I've been pondering my options to rebuilding my 2.8L that would pass the People's Republic of California Emission Test and Visual Inspection (like slipping in a 3.4L PR or a 3400 with the Fiero top end). If you can picture Captain Queeg and his ball bearings, staring off into space mumbling 'there's got to be a way...' that would be me right now. The Rules say you can't swap in the 3800SC with a 5spd manual trans b/c GM never offered that option. Has anyone successfully found a way around that road block? I know there are other CARB-legal swaps I could do but this is the one that haunts my dreams ...
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Is it really that hard? Honest question! Would a Monroe crew really be able to tell a fiero wasn't equipped with obd ii? I see my mechanic fishing for connectors without a care for all cars coming through and he IS smart enough to say "hey wait wtf is that engine doing in there?!".
Swap in a 3800na from a Camaro with a 5 speed, get it smogged, then do a top end swap to add the SC. Might have to swap it back for inspections.
Or swap in the 3.9L/F40 from the 2006/2007 G6 GTP.
Camaro wasn't EPA-tested with the Fiero 5-speed. Technically, from what I know of California, you would need to install the Camaro 5-speed + 3800NA combo. The engine and transmission are considered an indivisible block.
3.9/F40 is agood idea, otherwise, if OP wants a 3800SC, then the 3800SC + its automashit would be compliant for smog testing, then swap transmissions for driving around.
What I am fishing for here is members who have successfully gotten the 5spd version approved by the CARB Referee (or ignored by the smog test station.) I can see getting the auto version through but changing back to the 5 spd every two years seems like a lot of trouble.
I have looked into this extensively.. by the rules of BAR it simply won’t be smog legal in California so i don’t think you will find what you are looking for... not trying to be negative, it’s just how it is here in Cali, totally sucks. Maybe do the swap and find a “friendly” smog tech? ....
Originally posted by Crasian: I have looked into this extensively.. by the rules of BAR it simply won’t be smog legal in California so i don’t think you will find what you are looking for... not trying to be negative, it’s just how it is here in Cali, totally sucks. Maybe do the swap and find a “friendly” smog tech? ....
Did you look at the option of buying the car out of state then bringing it into California? Different rules apply perhaps? Of course that wouldn't help with doing the swap on my current car ...
Rant --- of course it is maddening that the swap would result in proven Better MPG and Less Emissions but the Bureaucracy won't allow it ( ... I'll quote a San Diego ex-mayor here: 'Have you had enough Government yet?'
Didn't West Coast Fieros have some sort of 3800 setup with a manual transmission that would get by CARB? My memory may be faulty but it cannot hurt to ask them. Another potential solution is to apply for one of the special vehicle permits (500 or less issued per year IIRC) if that would allow your desired engine/transmission configuration.
Notorio, Another idea. Can you register your Fiero in Arizona or Nevada? You will need a buddy who lives in one of these states to collaborate your residency in those states. This can be your answer. Or, do you have a buddy in a county close to where you live, that does not require a SMOG certificate every two years? I hate the SMOG nazi Environmental movement😡. It is so stupid! It was first impacted in the mid 70’s when California did not have computers like today. At that time smog smelling machines were cleaned by mechanical means. The beacracy is so rapped into the left leaning politics of California. Cordially, kevin
Kevin: all counties within the state of CA require smog every two years. As for the buddy out of state deal...well there happens to be a law for that too, something along the lines of “if visiting from out of state for a period exceeding 3 months vehicals are required to be registered with the state of CA (excluding military)” that could spell big trouble if he gets caught. Not trying to be a naysayer but the options are really limited to engine swaps in the state.
If we are speaking theoretically and he goes with “buddy out of state” deal he would have to also obtain a drivers license from that state as well as register every year.
Notorio, See the map? For example, the entire county of Impetial does not have any jurisdictional feedback from the Smog Nazi’s. The way I understand the SMOG book, ifyou have a buddy living in that county, simply use that address as your home. The state will undoubtedly ask for your cell phone address, and all your utility bills. All of these should have your name on your ‘new’ address bills. Simply work out an arraignment with this guy to pay all of those individual bills from that address. The state connot know that you do not live at this address. Give me your thoughts on this idea. Cordially, kevin Ps. Will you be running a Getrag or F40 5-speed?
[This message has been edited by kevin (edited 10-29-2018).]
