Looks like the administration is allowing E15 to be used a lot more moving forward, IE year round (makes corn farmers happy, the tariffs hurt them apparently). https://www.marketwatch.com...motorists-2018-10-09 What does it mean to the Duke? To the 6 cylinder? To an engine run by a 7730? I understand that the ethanol is very bad for rubber, thus why your parts on lawn equipment go bad so often. Do we have rubber issues? Hoses connecting tank lines? Parts inside of our injectors? I also hear a rumor that super unleaded does not have ethanol, and it should be bought for lawn care gear.. would that extend to our old cars too?
Mostly what bothers me about Québec fuel is that our regular (87 AKI) isn't E10; it's anywhere from E0 to E10, subject to the whims of the vendor / refinery. Hence the tune cannot be consistent, as the ECU must deal with a moving target. A guaranteed E10 +/- 2% would bother me less. OK, someone is going to chime in and say that due to closed-loop O2 feedback, the ECU can compensate... well I still prefer a fuel with consistency.
On our gas pumps, there is a sticker on the regular and midgrade (89 AKI) warning customers of ethanol content.
The premium here (91 AKI) does not contain ethanol.
Corrosion would be limited to the fuel system, not the actual engine itself, so any corrosion-related problems, if they occur, would be limited in scope and in repair costs.
Nevertheless, to my knowledge, there is no downside (other than cost) to premium fuel, so it's a no-brainer to fill my 2.8 Fiero with 91 AKI E0. If the ethanol isn't that harmful, I'm not hurting anything. If the ethanol is indeed corrosive, I'm preventing potential trouble.
I burn 87 E-whatever in my daily driver, but it's not like my Fiero with uncountable hours of labor in it, so I don't care if it corrodes; I'll change vehicle if that happens.
Ethanol: 1. Bad for portions of the fuel system, such as filters, injectors, and rubber components 2. Does get into the combustion chamber 3. Is bad for fuel economy 4. Is bad for engine power 5. Makes the engine run hotter 6. Shortens engine life 7. Costs more, so bad for your wallet 8. Causes your fuel to go bad more quickly 9. Increases maintenance costs 10. Is often not homogenous, resulting in erratic results 11. Is bad for the emissions system 12. Does not burn clean, so is bad for the environment
For cars that sit for any extended length of time anything with ethanol in it is bad. That’s the same reason why fuel docks for boats contain ethanol free fuel. Ethanol attracts moisture and corrodes metals like aluminum and brass. There is literally no good to come from it as a blended fuel. However on the flip side of that E85 makes a good, cheap race gas for high compression/boosted motors due to its inherent octane rating. Needless to say I’m anti ethanol-blends
Ethanol: 1. Bad for portions of the fuel system, such as filters, injectors, and rubber components 2. Does get into the combustion chamber 3. Is bad for fuel economy 4. Is bad for engine power 5. Makes the engine run hotter 6. Shortens engine life 7. Costs more, so bad for your wallet 8. Causes your fuel to go bad more quickly 9. Increases maintenance costs 10. Is often not homogenous, resulting in erratic results 11. Is bad for the emissions system 12. Does not burn clean, so is bad for the environment
Where is the good part?
I don’t know about everything on the list but what I do know is that I could run both in my Avalanche (0-10%) or a 91 enthanol free. The truck ran better mileage ethanol free and my app for tracking typically shown a better cost ratio or even with the 91 stuff. As stated above who know what was actually in it he 0-10%. My understanding the winter months we the high percent and I think that is what I here on the commercials. Bio diesel seems like a better option to me than corn. If I burn more fuel then how can the environment benefit if that is the supposed goal. No offense to farmers but I think the government started all this to prop the farmers and fed us a line of crap, how is that for off topic. Ethanol free is hard to come find, I had an app called pure gas to find it. I always drove west to Kansas and the wind always played a hugh change in mileage.
[This message has been edited by LornesGT (edited 10-13-2018).]
typically shown a better cost ratio or even with the 91 stuff.
Higher octane doesn't = better gas mileage unless you have a high enough compression car that your getting knock, ignition retardation running a lower octane. This is one of the most frustrating misconceptions about octane.
