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Ghost Mods that are Smog Friendly by Notorio
Started on: 12-22-2018 01:21 PM
Replies: 110 (1331 views)
Last post by: thesameguy on 01-25-2019 10:55 AM
thesameguy
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Report this Post01-02-2019 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:
Yeah, that is an attractive swap. From what has been posted here by others I'd be concerned I'd get a Ref who would be a stickler on the exhaust. For my long-term plan perhaps the thing to do is make an appointment with a Ref at the paper-planning stage and walk them through everything before committing to buying parts (and then HOPE they don't retire before I do the swap.)


Call the BAR ahead of time and get a conceptual approval. They will go over the swap with you on the phone. If you walk into the ref appointment and tell them you spoke with HQ and drop a name, they will be FAR more inclined to not hassle you. On both swaps I've done, I called ahead, got a name, and mentioned my case number and conversation with the guy doing the inspection. I had no troubles.

When I called on the last one, I asked about LS-powered Fieros and the person I spoke with (whom I have spoken with before, and is a friend of a friend) told a V8 Fiero with a manual transmission will never pass inspection - which doesn't mean it wouldn't, just that he wouldn't even consider pre-ok'ing it. He said a high value or high feature V6 would be fine - he looked at the books (guessing Mitchell) and said it shouldn't be a problem.

I will also mention during the scope of this conversation we talked about this guy:

http://h2ovanagon.com/

Notice at the top of his page that he got an EO for his 1.8t-powered Vanagons. I'm told it wasn't expensive or terribly difficult. Low five figures. If five California Fiero owners wanted to get an EO sticker for a 3900/F40 swap, we could do it. 100% confident. If I could get some focus in my life and learn some welding, I'd already be on it. All you need is a pile of pictures and documentation and, IIRC $10k or $20k to buy the lab time. Not a huge amount of money. You'd likely need to be without the exemplar car for a month or so while it's tested. I can't even get started, I am not (currently) capable of setting up the cradle. Boo.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-02-2019).]

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Notorio
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Report this Post01-02-2019 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
All you need is a pile of pictures and documentation and, IIRC $10k or $20k to buy the lab time. Not a huge amount of money. You'd likely need to be without the exemplar car for a month or so while it's tested ...

Now that is an interesting figure! It explains why so few aftermarket parts are CARB approved. This is when an awesome Angel Investor could perhaps swoop in and fund the project for The Fiero Community, if a sucker victim volunteer (?) can be found to do all the mods and paper work, etc.

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Report this Post01-02-2019 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Someone contact Jay Leno and get him interested......

I actually wanted to get Leno interested in doing a "Hulki GT".........LS4 pumped up to 400 hp, Cryo treated 5 spd with Quaife differential, Some really good shocks/Struts, aero mods...Tune it all up, and then run over to the 'Ring and lay down a sub-8 minute lap time.....Crazy extension of this idea; Install electric fans in the the deck vents, powered by a battery that is >charged< with regenerative braking....When you turn the wheel, the fans actuate to pull the car down so you can pull 2+ "G"s in the turns....Then set a sub-7 minute lap on the 'Ring........

I have........some.....crazy dreams...........

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quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


There are two tests for OBDII cars. On 1996 to 1999 cars, they are tested just like pre-OBD cars. Visual inspection, timing check, gas cap check, dyno check. For 2000+ cars, it's a visual inspection, gas cap check, and an OBDII reader to be sure "enough" (it varies by car) monitors are set. Nothing further is done.

On a typical smog inspection, 1 monitor can be unset. For an engine swap certification all of the monitors are required to be set.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-02-2019).]

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Report this Post01-02-2019 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


Call the BAR ahead of time and get a conceptual approval. They will go over the swap with you on the phone. If you walk into the ref appointment and tell them you spoke with HQ and drop a name, they will be FAR more inclined to not hassle you. On both swaps I've done, I called ahead, got a name, and mentioned my case number and conversation with the guy doing the inspection. I had no troubles.

When I called on the last one, I asked about LS-powered Fieros and the person I spoke with (whom I have spoken with before, and is a friend of a friend) told a V8 Fiero with a manual transmission will never pass inspection - which doesn't mean it wouldn't, just that he wouldn't even consider pre-ok'ing it. He said a high value or high feature V6 would be fine - he looked at the books (guessing Mitchell) and said it shouldn't be a problem.

I will also mention during the scope of this conversation we talked about this guy:

http://h2ovanagon.com/

Notice at the top of his page that he got an EO for his 1.8t-powered Vanagons. I'm told it wasn't expensive or terribly difficult. Low five figures. If five California Fiero owners wanted to get an EO sticker for a 3900/F40 swap, we could do it. 100% confident. If I could get some focus in my life and learn some welding, I'd already be on it. All you need is a pile of pictures and documentation and, IIRC $10k or $20k to buy the lab time. Not a huge amount of money. You'd likely need to be without the exemplar car for a month or so while it's tested. I can't even get started, I am not (currently) capable of setting up the cradle. Boo.



