I did figure out one thing...the larg (er?) metal tube coming from the secondary intake manifold is not connected to the throttle body. Would this keep it from starting, or just cause a high idle if it did start?
The whole ignition system has pretty much been replaced. I will break it down below.
New plugs and wires New rotor and dist cap New coil (AC Delco) New pickup coil (AC Delco)(pulled dist yesterday and replaced this. Checked dist functionality, it is good to go.) New MAT sensor New MAP sensor New IAC (AC Delco) New ICM (AC Delco)
New fuel injectors (remaned, tested prior to install, good flow) New fuel pump New fuel filter Fuel rail rebuilt (cleaned, new o-rings and gasket)
I have good spark, confirmed through the plugs, started at the coil and tested all the way to the plugs. Good snap sound and obvious arc across approx 1/4 inch gap with test tool up to the plugs, then confirmed good spark at each plug...all of them, not just a random sample.
Fuel pump kicks on when key is turned on, check engine light comes on, etc. If I just bump the key, the fuel pump kicks on again after the bump. Fuel pressure is 40 PSI + at the fuel rail.
I can smell gas when trying to start, it will try to start (fuel from cold start injector, I assume) after sitting for awhile. If I try to crank it more than once, I need to hold the gas pedal down to the floor before turing on the ignition, or it just cranks and won't try to start. If I hold the pedal down, it will try to start.
I picked up some noid lights the other day, so I plan to test power to the fuel injectors today. I also am going to set the timing from scratch, as I have no idea if it was good from the get go.
**QUESTIONS**
Testing the injector power with a noid light - If I find issues here with power, what can be the causes? I assume it can be bad wire/s, bad ECU. Anything else?
Is there a way to test the ECU if it is thought to be bad? I am not a magician with a multi-meter, mainly because I am color blind. Wire locations from a viewers perspective help me much ore than colors, because I need to have a color consultant if trying to go by colors
Anyone see anything I might have missed?
I am okay with replacing the ECU if I need to, I just want to make sure that is the actual problem before I go trying to do it.
I really appreciate all input!
D.
[This message has been edited by damittron (edited 01-19-2019).]
I tested my fuel injection power at the 6 wide connector. I get 12.xx volts at the pink and pink white wires. Odd thing is; I get 12 volts as soon as the ignition is turned on, and also while cranking. There isn't a pulse of 12 volts on either wire during cranking. Not sure if that is correct or not. Mind you, it never actually fires up and runs.
Noid light was bad, it didn't work at all, have to return it for an exchange. Is it just me, or does it seem like every damn thing you buy now-a-days takes two or three trips to the store to get a good one...whatever it is.
Anyway - I did a diagnostic check as well while I was at it, and the new MAP sensor I installed was bad, had to take that back and get another one, the second one seems fine, no errors on the ECU after replacing it.
D.
[This message has been edited by damittron (edited 01-19-2019).]
I tested my fuel injection power at the 6 wide connector. I get 12.xx volts at the pink and pink white wires. Odd thing is; I get 12 volts as soon as the ignition is turned on, and also while cranking. There isn't a pulse of 12 volts on either wire during cranking. Not sure if that is correct or not.
The injectors are fired by the ECU grounding the 'hot' wires, so what you are seeing is normal.
also: The tube from the throttle body to the lower manifold is needed. Did you get that installed properly?
[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 01-19-2019).]
The noid light would not flash if the injectors are not being grounded by the ECU. The engine would not start if the injectors are firing.
I am not sure I follow you here. Is that a type-o? The engine would start if the injectors are firing, right? As long as you have spark and timing is correct.
I'm not clear on whether the noid light is indicating pulses or not. If not, check the injector fuses. There are two of them. (I'll mention that one of the injector fuses also feeds the EGR solenoid. If one of those fuses keeps blowing, unplug the EGR solenoid. It's the cylindrical thing below the thermostat cap. Has a 4-wire connector.) Edit - If you have 12 volts, the fuses are good. Doh!
Having to floor the gas while cranking almost sounds like a "flood" condition. If you can find a scan tool, look at the Intake Air Temp, and the Coolant Temp values. If either of them is unrealistically low, it can cause the engine to flood, because the ECM thinks its way colder than it is, and will compensate by dumping gas in. FWIW, the coolant temp sensor is on the lower intake manifold. It's horizontal, and points pretty much directly at the right shock tower. The IAT sensor is in the front side of the air filter canister.
If you have an ohm meter, you can measure the resistance of those sensors. Use this chart.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-20-2019).]
I'm not clear on whether the noid light is indicating pulses or not. If not, check the injector fuses. There are two of them. (I'll mention that one of the injector fuses also feeds the EGR solenoid. If one of those fuses keeps blowing, unplug the EGR solenoid. It's the cylindrical thing below the thermostat cap. Has a 4-wire connector.) Edit - If you have 12 volts, the fuses are good. Doh!