But yes, ethanol-blended fuels are less efficient and are harder on some materials. The worst characteristic by far though is that the ethanol is hygroscopic. it attracts water and when enough water is absorbed, it separates from the fuel giving you a water-ethanol mix at the bottom and gas on top.
A gas station near me was replacing its tanks. I was hoping for E85 for my future turbo build. To my surprise, they added ethanol free. Unless I do the math and it's cheaper to go ethanol free per mile, I will stick with regular except in all my lawn equipment and any cars that are being stored.
Fortunate to live in a waterfront area where ethanol free is fairly easy to get.
Learned my lesson about 10 years ago when I stored my boat with E10 and Sta-Bil. Didn't work AT ALL. One year old motor needed a complete fuel pump rebuild.
Now I use 90 octane ethanol free in everything I own, from lawn mowers to Fieros. Unless I'm going on a long trip where I know I'll burn all the E10 and then the last tank coming home I go back to the ethanol free stuff.
I will say that I haven't seen any difference in mileage though.
Originally posted by pmbrunelle: Corrosion would be limited to the fuel system, not the actual engine itself, so any corrosion-related problems, if they occur, would be limited in scope and in repair costs.
Nope. Corrosion and rubber/plastic problems can happen to the engine's "fuel rail" and lines to it. Many GM MFI have coils directly cooled by fuel and over limit ethanol methanol and even FI cleaners can ruin injectors, eat any rubber, etc. 700 series TBI used on 87+ DIS Dukes can handle >10% Ethanol but rest of fuel system isn't rated for >10%. Many others including recent/current models hate >10% and why most car markers fight 15% under Obama. Even now GM and most others can/will void your warranty on new cars not made as "Flex Fuel" vehicles for higher % ethanol use.
Engines not made to handle >10% either can wear out faster too. Expect to change oil more often because any blowby with >10% will weaken oil.
That's before most none Flex Fuel ECM/PCM aren't program to handle >10% Ethanol and even if doesn't set "codes" the engine doesn't perform right.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
E10 eats rubber, E15 will eat it faster. It also causes metal corrosion faster than straight gas. Also you get less power, meaning less mpg with ethanol. Don't use E15 in your Fiero.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-10-2018).]
Ethanol isn't ALL bad. It DOES have a few benefits. Remember that fuel dryer stuff you can get at your local auto parts store...? It's ethanol. If you run E10 all the time, you won't have any water in your fuel. As for it being more expensive... I'm not sure. Ethanol-free fuel is usually significantly more expensive around here. Not sure if that's a supply & demand kind of thing, or what. Also not sure about the not clean burning thing. When I used to live just outside Atlanta, my Formula had to pass emissions every year. And unless something was wrong, it did.
It IS harder on rubber parts, though, and it goes bad MUCH faster. I use. It has less energy per volume, so your fuel system has to deliver more fuel. At some point (E15, E20, E30... I don't know), a fuel system designed for E0 won't be able to deliver enough fuel. Or maybe the injectors are big enough, but the ECM can't compensate enough. And maybe this happens only at full throttle. Again, I don't really know.
As for higher octane delivering better mileage... only if the engine has a knock sensor. A fuel system that can advance timing to just short of knocking will deliver better power and mileage with high octane fuel. An engine like the stock 2.8 in my Formula... will not see any difference.
As for it being more expensive... I'm not sure. Ethanol-free fuel is usually significantly more expensive around here. Not sure if that's a supply & demand kind of thing, or what. .
Its because corn gas is subsidized by our taxes.
"The ethanol subsidy, which is commonly referred to as the "blender's credit," offers ethanol blenders registered with the Internal Revenue Service a tax credit of 45 cents for every gallon of pure ethanol they blend with gasoline.
That particular ethanol subsidy cost taxpayers $5.7 billion in foregone revenues in 2011, according to the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the nonpartisan congressional watchdog agency.
The initial bill gave ethanol blenders a tax credit of 51 cents for every gallon of ethanol they mixed with gasoline. Congress reduced the tax incentive by 6 cents per gallon as part of the 2008 Farm Bill."
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-10-2018).]
I will say that I haven't seen any difference in mileage though.