I have done at least 8 engine swaps and have never called anyone in advance. Maybe I should have? I can see how the Ref fails cars, just because the newer swaps are VERY complex and most people don't bother with the stuff that seems un-needed. But to do a modern swap is VERY in depth and meticulous.
Even if after spending 20k on an EO, nothing is guaranteed. The people that follow your footsteps need to do EVERYTHING EXACTLY as the EO requires. ANY deviation fails the swap, just as if they were on there own and trending new ground.
BUT, an EO allows you to offer a "kit" that is smog legal,.....IF it is complete and the buyers follow the instructions to the letter.

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quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Someone contact Jay Leno and get him interested......

I actually wanted to get Leno interested in doing a "Hulki GT".........LS4 pumped up to 400 hp, Cryo treated 5 spd with Quaife differential, Some really good shocks/Struts, aero mods...Tune it all up, and then run over to the 'Ring and lay down a sub-8 minute lap time.....Crazy extension of this idea; Install electric fans in the the deck vents, powered by a battery that is >charged< with regenerative braking....When you turn the wheel, the fans actuate to pull the car down so you can pull 2+ "G"s in the turns....Then set a sub-7 minute lap on the 'Ring........

I have........some.....crazy dreams...........

I thought I saw Leno at one time express a deep distaste for the Fiero. I doubt he wants anything to do with Fiero's, at least investing money in them. He is enthusiast and appreciates work and dedication, but I think that is as far as he will go?

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Report this Post01-02-2019 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
BUT, an EO allows you to offer a "kit" that is smog legal,.....IF it is complete and the buyers follow the instructions to the letter.


Now there's an actual payback for an Angel Investor. You could offer the kit and some consultation to make sure they are done correctly ...

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Report this Post01-03-2019 07:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:


Now there's an actual payback for an Angel Investor. You could offer the kit and some consultation to make sure they are done correctly ...


GM already makes such a kit. It is the E Rod crate engine.

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Report this Post01-03-2019 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for edfieroClick Here to Email edfieroSend a Private Message to edfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:


The good 'ol Peoples Republic of California (now sporting a 2/3 Super-majority in both houses of gov BTW) requires Classic Cars to only be driven to shows, not to Starbucks or the Beach, etc. I don't see a way around that. It is really a pity that Insurance Companies recognize that Classic Car owners want to drive their cars at other times (they allow 5,000 miles/yr I think?) but that the State Gov does not.


Jay Leno drives his cars around all the time, just for the fun of it. I'm not sure how they can enforce this rule about only driving to shows.

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quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
GM already makes such a kit. It is the E Rod crate engine.


Indeed they do! Here is the Manual version of the E Rod on JEGS! Wow, 430hp and 424lb-ft of torque! And 50-state compliant!! A bit pricey perhaps but I wonder if anyone has managed to get one of these into a Fiero?

JEGS E Rod Crate Motor w/Harness etc.

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Report this Post01-03-2019 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by edfiero:
Jay Leno drives his cars around all the time, just for the fun of it. I'm not sure how they can enforce this rule about only driving to shows.


In my search last week (which means details are now forgotten), there were a couple of posts concerned that if one had an accident one would have to prove they were on the way to a show for the insurance company to pay up. Other posts worried about being pulled over by the police and being unable to prove they were going to a show. Who knows. But I think Mr. Leno might be in a different category than me.

[This message has been edited by Notorio (edited 01-03-2019).]

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Report this Post01-03-2019 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
On a typical smog inspection, 1 monitor can be unset. For an engine swap certification all of the monitors are required to be set.


Yeah, on a typical one, but it does vary from car to car. Most cars get one monitor unset. Some Volvos, for example, can have all monitors unset because they reset every time the key is cycled. Some Jags, mine for example, can have two monitors unset because one monitor ("comprehensive monitor") is virtually impossible to set (requires driving >20mph in reverse in Reverse 2 - yes, the car has two reverse gears). Some Saabs can also have two monitors unset because one of them - I think evap monitoring - requires ambient temps to be above a certain temp to set and that could never happen in NorCal in the winter. Some of this is documented - the Volvo thing, for example - but some are not. I showed up three years ago with my XJR's monitors unset and the guy had to run the test to find out himself.

I am dubious whether these rules vary on a swap - you could never get a Volvo ECM to set all the monitors, ever. As soon as the key is cycled they all unset. I am 99.9% sure the monitor requirements follow the engine - though I can't immediately find documentation one way or the other.

 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
I have done at least 8 engine swaps and have never called anyone in advance. Maybe I should have? I can see how the Ref fails cars, just because the newer swaps are VERY complex and most people don't bother with the stuff that seems un-needed. But to do a modern swap is VERY in depth and meticulous.
Even if after spending 20k on an EO, nothing is guaranteed. The people that follow your footsteps need to do EVERYTHING EXACTLY as the EO requires. ANY deviation fails the swap, just as if they were on there own and trending new ground.
BUT, an EO allows you to offer a "kit" that is smog legal,.....IF it is complete and the buyers follow the instructions to the letter.


