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Ghost Mods that are Smog Friendly by Notorio
Started on: 12-22-2018 01:21 PM
Replies: 110 (1914 views)
Last post by: thesameguy on 01-25-2019 10:55 AM
thesameguy
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Report this Post01-16-2019 01:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Indeed. That was my first post on Page 2. People definitely must have missed it, because we've been talking about things that "might be" when there is demonstrable proof "they are."

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-16-2019).]

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Report this Post01-16-2019 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I first heard of the EO process many years ago, the lab had your car for as long as they felt the need. They tested to car in below zero temps and above 100. There was no guarantee to get your car back in usable condition. The lab absolutely tests the car. This process is exhaustive and immensely more detailed than a typical engine swap certification.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-16-2019).]

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Report this Post01-16-2019 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Rickady88GT

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The biggest problem with the EO is that you need a new EO certification for each different engine type. So for example you want to EO a 3800, because there could be a strong market for it. That 3800 was made for so long that significant changes were made and the EO won't cover them all. It will only cover the exact type and optioned 3800 as was EO certified. It is very narrow in definition.
I also have doubt that a transverse 3800 can be EO certified with a manual. There has to be a reason GM never offered it, outside of "lack of interest from the market" and the lack of a strong and reliable transmission for it.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-16-2019).]

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Report this Post01-16-2019 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm not sure where you heard that, but that seems implausible. The lab doing the tests is a private facility. Their relationship is with you, not the government. You pay them to perform a test and they provide you the results. I have used labs to test a variety of things - until recently I worked for a law firm and we've had labs test everything from power steering pumps to ESP systems and I never got broken stuff back.

The tests they use are well documented - they are standardized industrial tests. The Vanagon was subjected to CVS-75 9 (detailed in the EO), which is well documented. CVS-75 is based on the UDDS (urban dyno driving schedule), which is a series of accelerations and decelerations between 0 and 60mph over ten minutes. CVS-75 is a cold start (vehicle at rest for 12-36 hours), UDDS, then a hot start (9-11 minutes after completion of the cold test), and another UDDS. The entire test should take about a half hour. Here is the exact UDDS schedule:

https://www.law.cornell.edu...ppendix-I_to_part_86

The whole thing is basically a smog test on steroids - controlled air, captured exhaust, extended driving cycles. There is no reason that should break a car or take forever. The guy who EO'd his Vanagon said they had it for a week. Again, it's a private lab with work to do. They don't want to store (or break) your car any more than your mechanic does.

You *would* need an EO for each specific 3800 variant. The 1.8t was sold in six or eight variants over the years but this EO applies to the last variant sold between '02 and '06. But, again, the point here wouldn't be to make an infinitely customizable solution. The point would be to offer a defined upgrade path to California (and New York) Fiero owners who want more than the 2.8 has to offer, are tired of smog hassles with a 30 year old motor, or have a broken motor that is increasingly difficult to fix. For people who just want a "more fun Fiero," they don't need every 3800 variant or every engine variant. They need one modern-ish motor that helps an '80s car feel more refined and more at home in traffic. I'm certain that could be an Ecotec, a high value, a high feature, a 3800, an LS, or just about anything else. *Anything* made in the last 20 years would be an improvement. But I for one have zero interest in a 3800 no matter how easy it is. I don't want to replace my 30 year old motor with a 20 year old motor. If I'm going to the trouble, I want something that's been in production recently, and hopefully still is!
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Report this Post01-16-2019 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:
... to instead further discuss EO-friendly Swaps for CA and NY, I would suggest that there are perhaps TWO types of customers in the Fiero Owner pool, namely, those that would like an EO that is:

1) A V6 that pretty-much bolts in and works with an existing trans but sports let's say 240+ HP, and is Cheap (with the engine being readily available)
2) A V8 that is set up for major HP (350+) and a much better trans

... what are the Best Candidates for Path 1 and for Path 2? ...


