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Cadillac 4.5 supercharged engine by Johns 4.9
Started on: 04-04-2019 04:10 PM
Replies: 33 (890 views)
Last post by: Johns 4.9 on 04-18-2019 02:58 PM
Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-04-2019 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have this engine in my 84. Looking forward to testing this summer. Going to find out how strong these motors are....or are not. Should be fun.
Cheers
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olejoedad
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Report this Post04-04-2019 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do you have enough belt wrap on the balancer, alternator and supercharger pulleys?
The supercharger install looks good!
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Darrelk
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Report this Post04-04-2019 05:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DarrelkClick Here to visit Darrelk's HomePageSend a Private Message to DarrelkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, that looks really clean.....So what tranny are you hooking that obvious torque monster to????? I am assuming an automatic but I'm sure there are plenty of manuals that would be fun to blow up...... I had just put a supercharger on a rear rotary set-up (you know, they don't make much torque right?) to a heavily modified VW tranny with all the best of the best in it. First good launch..... tranny held fine but smoked the clutch, twisted an axle and broke 2 HD race prepped CV joints. Superchargers just change everything.......
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Report this Post04-04-2019 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I assume your alternator is the tension adjustment, so that bracket might need reworking, but this would be a much better belt path for this setup. Even then, I would make sure the idler pulley isn't just bolted to the aluminum bracket off the backside of the water pump as the torque needed to pull the supercharger load would likely snap it off.

It is good to see people doing different stuff!

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Report this Post04-05-2019 12:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree with the above. You need as much wrap as possible around the crankshaft, blower, and alternator pulleys.
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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-05-2019 01:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Never had any belt slip. Supercharger has more wrap then the set up it uses for the SBC. Idler pulley isn't bolted to the water pump. Goes through and bolts to a bracket that is bolted to the head. If I have any slip at the track I'll let you know.

Car is a 84 Fiero. Transmission is a rebuilt 4T60 with shift kit and 2800 stall converter with 3.73 gears.

[This message has been edited by Johns 4.9 (edited 04-05-2019).]

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-05-2019 02:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
fieroguru,
After looking at that idler bracket again, I agree with you about it being too weak. I think a steal bracket is a much better idea, good call. I think I will fab one up before I hit the track. As far as the belt path, looks good but it would hit the front of the water pump housing. Yeah, I tried at least a dozen variety of paths and brackets and the front of the water pump housing always gets in the way! Very frustrating. So I agree its not ideal but it is with in the physical limitations of the water pump housing. So as "much wrap as possible" is limited by the configuration of the water pump housing in this situation. There is still a lot of trial and error with this set-up. If it becomes a problem I will address it them. Thanks, man!
Cheers

[This message has been edited by Johns 4.9 (edited 04-05-2019).]

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Spadesluck
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Report this Post04-05-2019 03:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Subscribed...

Got a picture of the trunk closed? Curious how far out that thing sticks.
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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-05-2019 04:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not too far.

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engine man
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Report this Post04-05-2019 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I love it way to go outside the box it looks nice and clean not all cluttered again nice job
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post04-05-2019 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
While the 4.9L has been boosted and has performed well (12 sec 1/4 mile times) ; I don't believe that its the best engine for adding boost. The cylinder sleeves are held in place only by the heads. Adding boost puts even more stress on this design anomaly. I cannot say that supercharging won't work as you are using a smaller blower ; I'd just be concerned with the long term reliability. This is of course is just a opinion and the long term result may prove me wrong. Very nice job on the installation.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post04-05-2019 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice work. Looks as if you are expecting a fun filled season of racing.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-05-2019 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would not be concerned about the sleeves as diesel engines have sleeves that are held down in place by the heads
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post04-05-2019 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

I would not be concerned about the sleeves as diesel engines have sleeves that are held down in place by the heads


My comments are based on actual case histories of those that modified this engine. Many of them were reported here. One guy on this forum guy used a 75 hp shot of nitrous and ended up with water in the oil. It may be that a stronger copper head gasket was needed. Again I cannot say that boosting will not work but it may depend on how much boost is applied and how hard the engine is pushed. I guess that we will see, but my opinion is that this engine isn't the best platform to modify for more power. .

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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engine man
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Report this Post04-05-2019 04:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i just look at it different and i see that as a fastener problem of not clamping the head down tight enough as the fasteners are not strong enough or not enough head bolts but these engine use a wet sleeve design like a diesel from what i remember but no matter what every engine has its limits on what they can and can not take
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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-05-2019 04:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am going to have to agree with "engine man" in this case. I am more concern with head bolts and head gaskets then I am with the sleeves causing a problem. But failure is part of the process and I am expecting some type of failure so I cam build the next motor stronger.
I just rebuilt his motor. Its a 89 4.5 short block with 92 4.9 heads. This yields 8 to 1 compression. The 4.9 heads have the bigger valves and ports.

[This message has been edited by Johns 4.9 (edited 04-05-2019).]