You definitely don't have to call in advance, but the advice that was given to me a long time ago was to call in advance, get a case number, speak to an advisor and then take that info to the ref. I really don't know whether it helps or not, but it can't hurt. And I do think that showing up saying "some important person in Sacramento ok'd this" has got to carry some weight. I mean, if it was pointless why would the advisors even exist to take the calls in the first place?

The point of doing it once *perfectly* and getting that EO is that everyone who buys your kit can show up to any smog shop for their biannual inspection, flash the sticker, and get that car smogged. An EO means you don't need a ref appointment at all. One Perfect 3.9/F40 Swap, $20k, and a Lab Test means saving hassle for every other person that does the swap.

That's the glory of that e-rod motor. You can bolt in an e-rod and an F40 into your Fiero, put the EO sticker in the engine bay, and take your LS-powered Fiero to a regular smog appointment. Obviously in this scenario someone would need to make and sell the 3.9/F40 "kit" that comes with the sticker, but maybe that's something some Fiero vendor would be willing to do.

SEMA has some good documentation on how to apply for a CARB EO sticker - it's all aimed at aftermarket parts and not engine swaps, but they offer a lot of help.

Eh... I'm not saying it's a good idea, or that someone wants to get involved in selling California-approved high-value swaps, or that $20k for this exemplar swap is a good use of money... it's just a thing that exists. If one person wants one motor swap, that e-rod motor is a far better use of money.

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thesameguy
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Report this Post01-03-2019 01:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:


Indeed they do! Here is the Manual version of the E Rod on JEGS! Wow, 430hp and 424lb-ft of torque! And 50-state compliant!! A bit pricey perhaps but I wonder if anyone has managed to get one of these into a Fiero?

JEGS E Rod Crate Motor w/Harness etc.


Yep, the BAR advisor I spoke with said this was the only way to do it. It was the $10k price tag that scared me away. Ouch. I love my Fiero, but I don't love it $10k motor swap.

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Report this Post01-03-2019 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Side note - Yesterday I called up the guy who does those 1.8t Vanagon swaps since he's here in town and he randomly just called back. He indicated that it took about a year but wasn't ultimately too difficult, just frustrating going back and forth between CARB and BAR. I offered to buy him lunch in exchange for picking his brain, but he's pretty busy right now. I'll try again in the future, maybe stalk him at his shop some day. I did ask for the name of the lab he used - maybe some useful information could be had from them. He also mentioned the most difficult part has been customers going to get their swapped Vanagons smogged - a lot of smog shops freak out with an EO'd engine swap, apparently. I'm not surprised at that.

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Report this Post01-03-2019 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Followup: The lab he used is in Ontario, CA (SoCal) and they had the exemplar vehicle for a week. Guessing it's these guys:

https://www.automotivetesting.com/

Doesn't sound too painful.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-03-2019).]

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Report this Post01-03-2019 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for shemdoggSend a Private Message to shemdoggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I was getting my truck smogged today at the shop down the street. I have to take the fiero there for smog but my door stickers kinda scratched up. i asked him about it he said it no problem. I told him its a kit car and he said he was a referee and saw all kinds of crazy builds getting the sb100 smog expemtion. I mentioned this thread and how a 3.4 can be slipped in place of the 2.8, and other mods so the smog guys dont notice he just laughed.
Definitely going to see him to smog the car!

shem

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Report this Post01-05-2019 12:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
Followup: The lab he used is in Ontario, CA (SoCal) and they had the exemplar vehicle for a week. Guessing it's these guys:
https://www.automotivetesting.com/
Doesn't sound too painful.


This is the service you are talking about ...

 
quote
CARB Executive Order (EO) Testing

California Vehicle Code, section 27156 (VC27156) and the Federal Clean Air Act(CAA) prohibit vehicle modifications which increase motor vehicle emissions. However, since most properly engineered parts do not increase emissions, the laws allow for exemptions for the installation of parts proven by their manufacturer and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) not to increase emissions. The process by which these exemptions are granted is via an Executive Order (EO). ATDS can acquire the necessary vehicles, perform modifications, conduct the required tests, and provide reports of the results to ultimately grant a CARB Executive Order.


Maybe I will volunteer for the 3.9/F40 idea after all. Ontario is actually pretty close to where I live.

 
quote
Originally posted by shemdogg:
I was getting my truck smogged today at the shop down the street. I have to take the fiero there for smog but my door stickers kinda scratched up. i asked him about it he said it no problem. I told him its a kit car and he said he was a referee and saw all kinds of crazy builds getting the sb100 smog expemtion. I mentioned this thread and how a 3.4 can be slipped in place of the 2.8, and other mods so the smog guys dont notice he just laughed.
Definitely going to see him to smog the car!
shem


Hopefully he hasn't put out an APB over Smog Central's bat phone ... be on the look-out for Ghost Mods in Fieros

[This message has been edited by Notorio (edited 01-05-2019).]

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Report this Post01-07-2019 10:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I couldn't really get out of the guy what his "kit" entailed, and I understand why he didn't want to discuss specifics. I'm sure there's some secret sauce in there. His recommendation was that I call the guy I 'know' at the BAR to get the details on starting a case. Fair enough.