Taking into account the data showing that USED engines are OK, can we discuss this 2-path plan for starters? I can understand that older-for-old might not be the most attractive option. I am especially interested for myself the 'cheap' Option 1, a bolt-in V6 that works with my 5-spd. Again, this would be readily available.

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Report this Post01-16-2019 04:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:


Taking into account the data showing that USED engines are OK, can we discuss this 2-path plan for starters? I can understand that older-for-old might not be the most attractive option. I am especially interested for myself the 'cheap' Option 1, a bolt-in V6 that works with my 5-spd. Again, this would be readily available.


Hmmm... I question whether there are enough people to make a 1-path plan work. I'd hesitate to even consider a second one. I think the only real option is to find a 250-300hp "one size fits many" approach and circle back in 10 years.
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Report this Post01-16-2019 05:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The best possible engine for the Fiero would be the 3900 LZ9 that was offered in the Pontiac G6 with a manual transmission....It is slightly lighter, will obviously fit and has 240 HP and 240 Lb/Ft of torque...The Fiero's performance with this engine would be around 5 sec 0-60 and 13.5 sec 1/4 mile...It is already "certified" with a manual but is acceptable for automatics also....there are tons of these out there in the JYs.

The biggest hurdle is getting the engine computer to run without the BCM and any other Electronic crap.
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Report this Post01-16-2019 05:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

The best possible engine for the Fiero would be the 3900 LZ9 that was offered in the Pontiac G6 with a manual transmission....It is slightly lighter, will obviously fit and has 240 HP and 240 Lb/Ft of torque...The Fiero's performance with this engine would be around 5 sec 0-60 and 13.5 sec 1/4 mile...It is already "certified" with a manual but is acceptable for automatics also....there are tons of these out there in the JYs.

The biggest hurdle is getting the engine computer to run without the BCM and any other Electronic crap.


I dunno about "best" at only 240hp , but I strongly agree with your arguments - lighter, more powerful, an known-working with an F40. The roadblocks I've read include the BCM and getting VVT working, but I don't know if that's current information.

Another approach I've strongly entertained is the LP9. After bmwguru's success with that install I looked a little deeper into it. It's also known-working with the F40, and brings more power to the equation. I've already talked with two tuners who say divorcing the Bosch ME9 ECM from the rest of the electronics is not a problem, so then your major drawback is going to be packaging the intercooler. There's also the later ECMs used with the LAU, but I don't know anything about them.

In either case, I think the magic element is "known working with a manual transmission," which means you are just searching for a donor car and not trying to piece together a million fiddly bits as you are when putting an F35/F40/whatever on an LS, etc. Unfortunately GM's selection of fun FWD motors is pretty limited.

Edit: There is always the LNF and its derivatives, but I'm personally a little afraid of getting into DI. That could just be my lack of information, but every time I look at "DI engine swaps" anywhere, there's a lot of hesitation. Going Saab B207R could be an option too, using other Ecotec bits, but I'm not sure if that's a real value versus the LP9/B284. And the upside of B284 means you're putting work into the High Feature platform, which means someday that LFX/LF3 swap could be a thing. Maybe.

Edit 2: Maybe worth noting, but that EO for that 1.8t swap specifically notes and allows for trouble codes being set for a missing BCM, instrument cluster, and something else (I don't recall offhand). I don't know what happens to the LZ9 when it's missing its other modules -- whether it goes into limp home or just runs with error codes - but potentially "missing BCM error" isn't a road block in EO'ing a swap. They aren't looking for those details - they're looking to be sure the emissions stuff works right. That is very different from the referee experience, which relies on "it's set up like the manufacturer" in order to get a pass. That is, the EO approach uses new empirical data to pass or fail, the ref approach simply ensures the new implementation is the same as the old, and assumes if it is the same no new test data is needed. So, there is another potential advantage there.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-16-2019).]

