions. Like Many companies have better methods of winding and insulating a coil to give same or more power. Many tweak core material too so may look same to you but isn't. That and others can save some weight.
Few pounds lighter anywhere on the motor won't matter. Not for HP or MPG unless maybe you average years of driving. Worse many people put more weight elsewhere and often Does matter like "brake upgrades" that adds Unsprung weight to the suspension and/or overloaded the car w/ heavy people or junk everywhere. Junk in the Trunk is a big issue for Fiero because all trunk weight is Behind the Rear Axle. 100# or more there can effectively lighten the front axle making big handling problems. Many have 100+ in the trunk then add 100+ tongue weight trailer too and wonder why car handles like crap and HL are "Dim." Hell... Many install heavy engine and trans have legally overloaded the car just w/ a small driver and nothing else but Cops don't weigh most cars. (Cops only go by what data is publish and posted in the vehicle as GVWR by the factory. Many pickup trunk owners get stopped from crap in the bed and/or towing too much weight. Aftermarket suspension and other parts to load up more does not matter either. May make more problems causing higher fines or worse when wrecked.)
Ogre, for me the only thing that changed was the starter. My front mount battery and cables where reused. Bolted everything the same to the new starter.
[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 04-10-2019).]
I did this upgrade myself several years ago and the difference in startup is amazing. The starter is still working well, knock on wood. No shims were needed and the install was super easy as the starter is so much smaller than the old one.
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Originally posted by Spadesluck: Ogre, for me the only thing that changed was the starter. My front mount battery and cables where reused. Bolted everything the same to the new starter.
Should have posted this in first post. Few know or follow every user and mod done.
Side Note: FM battery can have problem even if part are new so data doesn't help a whole lot because Long lines etc can have more voltage drop vs OE setup and any new starter may hide this. Low volts can wreck any motor over short or long haul depending just how bad the problem is. See my Cave, Electric Motors
General I like using a better starter but many New gear head starters have weak gears as said by viperine. Big problem is no-one will tell you is use plastic gears or not before you buy.
Regardless of whether it has any other advantages, the modern gear reduction starter swap is kind of appealing just because it's a bit lighter and smaller. But I'm mildly hung up on the silly aesthetic side of it. I've had the old starter sound for so long that the sound of a modern starter on this car would be weird to me, like I'm starting a 2003 Civic or something. I admit it's kind of silly to care though. Anyway, my original starter still works fine, and I have a backup from my old car that also works, so I'll probably never end up needing to buy one.
I remember heat soak problems being often discussed on the old Fiero newsgroup ~1999-2000, where people talked about shielding it with tin cans or something. Starter heat soak has also come up on this forum a fair bit, but in all that time I've still never experienced it. I guess I've been lucky, but the OE starters have been ultra reliable for me.
Originally posted by armos: I remember heat soak problems being often discussed on the old Fiero newsgroup ~1999-2000, where people talked about shielding it with tin cans or something. Starter heat soak has also come up on this forum a fair bit, but in all that time I've still never experienced it. I guess I've been lucky, but the OE starters have been ultra reliable for me.
Heat soak problems are not just problems w/ Fiero. Any vehicle of any brand can have this problem. Most Fiero have heat shield(s) on the exhaust but rusted out and shield fell off. Example: Many l4 had 1 on the down pipe to the cat to prevent heating the solenoid. 84-86 w/ Thermac stove on the E manifold to heat air to TBI helps shield the starter too. Some had them on the starter and same happened. For most replacing missing shield is easier to shield starter from exhaust put leave space so engine heat get out and doesn't heat the starter assem.
Heat, mostly from exhaust parts, get to the Motor, Solenoid, or Both. Heat causes high resistance in coil windings and/or changes clearance for things like the solenoid "piston" and won't move when hot. Heat is in 2 form here... Heat air then heat whatever. Driving will "upset" this as air moves and have cooler air flowing over parts. Or have fans/blower like V6 engine blower. IR heating and not affected by driving unless you have cool air moving to fight this. Blocking/reflecting IR heating is the main job for simple metal heat shield. Metal w/ small air gap will make a big difference in temperature of part(s) to protect.
l4 Fiero used a bigger "pebble bed" cat but V6 w/ small cat still heats everything over it after shutdown and can heat soak the starter too. Worse when you have problems making the cat overheat from running too rich/lean, burning oil or coolant, too much Zinc (often as "ZZP") in the oil or gas, etc.
I had this happen to last starter when I had to make quick visits to stores and starter didn't have time to cool, got heat soak from the cat, or likely both. Finally happen last time and won't start until completely cooled off after 1+ hr. Now have a shield make of roof flashing aluminum on the starter and have no problem in 5+ years. Is just wrapped over the solenoid then held by starter shim and 1 bolt holding dirt shield on bottom of AT bell housing.
Originally posted by pmbrunelle: I did this mod, for weight reasons. Here are my old notes:
Stock starter: 14 lbs Reduction Starter: 8 lbs
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
Many new straight starters are lighter then all 30+ year old factory starter not just GM even tho same overall dimensions.... That and others can save some weight.
Few pounds lighter anywhere on the motor won't matter.... Junk in the Trunk is a big issue for Fiero because all trunk weight is Behind the Rear Axle. 100# or more there can effectively lighten the front axle making big handling problems. Hell... Many install heavy engine and trans have legally overloaded the car just w/ a small driver ....
Ogre: you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First you say that some starters can save you some weight, then you say that a few pounds on the motor won't matter, then you say that trunk weight affects the handling, then you say that some people install heavy engine and trans and are overloaded.
So which is it? Should we save weight on the starter or not?
Lighter weight will not only affect acceleration but handling as well. Especially weight in the rear of the car. People like me that enjoy a balanced car that comes in and out of a four wheel drift in a predictable and controlled manner understand that weight in the rear adds to oversteer problems. i have taken the battery out of the rear and put it under the passenger headlight. i have a three cored radiator and i removed the compressor for the AC. All of these mods have made my car perform better in a corner. Some of them have also made it perform better at speed on the highway (especially the radiator vent mod, as is well documented on this forum). Even moving the battery from the spare tire position to under the passenger headlight has made a noticeable difference.
There are a billion words spilled on this forum about horsepower, but precious few written about weight saving. Then when someone wants to save weight, they get criticized. Give me a break
I don't think our friend the ogre is 'talking out of both sides of his mouth'.
I would suggest that he is simply pointing out various facts to help people decide how various modifications may affect their car's performance, handling and safety.
