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Big brake Booster and M/C upgrade - What parts exactly? by SP1200
Started on: 04-26-2018 05:45 PM
Replies: 25 (1227 views)
Last post by: wftb on 01-31-2020 02:20 PM
SP1200
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Report this Post04-26-2018 05:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SP1200Send a Private Message to SP1200Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I hear "early model 90s" big booster and MC form the S10 works good on the Fiero, but exactly what year?
Is there any options out there that doesn't require smashing the fiero inner fender wall?
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Report this Post04-26-2018 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you installing bigger calipers? If not, then a bigger master cylinder will actually reduce braking power.

The S10 booster will increase braking power, but requires "percussive adjustment" of the sheet metal.
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Report this Post04-26-2018 06:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

"percussive adjustment"


LOL, I like it!

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SP1200
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Report this Post04-26-2018 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SP1200Send a Private Message to SP1200Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:
Are you installing bigger calipers? If not, then a bigger master cylinder will actually reduce braking power.
The S10 booster will increase braking power, but requires "percussive adjustment" of the sheet metal.


Wouldn't installing a bigger M/C decrease the amount of brake pedal travel and increase response? Maybe I'll try just the boster first.

I installed Bretta Calipers & Rotors on the Front about a decade ago. Not sure if the are large than the OEM pre-88 Fiero.

I'm just really tired of almost crashing when I change form my daily BMW driver and take the Fireo out for a drive. The difference is like night and day. I almost rear ended someone today while driving through a yellow light. The car in front of me decided to stop suddenly. I'm know comparing the Fiero to a BMW is not fair, but I'd like to make it as close as possible.


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olejoedad
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Report this Post04-26-2018 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Have you fixed the mismatch in caliper piston size yet?
That is your primary problem, it must be fixed before you do anything else to your brake system.
Members here have (some anyway) given you very good advice to get your brake system back to good performance, you should heed their advice.
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Report this Post04-26-2018 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SP1200: Wouldn't installing a bigger M/C decrease the amount of brake pedal travel and increase response?

It will reduce pedal travel, at the expense of increased pedal effort.

Since you have Beretta calipers in the front and Fiero calipers in the back, you're in a weird place where you need more fluid volume for the front calipers, but up-sizing the master cylinder will weaken the rear brakes.

That said, a bigger booster can't hurt. It will give you more vacuum assist.
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Report this Post04-26-2018 10:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SP1200:
I'm just really tired of almost crashing when I change form my daily BMW driver and take the Fireo out for a drive. The difference is like night and day. I almost rear ended someone today while driving through a yellow light. The car in front of me decided to stop suddenly. I'm know comparing the Fiero to a BMW is not fair, but I'd like to make it as close as possible.


Just put a bit of muscle into it. Stock Fiero brakes should be able to lock the tires.

Manhandle the Fiero; it's not a fragile iPhone that you touch with your fingertips.

I would suggest returning the front to stock. The others have mentioned this already, but if you hear it from another person, you may believe it more.
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SP1200
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Report this Post04-27-2018 01:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SP1200Send a Private Message to SP1200Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Have you fixed the mismatch in caliper piston size yet?
That is your primary problem, it must be fixed before you do anything else to your brake system.
Members here have (some anyway) given you very good advice to get your brake system back to good performance, you should heed their advice.



Thanks Ole, and I understand what your saying. Someone will give me some advice, I will feel on track...then it will spark a debate and other members will chime in with what they do/dont do...and I feel just overwhelmed. I'm considering manufacturing some lines, and installing a jegs/summit replacement adjustable prop valve.

See thread: //www.fiero.nl/forum/F...134638.html#lastpost

I also wanted to get the part number info on the booster and MC so I can order all the parts.
I think with a jegs prop valve and a good boster, it should give me the results I'm looking for.

[This message has been edited by SP1200 (edited 04-27-2018).]

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SP1200
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Report this Post04-27-2018 01:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SP1200Send a Private Message to SP1200Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

SP1200

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quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

It will reduce pedal travel, at the expense of increased pedal effort.

Since you have Beretta calipers in the front and Fiero calipers in the back, you're in a weird place where you need more fluid volume for the front calipers, but up-sizing the master cylinder will weaken the rear brakes.