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Report this Post01-16-2019 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't think yhat you are limited to GM products. The Nissan Maxima has a sold V6 with an optional 6 speed manual. With all of the changes in electronics and mechanicals between the years, there are practically no bolt in GM engines anyways
This is the same V6 that was used in the Z. They can make close to 300hp.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-16-2019).]

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Report this Post01-17-2019 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Definitely - no need to stick with GM products. As long as it's a light duty motor it should be doable.
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Report this Post01-17-2019 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

The biggest hurdle is getting the engine computer to run without the BCM and any other Electronic crap.


The BIGGEST hurdle is going to be getting catalysts that work with the Fiero's exhaust packaging. See below regarding BCM.

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

I dunno about "best" at only 240hp , but I strongly agree with your arguments - lighter, more powerful, an known-working with an F40. The roadblocks I've read include the BCM and getting VVT working, but I don't know if that's current information.



My inference is that the ECM code load is part of the EO. For example, if you took the 3900 and dropped in a big honking cam, then tuned up the ECM such that it passed the dyno emissions test, then you'd get an EO for that engine with that cam and that tune. It all becomes part of the certified configuration as long as it passes.
So if the OE ECM load requires a BCM... switch that functionality off.

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

Edit 2: Maybe worth noting, but that EO for that 1.8t swap specifically notes and allows for trouble codes being set for a missing BCM, instrument cluster, and something else (I don't recall offhand). I don't know what happens to the LZ9 when it's missing its other modules -- whether it goes into limp home or just runs with error codes - but potentially "missing BCM error" isn't a road block in EO'ing a swap. They aren't looking for those details - they're looking to be sure the emissions stuff works right.



I suspect they did it this way because aftermarket tuning for the Audi computer is rare and expensive. Tuning for GM computers is common and cheap, which should certainly weigh heavily on decisions regarding which powertrain to go with.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-17-2019).]

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Report this Post01-17-2019 01:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
My inference is that the ECM code load is part of the EO. For example, if you took the 3900 and dropped in a big honking cam, then tuned up the ECM such that it passed the dyno emissions test, then you'd get an EO for that engine with that cam and that tune. It all becomes part of the certified configuration as long as it passes.
So if the OE ECM load requires a BCM... switch that functionality off.


I don't know this, but that's what I believe as well. The EO specifically calls out "stock ECM, stock software" but there is no reason it couldn't call out "stock ECM, modified software" or "Megasquirt" - if you could get it to pass the test.

 
quote
I suspect they did it this way because aftermarket tuning for the Audi computer is rare and expensive. Tuning for GM computers is common and cheap, which should certainly weigh heavily on decisions regarding which powertrain to go with.


Tuning for Audis is very available - there are lots of excellent tuners in the US and abroad, and the software is well-understood and pretty hackable with inexpensive tools. This is what gives me pause about modified software. It's totally possible that these guys were mechanics and not tuners and simply lacked the skills to do the mods, or it's possible they didn't want to create roadblocks for people sourcing their own donors, or it's possible they thought it best not to mess with software and raise eyebrows. Lot of variables for sure! But definitely *not* a technical limitation. It's doable - the software on my Audi let me change tunes (valet/stock/100 octane) using the cruise control buttons and the in-dash display.

 
quote
The BIGGEST hurdle is going to be getting catalysts that work with the Fiero's exhaust packaging.


Oh yeah... I forgot about that. VVT, BCM, cat. I wonder how the High Feature compares. I still do love the idea of a small twin cam V6 back there.
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Report this Post01-17-2019 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I readily admit that I don't understand all the details and points you guys are bringing up. One thing seems clear to me: no one is supporting the idea of the 'cheap swap' EO that would keep our original transmissions. I didn't want to add the significant expense of going to the 6spd F40, for example.
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Report this Post01-18-2019 02:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am sure someone will correct me, but my recollection is that there are no recent motors that will bolt up to the stock 282. You need to go way back in time to get a motor that will just bolt up. Well, that's probably not a fair thing to say - but just bolt up without mixing & matching clutch parts or modifying hydraulics. From the point of a frustration-free (HA!) swap, I think your best money is finding a G6 GTP or a 9-3 Aero and buying a full dropout with engine/trans/electronics all together. That way you have everything you need, and you're not scouring PFF trying to figure out what pressure plate so and so used to make his LX9 work right with his 282.