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engine man
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Report this Post04-05-2019 06:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
how much boost are you shooting for as i would think 6 to 8 pounds would be about max with stock pistons as i think those are just cast pistons and not hypereutectic pistons
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fieroguru
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Report this Post04-05-2019 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Johns 4.9:

fieroguru,
After looking at that idler bracket again, I agree with you about it being too weak. I think a steal bracket is a much better idea, good call. I think I will fab one up before I hit the track. As far as the belt path, looks good but it would hit the front of the water pump housing. Yeah, I tried at least a dozen variety of paths and brackets and the front of the water pump housing always gets in the way! Very frustrating. So I agree its not ideal but it is with in the physical limitations of the water pump housing. So as "much wrap as possible" is limited by the configuration of the water pump housing in this situation. There is still a lot of trial and error with this set-up. If it becomes a problem I will address it them. Thanks, man!
Cheers



I broke one in a N/A application, which is why it is suspect for booster application. On one swap I made a new steel bracket, on another one I reinforced the back side as part of my alternator bracket.




Here is another belt path that might work. It takes a little trimming around the timing tab and scope tube, but I used a similar belt path on another 4.9 swap:


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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-05-2019 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Engineman,
Yeah, 8 lbs is what it set up to run. I already have a new set of hypereutectic pistons for the next engine. I don't think nitros is a good idea with cast pistons for this engine.
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engine man
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Report this Post04-05-2019 06:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
cool keep us all updated as this looks like is gonna be a super fun project i think
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Shho13
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Report this Post04-06-2019 01:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shho13Click Here to Email Shho13Send a Private Message to Shho13Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
LOVE the headers!

------------------
"Discord"
Red 1988 GT under restoration!

Let's Go Mets!

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-06-2019 03:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Shho13,
Thanks for the compliment on the headers.
Cheers
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Darrelk
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Report this Post04-06-2019 08:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DarrelkClick Here to visit Darrelk's HomePageSend a Private Message to DarrelkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good tranny combo for that motor. I could see fabbing a fiberglass breather box for that decklid......
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Raydar
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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-08-2019 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am working on a stud kit for my next boosted 4.5/4.9 engine.



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Spadesluck
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Report this Post04-09-2019 12:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have always thought about making my own stud kit. Did you buy a particular package?
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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-09-2019 01:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No, no particular package. I based my measurements on the depth of the bolt holes in the block and the length of the bolts. Then I figured out what size stud would work. Steel is grade 10.9 or stronger. I need the main cap stud kit for the stud girdle that is going in with this engine.
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V8 Formula
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Report this Post04-10-2019 08:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for V8 FormulaSend a Private Message to V8 FormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It is TOO d@mn early in the morning for Fiero p0rn.

Nice job! Beautiful!

[This message has been edited by V8 Formula (edited 04-10-2019).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post04-11-2019 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Johns 4.9:

No, no particular package. I based my measurements on the depth of the bolt holes in the block and the length of the bolts. Then I figured out what size stud would work. Steel is grade 10.9 or stronger. I need the main cap stud kit for the stud girdle that is going in with this engine.

Got to give you credit for addressing the possible head sealing issues with studs. I am inclined to believe that it will work. As for the main caps I believe that you should be OK with those stock. There was a guy on this forum (PBJ -IIRC) that turbocharged an EFI 4.9L and ran mid 12's in the 1/4 mile. The crank held. This seemed to prove that boosting helped overcome the restrictive ports in the head that gives the horsepower curve a low redline. Since it looks like you are going with an old school distributor and carb; IMO the biggest challenge might be the tuning. In the early days I've handled timing on a supercharged V8 by restricting the total advance by limiting the travel of the weights. This does little to tailor the timing curve to all running conditions. It can limit the total advance which is probably OK for the strip.
I'd give some thought to EFI.
You've done some really fine work on your engine and showed some real skills. Many of us will be following this post with enthusiasm. Hope that it meets your expectation.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Report this Post04-11-2019 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by V8 Formula: It is TOO d@mn early in the morning for Fiero p0rn.

It is NEVER too early for engine pr0n.
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La fiera
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Report this Post04-11-2019 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

It is good to see people doing different stuff!



I agree!

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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-11-2019 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dennis,
Thank you for the kind words about my build. The reason I am installing main cap studs is so I can add a stud girdle. This is the AutoCAD drawing of it. Just need to get it cut out now.
I have given a lot of thought about the timing. I have a vacuum advance set up on the distributor that retards the timing under wide open throttle and full boost. Detonation can be a big problem for cast pistons! Still working out the final details on that but the vacuum canister is adjustable.


As far as the belt wrap goes, it hits the water pump! I appreciate the enthusiasm but there is only one way the belt can go up to the supercharger. On the left hand side of the pump. Its hard to tell from the pics. Like I said I tried over a dozen ways and this way is a compromise for all the variables. Not ideal but still no belt slip. Thank you for your efforts!

[This message has been edited by Johns 4.9 (edited 04-11-2019).]

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Will
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Report this Post04-12-2019 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Johns 4.9:

I have this engine in my 84. Looking forward to testing this summer. Going to find out how strong these motors are....or are not. Should be fun.
Cheers


Well... you could mount something like these:

https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/11282248214

OR

https://www.carid.com/2001-...embly-596191986.html

To that bolt just above your steel waterpump cover and just outside the belt (Your pic doesn't show at work, I'll make one calling out the bolt when I get home).
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Johns 4.9
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Report this Post04-18-2019 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Johns 4.9Click Here to visit Johns 4.9's HomePageClick Here to Email Johns 4.9Send a Private Message to Johns 4.9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


ARP connecting rod bolts to replace the stock ones.

[This message has been edited by Johns 4.9 (edited 04-18-2019).]

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