From what I have read, one major advantage of having a swap certified like this would be that you'd have some much-needed leeway on the electronics side, like divorcing the ECM from the BCM and all the other modules rather than fighting them. When you turn the car over to a lab, you're basically recertifying the powertrain and not relying on the configuration and certification GM got for it in a G6, etc.

Documenting this would be a major benefit to people with other '80s cars in California. If there was a roadmap to getting a popular modern engine into an old car maybe more people would (could) do it. I'd be more than happy to participate, and I a) have family in Ontario and b) could easily be without the Fiero for a month (or a year), but I definitely couldn't do it solo... my first Fiero engine swap is not one I'd want to be a test case.

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Report this Post01-07-2019 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for str8maxnSend a Private Message to str8maxnEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

One could always find a shop that will smog your ride for an additional cost regardless of what mods you have.
I used to know of a guy that had 1976 datsun 280Z with a Chevy 350 V8 that got smogged in his manner.

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Report this Post01-09-2019 11:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So what if we say the EO application would be for the 3.9L / F40 combination. Approximate cost for future swappers would be:

$3000 for rebuilt engine
$1500 for new transmission
$ ?? for 'kit' (motor mnts, axles, exhaust, ECM, harness, 6-spd shifter, etc.)

I guess this would be in the range of 3800SC or LS4. Could be much cheaper w/used parts if desired. But no need to go for the $8000+ eRod motor.

[This message has been edited by Notorio (edited 01-09-2019).]

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quote
Originally posted by Notorio:

So what if we say the EO application would be for the 3.9L / F40 combination. Approximate cost for future swappers would be:

$3000 for rebuilt engine
$1500 for new transmission
$ ?? for 'kit' (motor mnts, axles, exhaust, ECM, harness, 6-spd shifter, etc.)

I guess this would be in the range of 3800SC or LS4. Could be much cheaper w/used parts if desired. But no need to go for the $8000+ eRod motor.


The E Rod at $8k is a GREAT deal. Think about it, it is 430hp and turn key, brand new no crash damage. It even has a factory warranty. No check engine lights for missing electronics and no warning lights for stuff like anti-lock brake components. No limp home mode because a mistake in the wire harness or missing parts. No trouble shooting,..it just works perfectly right at your door step. It comes with cats and a wire harness. People pay 10k to convert a total in a Fiero.
The E Rod is the best engine conversion option for those that want a V8. The price is not that bad. Think about the time saved.....

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Report this Post01-10-2019 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:

So what if we say the EO application would be for the 3.9L / F40 combination. Approximate cost for future swappers would be:

$3000 for rebuilt engine
$1500 for new transmission
$ ?? for 'kit' (motor mnts, axles, exhaust, ECM, harness, 6-spd shifter, etc.)

I guess this would be in the range of 3800SC or LS4. Could be much cheaper w/used parts if desired. But no need to go for the $8000+ eRod motor.



The kit price would also need to amortize the cost of obtaining the EO over the initial production run, so add that cost in. If it's $20,000 to get the EO, then that's $1,000 each for the first 20 kits. 20 is a LOT of kits for the Fiero market.
Also, fuel & coolant plumbing.
Also, fuel tank pressure sensor and method of incorporating that into the Fiero fuel system.

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Report this Post01-10-2019 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It's worth noting that nobody knows what that EO actually costs. It could be $10k or $20k or $50k or more. I doubt some repair shop with a 1.8t and a Vanagon threw $50k or even $20k at a conversion, though - that's big money for a small shop - so I suspect the number is lower rather than higher.

I don't think the EO approach makes any sense if you're planning on buying new or reman parts. The potential glory of the 3.9/F40/EO approach would be finding a used drivetrain for a grand and paying 10% or 20% of the EO cost to end up with a California (and New York!) legal 250hp Fiero for four or five grand.

If you've got money to burn on new/reman parts and you're gonna spend big money on reman stuff, and you're at six grand or more for an EO'd V6 swap, I think Rick is dead on. Spend the extra and Get an e-rod motor.

Personally, I'm maxed out for motor swaps at about $4k. I can stomach that, so it's junkyard parts all the way for me.

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Report this Post01-10-2019 06:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

The E Rod at $8k is a GREAT deal. Think about it, it is 430hp and turn key, brand new no crash damage. It even has a factory warranty. No check engine lights for missing electronics and no warning lights for stuff like anti-lock brake components. No limp home mode because a mistake in the wire harness or missing parts. No trouble shooting,..it just works perfectly right at your door step. It comes with cats and a wire harness..


Just as an FYI, and E-rod LS3/F40 swap is going to be alot more than the $8500 for the engine, harness, & ECM.

Just a high level ballpark of the costs:
8500 for the LS3 E-rod engine, harness & ecm
1000 for the F40
2500 for the LSx install kit (flywheel, clutch, starter, mounts, water pump stuff, etc (reduce from 3700 due to not needing the exhaust and overlap parts with the F40 kit)
2500 for the F40 install kit (mounts, axles, shifter & cables, Vss, etc (reduced from 3858 for the master kit due to ovelap in parts)
500 for the exhaust post cat.
2500+ for the install labor and miscellaneous work.