I definitely understand wanting to shave costs wherever possible, but trading a known-good OE combo for something that must be customized is probably just trading short term savings for long term spending. Plus, if you're gonna replace old stuff with new stuff, might as well replace all the old stuff. Just my $0.02.
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Report this Post01-21-2019 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 3800 & 3900 could work with the original Fiero transmissions. Top gear in a 282 is not even that different than top gear in the MU9 F40 with 3.55 final.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-21-2019).]

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Report this Post01-22-2019 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Man, a 3800 isn't recent! They have been dead over a decade!

Are there any special requirements to put the 282 on the high value? What clutch/PP would one use?
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Report this Post01-22-2019 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

Man, a 3800 isn't recent! They have been dead over a decade!

Are there any special requirements to put the 282 on the high value? What clutch/PP would one use?



Hasn't a 3900 been dead close to 10 years?

There are clutches on the market that will do it, but they wouldn't be part of the EO because they don't affect emissions.

With the right (custom fabbed) brackets, a Quad4 282 will bolt up to a High Feature V6 because the dowels are in the same place.


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Report this Post01-23-2019 10:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey, they made the 3900 into this decade - that's in the pocket... new enough to be under 100k, old enough to be in junkyards.

I thought there was a catch with the high value… it doesn't bolt up to the Fiero's Getrag. If you've gotta go to the trouble of finding a Quad4 282 to mate it to the high value, you might as well use the F-series transmission that came on the high value in the first place. I think Notorio was looking for a way to do an engine-only swap, keeping his stock trans - and that only happens if you use a really old motor. Might as well bite the bullet and use an F40 - that lets you use most every recent GM motor.
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Report this Post01-23-2019 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
I thought there was a catch with the high value… it doesn't bolt up to the Fiero's Getrag. If you've gotta go to the trouble of finding a Quad4 282 to mate it to the high value, you might as well use the F-series transmission that came on the high value in the first place. I think Notorio was looking for a way to do an engine-only swap, keeping his stock trans - and that only happens if you use a really old motor. Might as well bite the bullet and use an F40 - that lets you use most every recent GM motor.


Yep, my goal was to keep the original trans in 'Path A' to keep the cost as low as possible. But I see the point you guys are making ... it makes more sense to use the intended modern trans.
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Report this Post01-23-2019 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

Hey, they made the 3900 into this decade - that's in the pocket... new enough to be under 100k, old enough to be in junkyards.

I thought there was a catch with the high value… it doesn't bolt up to the Fiero's Getrag. If you've gotta go to the trouble of finding a Quad4 282 to mate it to the high value, you might as well use the F-series transmission that came on the high value in the first place. I think Notorio was looking for a way to do an engine-only swap, keeping his stock trans - and that only happens if you use a really old motor. Might as well bite the bullet and use an F40 - that lets you use most every recent GM motor.


3900 and LZ4 3500 are the High Value engines. They descend from the Fiero 2.8. The 3.6, 3.0, 2.8(T) are the High Feature engines.
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Report this Post01-23-2019 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

3900 and LZ4 3500 are the High Value engines. They descend from the Fiero 2.8. The 3.6, 3.0, 2.8(T) are the High Feature engines.


I'm not sure what this is in response to, but yes, I understand that. OHV vs OHC engines.
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Report this Post01-24-2019 03:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

I'm not sure what this is in response to, but yes, I understand that. OHV vs OHC engines.