Having to floor the gas while cranking almost sounds like a "flood" condition. If you can find a scan tool, look at the Intake Air Temp, and the Coolant Temp values. If either of them is unrealistically low, it can cause the engine to flood, because the ECM thinks its way colder than it is, and will compensate by dumping gas in. FWIW, the coolant temp sensor is on the lower intake manifold. It's horizontal, and points pretty much directly at the right shock tower. The IAT sensor is in the front side of the air filter canister.
If you have an ohm meter, you can measure the resistance of those sensors. Use this chart.
I would love to find a scan tool, any recommendations? I have replaced the IAT sensor, but not the EGR solenoid. No fuse problems, I even replaced every one of them just because the car had been sitting for so long, figured they might have some corrosion or some cracks that weren't visable...to my old ass eyes!
I would love to find a scan tool, any recommendations? I have replaced the IAT sensor, but not the EGR solenoid. No fuse problems, I even replaced every one of them just because the car had been sitting for so long, figured they might have some corrosion or some cracks that weren't visable...to my old ass eyes!
I have an Auto-X-Ray 6000. It does OBD1 (like our Fieros) and OBD2 (most anything 1996 and newer.) They are available from time to time on eBay. The company is out of business, so they are no longer supported, however.
If you have a laptop and cable, you can download WinALDL. I don't know if anyone is still making the cable. You can make one yourself, if you're handy with a soldering iron. http://winaldl.joby.se/
If the car sat a while, did you drain all of the old gas out of the tank before putting in fresh gas? Old gas can gum up everything.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Just to be clear, I have fuel and spark, so it seems I am missing timing. I just ordered a new distributor for it, and will be setting the timing on it next week some time. I will update once I have installed the new distro and set timing.
I have an Auto-X-Ray 6000. It does OBD1 (like our Fieros) and OBD2 (most anything 1996 and newer.) They are available from time to time on eBay. The company is out of business, so they are no longer supported, however.
If you have a laptop and cable, you can download WinALDL. I don't know if anyone is still making the cable. You can make one yourself, if you're handy with a soldering iron. http://winaldl.joby.se/
Originally posted by damittron: Found one on eBay, thanks a ton for the info!
D.
There are a ton of cables that are supposed to come with that thing. Make sure it at least has a GM OBD1 cable, and the regular OBD2 cable. The other cables are (I believe) Ford-specific, and some sort of OBD1.5 (looks like OBD2, but has a blue headshell.) You might have a hard time sourcing them elsewhere.
There are a ton of cables that are supposed to come with that thing. Make sure it at least has a GM OBD1 cable, and the regular OBD2 cable. The other cables are (I believe) Ford-specific, and some sort of OBD1.5 (looks like OBD2, but has a blue headshell.) You might have a hard time sourcing them elsewhere.
Yep, I figured they would be hard to come by, so I found one that has the GM, Ford and OBD1.5 blue interface. It has 8 cables total. One of them is a old style serial interface. Should be good to go.
It doesn't take the timing being off by very much to cause it not to start. Make sure the timing is spot on before you throw any more parts at this thing.
Almost sounds like you are down to the ECU if its not the timing.
It doesn't take the timing being off by very much to cause it not to start. Make sure the timing is spot on before you throw any more parts at this thing.
Almost sounds like you are down to the ECU if its not the timing.
(Drives me crazy to see these threads and then never find out what the problem was.)
HAHA! I know...I'm slow!
I went over this evening and put a new distributor in, the old one seemed to have quite a bit of slack in it. I used my trustly Top Dead Center Whistle to get my timing set after putting in the distributor. It started for about 10 seconds, then wouldn't do it again. I ran out of time with my helper, so I plan on trying again tomorrow.
I did get my AutoXRay 6000, so I pulled all the info on it. I will post that info after I eat some chow.
EGR Duty Cycle - 0.0% And there was some info on Battery voltages, all of those were good. Any one want to take a stab at interpreting these? I believe I have a PDF of the scantool manual that gives some pretty generic answers for them, but if anyone knows if any of the above shows any signs I should be worried about, pleae feel free to chime in!
D.
[This message has been edited by damittron (edited 01-29-2019).]
I am assuming it is the timing that is keeping it from running. Everything else, including the ECM look good. I will have some time this next week to work on it, so I hope to have it running.
Have you checked for broken or corroded ground wires? I've heard a lot of stories from car buddies having various problems which came down to a bad ground wire. I don't recall where they are on the Fiero, might be one somewhere going from the engine to the frame.
Have you checked for broken or corroded ground wires? I've heard a lot of stories from car buddies having various problems which came down to a bad ground wire. I don't recall where they are on the Fiero, might be one somewhere going from the engine to the frame.
The only one I know of is the ground strap from the block to the hood hindge. I cleaned it up and made sure it had good metal contact, not just paint. I will check for more just to be safe. Battery ground and hot wires both have been replaced.
**UPDATE** I got TDC set and my distributor all set, still no start. I had a code 42, so I pulled the spark plug wires up into a bundle and got them away from the ICM, checked my wires from the coil to the ICM and cleared it. It stayed clear, so no problem there.