So the real ball park is $17,500 and it could easily be + $2,500 to 5000 more depending on parts decisions and other options.

I had $8K in my LS4/F40 swap and the engine was $1000 (not $7K more for the E-rod) and I made just about everything to install it.

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Report this Post01-11-2019 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
It's worth noting that nobody knows what that EO actually costs ...


OK. I will call Automotive Testing & Development Services, Inc. next week and talk to someone to see if I can get a ballpark range for CARB EO testing.

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
I don't think the EO approach makes any sense if you're planning on buying new or reman parts. The potential glory of the 3.9/F40/EO approach would be finding a used drivetrain for a grand and paying 10% or 20% of the EO cost to end up with a California (and New York!) legal 250hp Fiero for four or five grand.


Without researching this, and for the sake of discussion, why wouldn't I just keep my 5 spd and submit this with a 3800SC swap for EO testing? Alternatively, what about the 3.9/5 spd ... would our Getrags work for that application? I mention these options as cost reductions.

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Report this Post01-11-2019 07:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Just as an FYI, and E-rod LS3/F40 swap is going to be alot more than the $8500 for the engine, harness, & ECM.

Just a high level ballpark of the costs:
8500 for the LS3 E-rod engine, harness & ecm
1000 for the F40
2500 for the LSx install kit (flywheel, clutch, starter, mounts, water pump stuff, etc (reduce from 3700 due to not needing the exhaust and overlap parts with the F40 kit)
2500 for the F40 install kit (mounts, axles, shifter & cables, Vss, etc (reduced from 3858 for the master kit due to ovelap in parts)
500 for the exhaust post cat.
2500+ for the install labor and miscellaneous work.

So the real ball park is $17,500 and it could easily be + $2,500 to 5000 more depending on parts decisions and other options.

I had $8K in my LS4/F40 swap and the engine was $1000 (not $7K more for the E-rod) and I made just about everything to install it.


I understand what you are saying and agree. My point is the emissions compliance, brand new and warranty. I got my LS4 complete with wire harnesses for the entire car, and all computers radio HVAC controls, light switch, gauges and more for around $2,000. I don't have any estimate on installed cost, but it was nowhere near as much as yours. I also did most of my own work. By far the hardest was the dash and electronics systems. Second to that was emissions compliance. The emissions compliance was was more than half the cost and most of the time spent on the swap. If all I had to do was drop in an emissions compliant stand alone engine and ECM, it would have been worth $6,000 to me and countless hours trying to cut splice and rewire the car for all of the different components. The hoops I had to jump through just for emissions compliance was TOTALLY unacceptable and ridiculous.

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Report this Post01-11-2019 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have a few questions on the E-Rod route. The info says:

 
quote
In addition to the E-ROD system, the builder will need to source additional components to complete the assembly and get the vehicle running.

They include:
Fuel tank
Fuel lines (re-circulating or returnless)
Fuel pump
Fuel tank vent line from the tank to the evaporative emissions canister
Pure line from the canister to the engine purge solenoid
Air induction system that incorporates the mass airflow sensor
Exhaust system behind the catalytic converters


Seems like someone has to verify these points before the EO sticker can be used. That seems to be outside the scope of a Smog Test shop.

The other point is what I highlighted in bold: exhaust system behind the cats. Looking at the picture from the catalog those supplied head pipes would have to be modified to work with our engine compartments. Wouldn't that disqualify the EO sticker?


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Report this Post01-11-2019 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Notorio:

I have a few questions on the E-Rod route. The info says:


Seems like someone has to verify these points before the EO sticker can be used. That seems to be outside the scope of a Smog Test shop.

Even if you used the E Rod engine and all of the proper components were used, you will still need to have a ref certify the transplant. No standard smog shop will touch it without the certification sticker that the ref places in the door jamb. That sticker has a bar code that the smog testing equipment requires to identity exactly what is being tested.
For example, my LS4 1988GT is not a Fiero at the smog station, it is a 2006 Monte Carlo SS.
I don't know what an E Rod will be labeled as, but it won't be tested as a Fiero.

 
quote

The other point is what I highlighted in bold: exhaust system behind the cats. Looking at the picture from the catalog those supplied head pipes would have to be modified to work with our engine compartments. Wouldn't that disqualify the EO sticker?



I have mentioned before that it is impossible to pass any V8 in a Fiero "by the letter of the law". The ref will use discretion on each and every certificate they issue. The only way engine swaps are certified in California, are by NOT following a rigid and narrow interpretation of the emissions laws. So yes modifying or replacement of ANY emissions related component is not acceptable, including exhaust manifolds.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-12-2019).]

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Report this Post01-11-2019 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have to admit that I am skeptical of an EO number helping Fiero swappers in their endeavors. For starters, doesn't a new EO have to apply the latest emissions standards to the swap "EO"? Those standards are stricter than just swapping an engine that is already a few years old, and in some cases impossible to apply or retrofit the new standards and equipment to the engine that you want to certify.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-11-2019).]