I tested mpgs in a 1998 Saturn SL1 5 speed, on a long road trip at an average of 60 mph and it got 38 mpg with E10 and 43 with straight gas. Both 87 octane.
Originally posted by Formula Owner: Ethanol isn't ALL bad. It DOES have a few benefits. Remember that fuel dryer stuff you can get at your local auto parts store...? It's ethanol.
Nope. Most "Dry Gas" formulas are Isopropyl or Methanol not Ethanol and been so for 50+ years. Examples: Gold Eagle Heet sds (pdf) 100% Methanol Gold Eagle Iso-Heet sds (pdf) 98.5% Isopropyl alcohol 12oz bottle treats 10gal to 20gal of gas. mix is < 1% Heet to 10+ Gal of gas. Most cars allow 5% methanol. Other brands are close to same thing and often have small amounts of other solvents/chemical but not Ethanol.
Ethanol will drop out of solution if you have water in the tank. Including water let in with air as moisture then condense on tank walls. Worse if you have bad gas cap or other leak problems even if doesn't leak liquid fuel on the floor/ground.
Originally posted by 2.5: Does anyone know if this stuff actually does anything?
Such as to counter act the negative effects of ethanol...if not, does anything else?
I'm guessing these can only help with storage of gas. I would never store E10 gas.
I don't believe they work much better then changing/using Egas very often. May help to save rubber parts but I don't believe hype by Stabil et al either. Even with them Egas can "spoil" from water like if you have vented/loose/bad gas caps on lawn motors, gas cans, etc, for same problem as above. Many remove Fiero's EVAP canister doesn't help to prevent water getting in the tank.
around here (FLA) the ethenol fuel Lasts about 2 months, then separates ! the fuel becomes CLOUDY and the engines stop Running and must be completely drained ! this has happened to me a few times. the cars, mowers etc that I have I always store Almost EMPTY, because within 5-6 weeks the fuel is garbage. pay the farmers- More $$, less fuel economy> pay the oil companies more $$, ruin parts, pay the parts suppliers- more $$. anyone see a "PLOT" here ??? LOL
Higher octane doesn't = better gas mileage unless you have a high enough compression car that your getting knock, ignition retardation running a lower octane. This is one of the most frustrating misconceptions about octane.
But yes, ethanol-blended fuels are less efficient and are harder on some materials. The worst characteristic by far though is that the ethanol is hygroscopic. it attracts water and when enough water is absorbed, it separates from the fuel giving you a water-ethanol mix at the bottom and gas on top.
A gas station near me was replacing its tanks. I was hoping for E85 for my future turbo build. To my surprise, they added ethanol free. Unless I do the math and it's cheaper to go ethanol free per mile, I will stick with regular except in all my lawn equipment and any cars that are being stored.
The 91 stuff was entahnol free and yes mileage was better.
The USA is now the largest oil producer in the world and it is now 86% self sufficient on that energy. Canada produces more oil than then it consumes so they are 100% self sufficient on petroleum products. The question then becomes why is Ethanol gasoline necessary?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The USA is now the largest oil producer in the world and it is now 86% self sufficient on that energy. Canada produces more oil than then it consumes so they are 100% self sufficient on petroleum products. The question then becomes why is Ethanol gasoline necessary?
...what is funny about this is that Canada exports a good portion of it's oil (from Western Canada) and then turns around and imports oil from Venezuela and the Middle East into its Eastern provinces.
Just how FUBAR is that? Heaven forbid that we build a pipeline east and supply eastern Canada as well.
That being said, after having issues with ethanol in gas in many of my small engines, I now run everything that uses gasoline ethanol free.
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 10-11-2018).]
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The USA is now the largest oil producer in the world and it is now 86% self sufficient on that energy. Canada produces more oil than then it consumes so they are 100% self sufficient on petroleum products. The question then becomes why is Ethanol gasoline necessary?