Thanks for pointing out the variability across the state ... I always thought it was the same everywhere! Even San Diego county has some rural 'Change of Ownership Areas' that are relatively close to me. The text of the Rules is not entirely clear to me even for these least-controlled areas:
'These more rural areas of the state require Smog Check certification only when an affected vehicle changes ownership (with the exception of gasoline vehicles four or less model-years old), or is initially registered in California. Vehicles within specified model-years registered in the Change of Ownership Areas are subject to Smog Check only upon change of ownership or initial registration in California. Vehicles registered in this area must receive a TSI (Two Speed Idle) Smog Check.'
The first 2 sentences seem to indicate that I could take my currently registered Fiero to the Jamul 91935 area for example, and since I already own the car no Smog check would be required to register there. However, the 3rd sentence seems to be saying that ANY vehicle in that region would at least require a Two Speed Idle Smog Check. If this was a one-time event I could get the test then happily modify to my heart's content?
I think I will do as suggested and check with West Coast Fieros. They must have answered this question a hundred times ...
p.s. I was thinking to stay with the Getrag and abstain from pursuing power-increasing upgrades that are available for the 3800 SC platform ...
[This message has been edited by Notorio (edited 10-29-2018).]
Notorio, I visited Chris West at his shop. What an amaizing shop. And, what an amaizing guy! He knows his stuff😃. Remarkably, I got a ride in his car. Absolutely amaizing!!!!! His car is driven in California. How he got a turbo Aurrora engine to be driven in Calif. simply means that you need to contact his shop. He will have more decisive answers. Cordially, kevin
Camaro wasn't EPA-tested with the Fiero 5-speed. Technically, from what I know of California, you would need to install the Camaro 5-speed + 3800NA combo. The engine and transmission are considered an indivisible block.
Not exactly: California emissions has nothing to do with the transmission it self. (at least not sense the last time I talked to a Referee) it is the emissions related electronics and sensors within the transmission that provide necessary parameters for the ECM to run smog equipment along with the engine and fuel vapor system. So if a manual transmission was paired with the engine and it has no emissions related electronics or equipment in it, you could use any transmission with that engine. BUT, in the case of automatic transmissions, the engine control equipment requires input from the transmission to run the engine properly. So technically the automatic transmission has smog related electronics and equipment that are just as vital as a catalytic converter, for an emissions compliant engine transplant. So simply put, most manual transmissions have no emissions related inputs for the ECM. But all automatic transmissions have ECM related equipment. In California, you can't transplant an older engine than the car, so all automatic transmissions from 84 and up have required emissions equipment within them, so you can't just swap in and older transmission and do electronic voodoo to the ECM. BTW, any computer reflashing or "chip" is also not legal,...unless it is previously approved by CARB.
quote
3.9/F40 is agood idea, otherwise, if OP wants a 3800SC, then the 3800SC + its automashit would be compliant for smog testing, then swap transmissions for driving around.
This may also not be entirely true. The bottom line is that the Smog Referee has the final say on the matter and they very from person to person (the last time I know of, California only had 12 smog Referee for the entire State), they use discriminatory decision-making processes. So one Referee may let a small detail pass, but another may not. In my case, I swapped an LS4 into my 88GT and I was required to also install the Body Control Module, Transmission Control Module and have a GM dealer reflash ALL of them with the same VIN number. To swap back and forth every 2 years from a smog legal automatic to a manual would be a HUGE PAIN in the...
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-30-2018).]
Notorio, I visited Chris West at his shop. What an amaizing shop. And, what an amaizing guy! He knows his stuff😃. Remarkably, I got a ride in his car. Absolutely amaizing!!!!! His car is driven in California. How he got a turbo Aurrora engine to be driven in Calif. simply means that you need to contact his shop. He will have more decisive answers. Cordially, kevin
California has a program called sb500 (or something like that) to allow a few cars every to be labeled as a specialty Construction and basically no emissions. But it is limited to a small number of cars, a lottery system and may have some requirements? West may have one of those sb500 certificates to register his turbo, otherwise it would be impossible.
California has a program called sb500 (or something like that) to allow a few cars every to be labeled as a specialty Construction and basically no emissions. But it is limited to a small number of cars, a lottery system and may have some requirements? West may have one of those sb500 certificates to register his turbo, otherwise it would be impossible.
You are correct. Curley has this certificate for his silver choptop and just like the name, they only issue 500 per year. This is really the only way to completely customize the drive train and get away with it.
You are correct. Curley has this certificate for his silver choptop and just like the name, they only issue 500 per year. This is really the only way to completely customize the drive train and get away with it.