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Report this Post01-14-2019 06:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

"EO" is Exemption Order. That means that components the EO refers to are allowed to be installed on the chassis to which the EO applies, and no special handling is necessary. If your MSD coil or Edelbrock intake has an EO for your 1985 Camaro, that means the smog tech can ignore them and test your '85 Camaro as an '85 Camaro. If your 1988 Fiero has an EO for its Magnaflow 2.5" catalytic converter, it means the tech can smog your car as an '88 Fiero and needs no special treatment. If you put an e-rod motor in your pre-OBD car, it goes to a regular smog shop and it's smogged like the pre-OBD car it is.

I *definitely* understand that a regular smog shop wouldn't want to touch that with a 10' pole. That was what the Vanagon guy told me - his customers sometimes had problems getting their EO'd 1.8t swaps smogged by corner shop. I get it, but that's the RULES. That's what the EO is FOR. Go to another shop, try a STAR (high-level certification) shop. I already talked to my guys about it (back in 2016, after I talked to the ref) and they knew the score and weren't worried. There is nothing about an OBDI "smog test" that is cylinder count or displacement specific.

I don't know what happens if you have an OBDII motor in an OBDI car as far as the functional test goes, but based on the literature from the e-rod motor my assumption is NOTHING changes. The e-rod motor is OBDII compliant, but it's still smogged as an OBDI motor - that is, no e-test. I'd assume that OBDII-compliant 3.9l would be dyno tested and visually inspected just like a 2.8l.

As to "why not EO a 3800SC," I think the answer is I have no idea. It should work. You could theoretically EO an LS2. Or a 2JZ. The point of submitting the car to the lab is so they can certify the changes made do not increase emissions. If your swap doesn't increase the emissions profile, the lab certifies that, and you jump through the BAR's paperwork hoops, you can have an EO. There is nothing an Audi 1.8t has in common with a VW flat four, but that EO got issued. I like the 3.9l because it's a good mix of properties (output, packaging, price) but it could just as easily be a Ford Ecoboost or a Honda ZC. Every day the High Feature V6 gets more plentiful and cheaper. An EO'd 3.6l wouldn't be bad. I guess all my reasons for "why not 3800SC" are personal. Just not what I want for my Fiero.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-14-2019).]

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Report this Post01-14-2019 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Just as an FYI, and E-rod LS3/F40 swap is going to be alot more than the $8500 for the engine, harness, & ECM.

Just a high level ballpark of the costs:
8500 for the LS3 E-rod engine, harness & ecm
1000 for the F40
2500 for the LSx install kit (flywheel, clutch, starter, mounts, water pump stuff, etc (reduce from 3700 due to not needing the exhaust and overlap parts with the F40 kit)
2500 for the F40 install kit (mounts, axles, shifter & cables, Vss, etc (reduced from 3858 for the master kit due to ovelap in parts)
500 for the exhaust post cat.
2500+ for the install labor and miscellaneous work.

So the real ball park is $17,500 and it could easily be + $2,500 to 5000 more depending on parts decisions and other options.

I had $8K in my LS4/F40 swap and the engine was $1000 (not $7K more for the E-rod) and I made just about everything to install it.


Excellent point, and a big part of the reason I started looking at the 3.9l (or B284) instead. Because I can unbolt that from a G6 (or 9-3) all ready to go.

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Report this Post01-15-2019 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

"EO" is Exemption Order. That means that components the EO refers to are allowed to be installed on the chassis to which the EO applies, and no special handling is necessary. If your MSD coil or Edelbrock intake has an EO for your 1985 Camaro, that means the smog tech can ignore them and test your '85 Camaro as an '85 Camaro. If your 1988 Fiero has an EO for its Magnaflow 2.5" catalytic converter, it means the tech can smog your car as an '88 Fiero and needs no special treatment. If you put an e-rod motor in your pre-OBD car, it goes to a regular smog shop and it's smogged like the pre-OBD car it is.

I *definitely* understand that a regular smog shop wouldn't want to touch that with a 10' pole. That was what the Vanagon guy told me - his customers sometimes had problems getting their EO'd 1.8t swaps smogged by corner shop. I get it, but that's the RULES. That's what the EO is FOR. Go to another shop, try a STAR (high-level certification) shop. I already talked to my guys about it (back in 2016, after I talked to the ref) and they knew the score and weren't worried. There is nothing about an OBDI "smog test" that is cylinder count or displacement specific.

I don't know what happens if you have an OBDII motor in an OBDI car as far as the functional test goes, but based on the literature from the e-rod motor my assumption is NOTHING changes. The e-rod motor is OBDII compliant, but it's still smogged as an OBDI motor - that is, no e-test. I'd assume that OBDII-compliant 3.9l would be dyno tested and visually inspected just like a 2.8l.