Huge part is Because EPA requires it as part of "Reformulated Gasoline" et al when EPA "banned" MTBE in the US under Obama. If an area like most of NJ requires RFG as part of EPA's Clean Air or State "EPA" regulations then you will have a hard time getting any gas at local stations without Ethanol. Do Not trust any station claiming "No Ethanol" because Fuel Mixing is done at the Distributor for the area covered and stations have No choice. Note that many Pumps are labeled as "Contains up to 10% Ethanol" because gas formulas changes for Summer and Winter in the Spring and Fall every year and uses more or less Ethanol for the season. Even pumps labeled "Contains 10% Ethanol" are often not true for this reason.
Areas covered under RFG see https://www.epa.gov/gasolin...eformulated-gasoline Most Opt-in/out areas have RFG because of State "EPA" regulations. "EPA" is quoted sometimes here because States have different names for same job like New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection. (aka NJDEP) NYC has DEP but NY State calls it "Department of Environmental Conservation" aka NYSDEC.
If your don't believe that ethanol has harmful effects, just visit any auto parts store. You will see an entire wall/shelf of products claiming to combat the "ill effects" of ethanol. Another place to look is any owner's manual of motorcycles, lawn mowers, chainsaws, etc. You will read the manufacturers' recommendations NOT to use ethanol. Also, I'm glad the OGRE pointed out that gas-line anti-freeze is NOT ethanol, but isopropyl alcohol. The John Stossel video highlights that the only reason we have mandated ethanol is for political reasons (monetary contributions), not for functional reasons. I live in the corn belt, but I have seen the pendulum swinging back against ethanol at several gas stations, which never offered non-ethanol gas before, but ARE now.
For my summer only, weekend driver, I use ethanol free gas because there is a station close to my house. So, I figure why risk issues, however remote?
That said, I don't believe all the bologna on this thread and others that ethanol goes bad in weeks or harms the car in weeks or even months. I'm sure that, for a car that sits without being driven for YEARS, it will become an issue before ethanol-free gas, but that assumes all other things being equal. In the real world, just how much of an issue is probably going to have to do more with about 1001 other factors like weather, overall quality of the gas, condition of the car's components, the type of components a particular manufacturer used, etc.
Hell, even ethanol free gas is going to become a problem if it sits in the car long enough . . .
It doesn’t take too long to figure out the bad effects of ethanol fuel after the fourth or fifth time you open a carburetor to rebuild it and it looks like it has been sitting at the bottom of an ocean....they were only sitting for four months. There is a simple reason why fuel docks and marine fuel suppliers do not use ethanol in fuel, it’s shelf life and corrosion/deterioration.
Think about it it’s not for the consumers it’s for the business in question. They don’t have as fast a turnaround on the fuel as a gas station. Add to that the environment the tanks sit at with the cost they would pay in wasted fuel, new hardware, environmental fees and permits that would have to be applied for annually to take care of those issues it would quickly put them out of business.
You should have seen the inside of my one year old outboard motor fuel pump after mistakenly storing it for 12 weeks with E10 in it.
Looked like caramel sauce inside and smelled like an old sneaker.
Learned an expensive lesson that day.
Do your fuel docks pump E-10? And you are not alone I see plenty of seasonal boaters trying to save a buck come in and need the carbs and pumps rebuilt because they used E-10....literally dozens every year in the spring
That said, I don't believe all the bologna on this thread and others that ethanol goes bad in weeks or harms the car in weeks or even months. I'm sure that, for a car that sits without being driven for YEARS, it will become an issue ... . . .
I didn't notie anyone say weeks, but leaving E10 in a lawnmower, snowmobile, snow blower, etc over the off season will show one how quickly it goes bad.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Formula Owner: Ethanol isn't ALL bad. It DOES have a few benefits. Remember that fuel dryer stuff you can get at your local auto parts store...? It's ethanol.
Nope. Most "Dry Gas" formulas are Isopropyl or Methanol not Ethanol and been so for 50+ years. Examples: Gold Eagle Heet sds (pdf) 100% Methanol Gold Eagle Iso-Heet sds (pdf) 98.5% Isopropyl alcohol 12oz bottle treats 10gal to 20gal of gas. mix is < 1% Heet to 10+ Gal of gas. Most cars allow 5% methanol. Other brands are close to same thing and often have small amounts of other solvents/chemical but not Ethanol.