Yes he does. BTW I have driven his Silver Chop Top. And he has driven my 3.5 Short Star, before I took it out and did the LS4 swap. We were trying out each others power steering. He has a Mercure system and I have an "F" Body system.
OK, so it took a few searches to figure out that 'Curley' is MadCurl. I just sent him a PM asking for him to join the thread and explain things. Here are a couple of quotes from DMV on the Specially Constructed Vehicle Certs, of which there are 500 per year:
A "home-made, specially constructed, or kit vehicle" is a vehicle that is built for private use, not for resale, and is not constructed by a licensed manufacturer or remanufacturer. These vehicles may be built from a kit, new or used parts, a combination of new and used parts, or a vehicle reported for dismantling (junked) that, when reconstructed, does not resemble the original make of the vehicle that was dismantled.
Example: A Volkswagen "Beetle" with modified fenders, engine compartment lid, and front end, but still recognizable as a Volkswagen is not considered a specially constructed vehicle."
I actually looked at this a few years ago and it seems plain enough that my engine swap would still ''look like a Fiero.'' Hopefully MadCurl can straighten this out.
And forgot to mention 'work' prevented me from calling up WCF today but tomorrow's schedule looks much better. BTW, much thanks to all for your interest!
Example: A Volkswagen "Beetle" with modified fenders, engine compartment lid, and front end, but still recognizable as a Volkswagen is not considered a specially constructed vehicle."[/i]
Right, those are body mods. Stick a different motor in the car and it's a different story.
By the way, you probably won't hear from Curley in this thread. He is long gone from this forum but he may reply to your PM.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 10-30-2018).]
Right, those are body mods. Stick a different motor in the car and it's a different story.
Yes and no. There is a big grey area on judging how similar a car remains after modifications. It boils down the the person who judges your car and issues a certification. That judgment will very from person to person.
First things first, I must extend my hearty thanks to Chris West at West Coast Fieros for taking the time today to walk me through my many options, none of which included a 3800SC hooked to my 5spd. Well, that's not quite true, as has been already suggested, but Chris was able to explain the right way to do it that works with DMV. Arrange to set up a post office box as a 'suite' in a County that does't require smog testing (e.g. Imperial County.) This then establishes that building's physical address as a legitimate location to use for registering any vehicle of mine. The business will charge something for this service which would also include forwarding one's mail (from the DMV) to your house so it would be an on-going cost to consider. With the Suite address in hand, one would simply complete a Change of Address form on DMV's web page. Not a bad option really!
He said trying to get one of the 500 Special Vehicle permits became much more difficult about 8 years ago so that it is essentially impossible to do today. Instead of either approach Chris suggested that I really consider one of the other many engines that are allowed to be coupled to a Manual transmission in California, for example, the LS4. Of course the price of passing the Referee and getting a 'sticker' is transferring over the entire pollution control set up, etc. Also, the LS4 swap threads I have looked at seem much more involved with fabrication, which I have no facilities for. Bolt in is about the best I can manage here.
Chris, if you happen to read this you already have my thanks from earlier today but now let me offer my apologies for screwing up the many details you shared with me
First things first, I must extend my hearty thanks to Chris West at West Coast Fieros for taking the time today to walk me through my many options, none of which included a 3800SC hooked to my 5spd. Well, that's not quite true, as has been already suggested, but Chris was able to explain the right way to do it that works with DMV. Arrange to set up a post office box as a 'suite' in a County that does't require smog testing (e.g. Imperial County.) This then establishes that building's physical address as a legitimate location to use for registering any vehicle of mine. The business will charge something for this service which would also include forwarding one's mail (from the DMV) to your house so it would be an on-going cost to consider. With the Suite address in hand, one would simply complete a Change of Address form on DMV's web page. Not a bad option really!
He said trying to get one of the 500 Special Vehicle permits became much more difficult about 8 years ago so that it is essentially impossible to do today. Instead of either approach Chris suggested that I really consider one of the other many engines that are allowed to be coupled to a Manual transmission in California, for example, the LS4. Of course the price of passing the Referee and getting a 'sticker' is transferring over the entire pollution control set up, etc. Also, the LS4 swap threads I have looked at seem much more involved with fabrication, which I have no facilities for. Bolt in is about the best I can manage here.