Attempted to start it for a bit, moving the distro around a bit to see if it would catch, no love. Put it back at zero. Any ideas of what else I should try before I buy an ECM?
D.
[This message has been edited by damittron (edited 02-09-2019).]
Sorry... I missed this, for a while. Looking at the sensor readings, I don't see anything that looks wrong. I would not be inclined to worry about the timing showing 0.0. Once the engine starts, the ECM should add timing advance to the base timing. I believe that all it will report is the added timing advance. NOT the base timing. I could be wrong on that point, however. (It has to assume the correct setting for the base timing, but I don't know if it accounts for it in the reading or not.)
The fact that it ran for ten seconds would seem to indicate that it's running on more than the "prime shot" supplied by the cold start injector. Odd that it stalled after running that long. I'm still concerned about the "having to hold the pedal to the floor" to get it to start (if that's still happening.) Still indicates too much fuel.
Edit - I wonder if the cold start injector is stuck open...
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-10-2019).]
I'm still concerned about the "having to hold the pedal to the floor" to get it to start (if that's still happening.) Still indicates too much fuel.
agreed. Injectors are most likely stuck open or full of chunks from the fuel tank cleaning. Its a common problem for cars that have been stored a long time.
agreed. Injectors are most likely stuck open or full of chunks from the fuel tank cleaning. Its a common problem for cars that have been stored a long time.
I edited my post. I wonder if the cold start injector could be stuck open.
agreed. Injectors are most likely stuck open or full of chunks from the fuel tank cleaning. Its a common problem for cars that have been stored a long time.
Injectors have been replaced. I purchased a set, tested, cleaned and replaced o-rings and pintel caps on them.
I edited my post. I wonder if the cold start injector could be stuck open.
I suppose this is a possibility, and it makes sense to test it before I do anything else. I didn't do anyting with it except replace the o-ring to the fuel rail on it.
Injectors have been replaced. I purchased a set, tested, cleaned and replaced o-rings and pintel caps on them.
You may want to check them with a fuel pressure test. There is a slim chance that additional junk has floated into the injectors and is holding them open after the fuel pump is turned off. They should hold 40 lbs. for a few minutes.
You may want to check them with a fuel pressure test. There is a slim chance that additional junk has floated into the injectors and is holding them open after the fuel pump is turned off. They should hold 40 lbs. for a few minutes.
I checked them about 2 weeks back, the pressure is about 42-44 PSI and holds forever. I put the fuel pressure guage on, turned it on, it hit 42 or so, then I went to lunch. When I came back about an half hour later, it was at around 36 PSI. I also have replaced the fuel filter twice now, just to make sure I am running on clean fuel.
[This message has been edited by damittron (edited 02-10-2019).]
Also - last weekend I started to worry about the gas getting old, it had been in there about 3 months. I drained the tank via the ALDL jump to run the fuel pump and added 5 gallons of new gas. Currently in Florida, the 87 octane is "less than 10% ethanol", so I used that.
It's not hard to put the distributor assembly in 180 degrees out of phase. All I can think of. Unless you tore the engine down and did not get the timing chain marks lined up right on reassembly. Good luck, I know how frustrating this can be.
It's not hard to put the distributor assembly in 180 degrees out of phase. All I can think of. Unless you tore the engine down and did not get the timing chain marks lined up right on reassembly. Good luck, I know how frustrating this can be.
I found TDC with a TDC whistle, checked against the flywheel slot and it was perfectly on Zero degrees. Stabbed the distro with the rotor pointing at cylinder 1 on the cap. When it still wouldn't start, I tried starting in diagnostic mode as well, still nothing. I took pictures, but I am on a Mac, so can't use the image uploader. I can post googe photos links, so I may do that in a bit.
May be hard to tell, but if you look at the degrees on the indicator, you can see the slot in the flywheel at zero degrees. Just to be clear, this was done using a TDC whistle, it is a whistle that replaces your number 1 spark plug and when the compression builds, it whistles. It stops whistling when you are at TDC.
I checked them about 2 weeks back, the pressure is about 42-44 PSI and holds forever. ...
Okay. Scratch the CS injector being stuck open permanently. That doesn't mean that it's not hanging open when it's activated, however.
I would try unplugging it. (The plug looks very similar to a regular injector plug.) Normally, this would make for slightly longer crank times, but it would certainly not stop the engine from starting. (My 3.4 had the CS injector deleted. Still cranked okay, and ran fine.)
Okay. Scratch the CS injector being stuck open permanently. That doesn't mean that it's not hanging open when it's activated, however.
I would try unplugging it. (The plug looks very similar to a regular injector plug.) Normally, this would make for slightly longer crank times, but it would certainly not stop the engine from starting. (My 3.4 had the CS injector deleted. Still cranked okay, and ran fine.)
Cool. I will give it a try tomorrow. I may go ahead and pull it out just to make sure it is clean and pusling a good stream.