Ethanol will drop out of solution if you have water in the tank. Including water let in with air as moisture then condense on tank walls. Worse if you have bad gas cap or other leak problems even if doesn't leak liquid fuel on the floor/ground.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The USA is now the largest oil producer in the world and it is now 86% self sufficient on that energy. Canada produces more oil than then it consumes so they are 100% self sufficient on petroleum products. The question then becomes why is Ethanol gasoline necessary?
Huge part is Because EPA requires it as part of "Reformulated Gasoline" et al when EPA "banned" MTBE in the US under Obama. If an area like most of NJ requires RFG as part of EPA's Clean Air or State "EPA" regulations then you will have a hard time getting any gas at local stations without Ethanol. Do Not trust any station claiming "No Ethanol" because Fuel Mixing is done at the Distributor for the area covered and stations have No choice. Note that many Pumps are labeled as "Contains up to 10% Ethanol" because gas formulas changes for Summer and Winter in the Spring and Fall every year and uses more or less Ethanol for the season. Even pumps labeled "Contains 10% Ethanol" are often not true for this reason.
Areas covered under RFG see https://www.epa.gov/gasolin...eformulated-gasoline Most Opt-in/out areas have RFG because of State "EPA" regulations. "EPA" is quoted sometimes here because States have different names for same job like New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection. (aka NJDEP) NYC has DEP but NY State calls it "Department of Environmental Conservation" aka NYSDEC.[/QUOTE]
I filled up today, and decided to see what I could fanangle out of the register girl. I asked her if the super grade also had Ethanol.. the smart girl went in the back, found the paperwork from the supplier and showed it to me. The super grade was marked as 9% ethanol. I am in western PA. So much for getting around it!
Do your fuel docks pump E-10? And you are not alone I see plenty of seasonal boaters trying to save a buck come in and need the carbs and pumps rebuilt because they used E-10....literally dozens every year in the spring
I have a 16' center console on a lift at my own dock so I just go to the local gas station and fill up the fuel cans there. so I can't say if the fuel dock even offers E-10.
FWIW, ethanol free 90 octane runs about 50 cents more a gallon there but at the fuel dock it's a dollar more, captured market and all.
I filled up today, and decided to see what I could fanangle out of the register girl. I asked her if the super grade also had Ethanol.. the smart girl went in the back, found the paperwork from the supplier and showed it to me. The super grade was marked as 9% ethanol. I am in western PA. So much for getting around it!
Around here if it doesn't specifically say no ethanol, (and cost more per gallon). You have to assume its E10. E85 pumps are labelled E85. Now there are these E15 pumps which are "88 octane" but do also say E15. So apparently somehow the 5% more ethanol possibly gives it another "octane" level?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-17-2018).]
I have a 16' center console on a lift at my own dock so I just go to the local gas station and fill up the fuel cans there. so I can't say if the fuel dock even offers E-10.
FWIW, ethanol free 90 octane runs about 50 cents more a gallon there but at the fuel dock it's a dollar more, captured market and all.
Oh I gotcha now. Good to know you found a place to get you some E-free fuel! I only have the fuel docks and one actuall pump station (which where I am is the more expensive of the two).
Around here if it doesn't specifically say no ethanol, (and cost more per gallon). You have to assume its E10. E85 pumps are labelled E85. Now there are these E15 pumps which are "88 octane" but do also say E15. So apparently somehow the 5% more ethanol possibly gives it another "octane" level?
It’s possible....I’m not exactly a math wizard but by adding 5% more it could bump it up. Considering that E-85 is truly a high octane fuel. however I don’t know how to calculate those ratios properly.
"Ethanol and biobutanol are alcohol fuels derived from fermenting corn. But biobutanol is not corrosive like ethanol and behaves more like conventional gasoline. That means cars, boats and other machines that require gasoline can use it at high levels without experiencing problems. "
Looks like they are being forced to double the amount of "renewable fuels" they blend by 2022.
"The RFS program is dominated by corn ethanol, which comprises about 15 billion gallons of the renewable fuel refiners must blend annually. The remaining portion of the total 36 billion gallons that refiners must blend by 2022 will have to come from more advanced fuels such as biobutanol. More advanced fuels are just starting to be produced, but at relatively low levels. "