Chris, if you happen to read this you already have my thanks from earlier today but now let me offer my apologies for screwing up the many details you shared with me
I think you misunderstood him, the LS4 never had a manual transmission from the factory and for that reason will never be a legal engine swap in California. Maybe he said LS1? but for sure the LS4 is automatic only.
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I think you misunderstood him, the LS4 never had a manual transmission from the factory and for that reason will never be a legal engine swap in California. Maybe he said LS1? but for sure the LS4 is automatic only.
How right you are: I can only find auto cars with the LS4. This must have been when he suggested giving up on the manual and converting to an auto during the swap or keeping the 5 spd and using the Postal Suite plan. I'm tookishly determined to keep the manual (no matter how much I complain about California freeway traffic jams ...)
Does anyone have a good resource list of Engines and Trans combinations that were sold? I seem to only be able to find engine listings, like this Wikipedia link ...
How right you are: I can only find auto cars with the LS4. This must have been when he suggested giving up on the manual and converting to an auto during the swap or keeping the 5 spd and using the Postal Suite plan. I'm tookishly determined to keep the manual (no matter how much I complain about California freeway traffic jams ...)
Does anyone have a good resource list of Engines and Trans combinations that were sold? I seem to only be able to find engine listings, like this Wikipedia link ...
The LS4 is the only LS that never had a manual. I also really wanted a manual, but this LS4 has so much power that the auto is acceptable. I would still rather have a manual, but I can live with the way it is right now. I have a 6 speed F40 for the LS4, but will probably never install it. The conversation is a hassle and the gear ratios suckered (from what others have said). Chris West uses the NSX 6 speed manual transmission. I am sure it is a good unit, but I just don't want to go through all that right now. If you want a manual, you could use any LS other than the LS4.
On a side note, GM had a manual version of the LS4 at an auto show in LA 10 or so years ago. They just never put that car engine transmission combo into production.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 11-02-2018).]
I don't know much about California so let me start off by saying that.
Other than the LS4 all other LS engines were longitudinal engines, so all of the manuals that were for them are as well.
To meet CA law, does the manual transmission have to be the same one offered stock in another vehicle, or can you put any manual on, as long as there was a manual option somewhere?
According to Chris it can be any manual it doesn't have to be the 'matched' transmission. I think this is b/c on the automatic the PCM looks for sensor data from the trans and issues commands but for the manual it doesn't so whether it is the same manual or not it doesn't matter to them. I guess this makes some sense after all b/c their goal is to have the engine and trans combination more or less polluting as it was in the donor car. If the PCM is looking for the transmission and its not there it must freak out and set flags that cause the car to fail.
According to Chris it can be any manual it doesn't have to be the 'matched' transmission. I think this is b/c on the automatic the PCM looks for sensor data from the trans and issues commands but for the manual it doesn't so whether it is the same manual or not it doesn't matter to them. I guess this makes some sense after all b/c their goal is to have the engine and trans combination more or less polluting as it was in the donor car. If the PCM is looking for the transmission and its not there it must freak out and set flags that cause the car to fail.
For the most part, this is true. Keep in mind that some speed sensors in manual transmissions may require some sort of electronic converter so the ECM can read the speed input AND it will most likely need a speed calibration as well. Then there are the odd manual transmissions that require lock outs and other computer sensors and controles. So not all transmissions will work. As far as emissions controls go, IF the transmission came from the factory with such related electronics, manual or automatic,..they will be required for the engine transplant certificate. For example, my LS2 GTO has a manual transmission, this transmission came with a "skip shift" mechanism. By the letter of the law, a smog Reff could fail the certification if the new transmission does not have the skip shift. So to swap a 2006 GTO manual engine in a Fiero, you would need to find a transverse transmission with skip shift, which does not exist. So legally the swap can not be done in California. BUT, fortunately the Reff won't be that hard on us.
First things first, I must extend my hearty thanks to Chris West at West Coast Fieros for taking the time today to walk me through my many options, none of which included a 3800SC hooked to my 5spd. Well, that's not quite true, as has been already suggested, but Chris was able to explain the right way to do it that works with DMV. Arrange to set up a post office box as a 'suite' in a County that does't require smog testing (e.g. Imperial County.) This then establishes that building's physical address as a legitimate location to use for registering any vehicle of mine. The business will charge something for this service which would also include forwarding one's mail (from the DMV) to your house so it would be an on-going cost to consider. With the Suite address in hand, one would simply complete a Change of Address form on DMV's web page. Not a bad option really!