You have something confused, because this statement is wrong:

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

I thought there was a catch with the high value… it doesn't bolt up to the Fiero's Getrag.
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Report this Post01-24-2019 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ZCR1Send a Private Message to ZCR1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you save your pennies, you could just throw one of these in and do eng/trans swaps as your heart desires.

https://www.haltech.com/pro.../universal-ecu-kits/

[This message has been edited by ZCR1 (edited 01-24-2019).]

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Report this Post01-24-2019 06:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
You have something confused, because this statement is wrong:

Originally posted by thesameguy:

I thought there was a catch with the high value… it doesn't bolt up to the Fiero's Getrag.


So it does? A 3900 will bolt up to a Fiero's 282 and use a Fiero or G6 (or some other off the shelf) clutch?

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-24-2019).]

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Report this Post01-24-2019 06:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

thesameguy

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quote
Originally posted by ZCR1:

If you save your pennies, you could just throw one of these in and do eng/trans swaps as your heart desires.

https://www.haltech.com/pro.../universal-ecu-kits/



It's certainly one approach, but will probably have a real difficult time passing smog, which is more or less the important part!
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Report this Post01-24-2019 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
So it does? A 3900 will bolt up to a Fiero's 282 and use a Fiero or G6 (or some other off the shelf) clutch?


Yes. The 3900 uses the GM Metric bellhousing pattern. Same as the 2.8.

Just use a flywheel and clutch from a 1993 cavalier with the 3.1L getrag. It will bolt to the 3900 and work with the Fiero or htob version of the 282 getrag.
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Report this Post01-24-2019 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Yes. The 3900 uses the GM Metric bellhousing pattern. Same as the 2.8.

Just use a flywheel and clutch from a 1993 cavalier with the 3.1L getrag. It will bolt to the 3900 and work with the Fiero or htob version of the 282 getrag.


Ho ho! This is what I've been waiting for. Exactly which 3900 would be a good choice? (Sorry, I am from the slow class.)
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Report this Post01-25-2019 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Yes. The 3900 uses the GM Metric bellhousing pattern. Same as the 2.8.

Just use a flywheel and clutch from a 1993 cavalier with the 3.1L getrag. It will bolt to the 3900 and work with the Fiero or htob version of the 282 getrag.


Is that clutch good for 240-250 ftlbs? That engine only made 180 ftlbs.

But yes, any flywheel used with a V6 and 282 would work. I think even the Quad 4's used the same flywheel casting.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-25-2019).]

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Report this Post01-25-2019 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:
Ho ho! This is what I've been waiting for. Exactly which 3900 would be a good choice? (Sorry, I am from the slow class.)


I would use the G6/F40 one as the harness and ecm will already be setup for a manual transmission (and that was the only application with a manual). All the others would work, but you would need to remove the auto transmission wires and would want to get the manual calibration flashed in the ecm.


 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Is that clutch good for 240-250 ftlbs? That engine only made 180 ftlbs.

But yes, any flywheel used with a V6 and 282 would work. I think even the Quad 4's used the same flywheel casting.


The Spec or other aftermarket upgrades clutches for that application will hold 250+ lb-ft. Your typical autozone replacement clutch might hold for a while... as some guys have had decent luck with using stock clutches on the 4.9 and they have about 270 lb-ft.
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thesameguy
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Report this Post01-25-2019 10:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All very good to know - I think it was the "3.1l Cavalier clutch" info that I was missing.

As much as I would like to have a newer, nicer shifting gearbox easier & cheaper is definitely very, very tempting.

Although I'm sure my donor scenario is a G6 GTP in the driveway and I already have an F40, but whatever.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-25-2019).]

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Report this Post01-25-2019 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

thesameguy

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Member since Dec 2012
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
The Spec or other aftermarket upgrades clutches for that application will hold 250+ lb-ft. Your typical autozone replacement clutch might hold for a while... as some guys have had decent luck with using stock clutches on the 4.9 and they have about 270 lb-ft.


My O'Reilly-brand clutch in my XR4Ti is rated for 200 lb ft of torque but has been holding 340 lb ft for a decade now. So far so good!
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