As to "why not EO a 3800SC," I think the answer is I have no idea. It should work. You could theoretically EO an LS2. Or a 2JZ. The point of submitting the car to the lab is so they can certify the changes made do not increase emissions. If your swap doesn't increase the emissions profile, the lab certifies that, and you jump through the BAR's paperwork hoops, you can have an EO. There is nothing an Audi 1.8t has in common with a VW flat four, but that EO got issued. I like the 3.9l because it's a good mix of properties (output, packaging, price) but it could just as easily be a Ford Ecoboost or a Honda ZC. Every day the High Feature V6 gets more plentiful and cheaper. An EO'd 3.6l wouldn't be bad. I guess all my reasons for "why not 3800SC" are personal. Just not what I want for my Fiero.



I read through the link about the EO, that is what made me skeptical about going through all of the hard work. The way I read it, the EO is very rigid as far as what drive train is used. For example, only one specific engine and transmission combination is approved per EO certificate. So only a VERY exact engine, year and options package can be used to satisfy, or apply to the approved EO number. So swappers will have to find and install an exact drive train with specific exhaust and air induction parts. So basically, like I have mentioned before, you can get an EO number, then manufacture and sell "kits" that qualify an EXACT or specific engine and transmission combo. And possibly even the car can be taken into consideration because of the gas tank and vapor systems they use. Most people who have posted on this forum over the years want to modify the engine, NOT just install another stocker. And the options very WIDELY from automatic, manual, headers and on and on. Some if not most engine swaps are modified before the swap is even complete. And in California, the number smog legal swaps is VERY low. So, how much of a market do you expect to have for this EO project?
Swappers don't want to be bound to just one engine or drive train, they have various opinions one what is best for them.
I Don't think you can compare the bus to the Fiero, when the VW bus market is booming and people basically forgot what a Fiero is. The stock Fiero had twice the power of a bus, so ANY swap is an upgrade in a bus. And add A/C and better reliability to the bus...... win win.
The EO route is just to narrow and the market to small. A regular engine swap is cheaper and allows the owner greater flexibility of engine choices and combos.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-15-2019).]

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Report this Post01-15-2019 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm not sure what you mean by "the EO is very rigid." It's not "the EO" - an EO is a piece of paper certifying the part(s) you're selling do not adversely affect vehicle emissions and there is a lab test to back it up. There are thousands or tens of thousands of EO'd parts, from exhaust manifolds to carburetors to ignition coils. If you're saying that an "EO'd LS2 swap" meant you couldn't install a non-EO'd cam, then yes, you're correct. The EO is given to the part or collection of parts - if you modify them, the EO no longer applies.

I understand what you're saying that people want to have complete control over their swap, but that's only some people. I have a lot of money in brakes and suspension and rolling stock, but I would be very happy with a reliable 250hp. I would put a bow on that car and call it done. Some people want an easy path past a 140hp (on a good day) 2.8 V6 and no smog hassles. Is it two people? Ten people? Twenty people? I have no idea - you're very right the market could be so small it's not worth worrying about. But nobody learns anything when there's no discussion, and that's kinda what that is.

I totally get that a customized V8 is the only way you'd roll, and that's pretty rad. But I know at least a few Fiero owners who don't need, don't want, or don't care about something that complex and just want "more" with a minimum of cost and effort. I think it's worth discussing, even if just for the knowledge share.

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Report this Post01-15-2019 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
I totally get that a customized V8 is the only way you'd roll, and that's pretty rad. But I know at least a few Fiero owners who don't need, don't want, or don't care about something that complex and just want "more" with a minimum of cost and effort. I think it's worth discussing, even if just for the knowledge share.


If we are leaving behind the original intent of my post (i.e. Ghost Mods that are Smog Friendly ... and thus undetectable), to instead further discuss EO-friendly Swaps for CA and NY, I would suggest that there are perhaps TWO types of customers in the Fiero Owner pool, namely, those that would like an EO that is:

1) A V6 that pretty-much bolts in and works with an existing trans but sports let's say 240+ HP, and is Cheap (with the engine being readily available)
2) A V8 that is set up for major HP (350+) and a much better trans

If we were going to debate THAT, I would ask what are the Best Candidates for Path 1 and for Path 2? I think we'd need 20 people on each Path to make the cost affordable.

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Report this Post01-15-2019 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

I'm not sure what you mean by "the EO is very rigid." It's not "the EO" - an EO is a piece of paper certifying the part(s) you're selling do not adversely affect vehicle emissions and there is a lab test to back it up. There are thousands or tens of thousands of EO'd parts, from exhaust manifolds to carburetors to ignition coils. If you're saying that an "EO'd LS2 swap" meant you couldn't install a non-EO'd cam, then yes, you're correct. The EO is given to the part or collection of parts - if you modify them, the EO no longer applies.

I understand what you're saying that people want to have complete control over their swap, but that's only some people. I have a lot of money in brakes and suspension and rolling stock, but I would be very happy with a reliable 250hp. I would put a bow on that car and call it done. Some people want an easy path past a 140hp (on a good day) 2.8 V6 and no smog hassles. Is it two people? Ten people? Twenty people? I have no idea - you're very right the market could be so small it's not worth worrying about. But nobody learns anything when there's no discussion, and that's kinda what that is.