He said trying to get one of the 500 Special Vehicle permits became much more difficult about 8 years ago so that it is essentially impossible to do today. Instead of either approach Chris suggested that I really consider one of the other many engines that are allowed to be coupled to a Manual transmission in California, for example, the LS4. Of course the price of passing the Referee and getting a 'sticker' is transferring over the entire pollution control set up, etc. Also, the LS4 swap threads I have looked at seem much more involved with fabrication, which I have no facilities for. Bolt in is about the best I can manage here.
Chris, if you happen to read this you already have my thanks from earlier today but now let me offer my apologies for screwing up the many details you shared with me
It's not necessary to have the mail from the DMV forwarded to your address. If you know the month that your registration expires, you can go on-line and do the registration there. No paper work is required. Actually, you could probably discontinue the service altogether, as long as you stayed current with paying the registration fees.
It's not necessary to have the mail from the DMV forwarded to your address. If you know the month that your registration expires, you can go on-line and do the registration there. No paper work is required. Actually, you could probably discontinue the service altogether, as long as you stayed current with paying the registration fees.
The more I thought about this, I realized that it would be necessary to keep the service because otherwise there would be no way to get the new registration and sticker after paying the DMV on-line.
Originally posted by jimsxray: The more I thought about this, I realized that it would be necessary to keep the service because otherwise there would be no way to get the new registration and sticker after paying the DMV on-line.
Yes, I don't see how I could avoid this. When I'm out today I'll stop at the post office and find out how much this would cost. At this point I don't know if it's $5 or $25 or more per month.
Originally posted by OntarioKev: You guys have some strange laws in California Glad I don't have to deal with them.
Indeed we do. But in some respects you guys up North have surpassed us. My brother owned a house in Guelph with a beautiful yard, that was until the government clamped down on the use of herbicides. When I visited him 2 yrs later his lawns had been converted into weed-infested shadows of their former selves (as had everyone else's.) Now that I'm thinking about it I guess we're pursuing the same end (government control) via constantly lower water rations. The weeds thrive, the grass dies :/
[This message has been edited by Notorio (edited 11-05-2018).]
Well I've been doing some additional searching having read the LY7 thread that is up now. This lead me to the newer Direct Injection LLT engine offered in the Gen 5 Camaro (2009-2015) ...
Quoting from Wikipedia:
quote
It was made available as a coupe in five different trim levels; the LS, 1LT, 2LT, 1SS, and 2SS. The LS and LT trim levels are powered by the 3.6 L (3,564 cc or 217 cu in) GM LLT V6 producing 312 hp (233 kW) at 6,400 rpm and 273 lbf⋅ft (370 N⋅m) at 5,200 rpm
Looking several sales listings the LS and LT were sold with a MANUAL transmission
Looking on Car-Part.com they are, however, quite pricey. As an example, there is one in Arizona for sale right now for $2500 with 30K miles but that doesn't include shipping or all the smog-necessary equipage.
p.s. Edited to add now that I've read the 'High Feature v6' posting here, you don't need to tell me how complex this would be. I can see for myself this would be WAY over my head.
[This message has been edited by Notorio (edited 12-08-2018).]
Well I've been doing some additional searching having read the LY7 thread that is up now. This lead me to the newer Direct Injection LLT engine offered in the Gen 5 Camaro (2009-2015) ...
Quoting from Wikipedia:
Looking several sales listings the LS and LT were sold with a MANUAL transmission
Looking on Car-Part.com they are, however, quite pricey. As an example, there is one in Arizona for sale right now for $2500 with 30K miles but that doesn't include shipping or all the smog-necessary equipage.
p.s. Edited to add now that I've read the 'High Feature v6' posting here, you don't need to tell me how complex this would be. I can see for myself this would be WAY over my head.
My advice for the newer more complex engine swaps is to buy the entire donor car,..IF you want the swap to be smog legal in Ca. For starters, you will need the matching VIN number for the engine and drive train. They do check to verify that it is not stolen. Then the Reff will most likely want all of the related computers to also have the VIN number match the donor car. It will not matter if it is manual or automatic, you may still need to have more than just the Engine Control Module. Being a manual transmission does not necessarily mean the swap is easier or faster to complete. Mixing and matching different donor car parts can make the swap more complex, frustrating and time consuming.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-08-2018).]
Glad I don't have to deal with them.
As an example, there is one in Arizona for sale right now for $2500 with 30K miles but that doesn't include shipping or all the smog-necessary equipage.