I totally get that a customized V8 is the only way you'd roll, and that's pretty rad. But I know at least a few Fiero owners who don't need, don't want, or don't care about something that complex and just want "more" with a minimum of cost and effort. I think it's worth discussing, even if just for the knowledge share.


Sorry, Notorio. If you would like a new thread, I understand.
But this thread has some good stuff regarding California emissions regulations.

I must say that I am not a highly modified V8 guy. I am just an average car guy. I truly appreciate the hard work, blood, sweat and tears that people put into their projects, regardless of the type or brand.
I just want to discuss the emissions regulations in California and how to get some engine swaps certified. Yes we can hide our performance modifications and even swaps so they are practically undetectable and if that is the core of your thread, I will respect that.

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Report this Post01-15-2019 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

I must say that I am not a highly modified V8 guy.


I am!

From my admittedly limited knowledge, EO numbers are given to brand new parts that have been proven to not degrade the emissions for the application designed for, and have proven they will maintain emission compliance for a certain amount of time. The EO number for the LS3 E-rod takes this concept to the next level by grouping all new parts, sensors, and controller into a package that will result in less emissions than any OBD1 and prior application ever had.

If you try to expand this EO concept to include used engines and parts of unknown condition and expected life of meeting current emissions (even if it will pass today), then the likelihood becomes much, much more iffy.

Now a shop could likely go through the motions that you went through with your 3.5 Shortstar and LS4 and come up with a combination of parts and installation parameters that passed their ref for that particular application. Then they can likely replicate this process exactly and get the next 2, 3 or more passed with less effort as they have proved the process, their installation precision, and the results with this specific application. In my mind, this really isn't and EO type process, it is just proving and replicating the process with the same application and same players involved.

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Report this Post01-16-2019 12:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
Sorry, Notorio. If you would like a new thread, I understand ...


Nope, not at all. I was just trying to 'shape' the evolving discussion in what seemed like a good direction, i.e. the 2 Path approach to EOs that we have been kicking around. However, a good point has just been raised, namely, EOs seem to be for 'new parts' and not for old engines swapped into older cars. If this is the case then it seems like my 2 Paths are kaput.

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quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
If you try to expand this EO concept to include used engines and parts of unknown condition and expected life of meeting current emissions (even if it will pass today), then the likelihood becomes much, much more iffy.


It's not a concept. Check back further in the thread and you'll find the info I posted about the EO'd Vanagon 1.8t swap. The BAR supervisor *specifically* mentioned this to me as one of two paths to get a V8 Fiero with a manual transmission in California - the other being the e-rod motor. H20 Vanagon offers a service which includes a reman 1.8t ($18,880) or a kit that lets you use your used engine ($6,480). No matter what, new 1.8t engines have not been available for a decade. There is no certification process for remanufactured engines, there is no distinguishing a reman motor from a really clean used motor. All 1.8t motors in 2019 will be used. Used parts are *definitely* on the table for an EO.

Believe me, when John I mentioned this was a thing I was shocked - I didn't imagine it was possible. But, if you read the EO rules there's no reason it isn't - the EO is issued for a collection of parts (new, used, factory, aftermarket, whatever) that are certified to work in a specific way by an independent lab... that's the target you gotta hit. It should have been more obvious - I mean, EOs are issued for used ("recertified") catalytic converters!

 
quote
Now a shop could likely go through the motions that you went through with your 3.5 Shortstar and LS4 and come up with a combination of parts and installation parameters that passed their ref for that particular application. Then they can likely replicate this process exactly and get the next 2, 3 or more passed with less effort as they have proved the process, their installation precision, and the results with this specific application. In my mind, this really isn't and EO type process, it is just proving and replicating the process with the same application and same players involved.


Yes, exactly. The advantage of H20 Vanagon's approach is that when you buy their kit or their service, you get a sticker for your car saying it's smoggable as-is. The disadvantage of a shop with a formula they repeat is that each customer has to then go see a ref. If you're West Coast Fiero and you know a secret smog ref that will sticker your "technically illegal" swaps that's great, but if you're Rick and your ref is going to give you hell about body control modules and all manner of stuff, that sucks. When you don't have the EO, you're at the mercy of whatever community college instructor you get. When you have that EO, you skip that line.

If there was a kit I could buy to skip that line, I'd try to do it. Unfortunately the only such kit that's out there is the e-rod one, and as established that's a five-figure solution. It's just too rich for my blood. $6.480 and a G6 front clip? I'm listening.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-16-2019).]

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Report this Post01-16-2019 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

In fact, to be 100% certain, here is that Vanagon EO:

https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/mspr...vices/eo/d-712-1.pdf

Fourth paragraph, first sentence:

 
quote
all necessary parts to replace the stock 1980 to 1991 model years VW Vanagon or Transporter engine with a used 2002 to 2006 model year 1.8 liter turbocharged engine

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-16-2019).]

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Report this Post01-16-2019 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Amazing! You can get an EO with used parts!! Here is the link to the Vanagon conversion kit ...

Home of the H2oVanagon 1.8T Engine Conversion Kit:

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