That said, a bigger booster can't hurt. It will give you more vacuum assist.


OhhI see. Good explanation. Thanks.
I will just go with he booster for now.
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SP1200
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Report this Post04-27-2018 01:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SP1200Send a Private Message to SP1200Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

SP1200

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quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Just put a bit of muscle into it. Stock Fiero brakes should be able to lock the tires.

Manhandle the Fiero; it's not a fragile iPhone that you touch with your fingertips.

I would suggest returning the front to stock. The others have mentioned this already, but if you hear it from another person, you may believe it more.



Maybe I'd go back to OEM if I can get some decent vented or cross drilled rotors. I remember the brake fade issue was just to much for me back in them old days. Would hate to go back in time.

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Report this Post04-27-2018 08:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SP1200:
Maybe I'd go back to OEM if I can get some decent vented or cross drilled rotors. I remember the brake fade issue was just to much for me back in them old days. Would hate to go back in time.


Stock rotors and calipers, a properly functioning E-brake, and good quality pads will give you good brakes.

Ditch the cheap A/Z pads!
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Report this Post04-27-2018 10:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darbysanSend a Private Message to darbysanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For the booster, I went with one from Summit Racing, Tuff Stuff TFF-2232NB, along with an Adapter from Rodney that was made specifically for this swap. Worked out great, and with buying a new booster, I got a warranty that came in handy about a year later. Makes a huge difference in braking ability vs my previous setup ( 1 foot vs 2 on the brake pedal!!). I have the Grand Am's on the front, and Seville's on the rear, but I tried the booster after the front swap only, and it was a really nice difference. Not much change once I added the rears.

http://rodneydickman.com/ca...h=64&products_id=350
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-2232nb

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Report this Post04-28-2018 01:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
SP1200, check your PM please......
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Report this Post04-28-2018 01:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am happy that someone mentioned quality of parts. Pads and everything else add up to a well thought out system.

My well kept 87GT locks them up with VERY sticky tires. Good pads, braided lines, and vented and drilled rotors. Over 30,000miles and still a ton of pad life left. Going to change out pads here in a few only due to age. I will not buy the least expensive pads.

Just food for thought.
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SP1200
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Report this Post05-01-2018 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SP1200Send a Private Message to SP1200Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Originally I thought I had cheap pads, but remember now. I got them from the Fiero store. My fronts are just fine. They lock up.

If I have to swap out brake parts again. I think I'm gonna go with big rotors to fill the 18 rims I have

[This message has been edited by SP1200 (edited 05-01-2018).]

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Report this Post05-01-2018 09:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you are able to lock up the tires, then what are you complaining about?

At that point, it's your tires that are holding you back from stopping in a shorter distance, not your brakes.
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SP1200
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Report this Post05-01-2018 10:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SP1200Send a Private Message to SP1200Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Foot travel distance to lockup point.
Pressure needed to reach that point.
Rears not locking up at all.
Fronts locking up too much.

Basically like my grandfather's dodge truck.


At this point I think I'm going to return to OEM fronts & rears, and just upgrade the pads and booster.

Thanks for your time everyone.

PS. I still don't have an answer to my OG question of what year S10. So I guess I go with the Tuff Stuff Performance Brake Booster 2232NB

[This message has been edited by SP1200 (edited 05-01-2018).]

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Report this Post05-01-2018 11:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SP1200:
PS. I still don't have an answer to my OG question of what year S10. So I guess I go with the Tuff Stuff Performance Brake Booster 2232NB


The original swap used a 1996 S10 booster. //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/072173.html
Over the years, people have found a wide variety of different year boosters will work, the only significant difference is the design of the banjo rod and they all need some type of modification to fit the Fiero (unless you use Rodney's banjo and the booster he specifies, then they just bolt together).
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SP1200
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Report this Post05-01-2018 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SP1200Send a Private Message to SP1200Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

.. they all need some type of modification to fit the Fiero (unless you use Rodney's banjo and the booster he specifies, then they just bolt together).


Ahh ok so thats why people are going with the Tuff Stuff Performance Brake Booster?

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post05-02-2018 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SP1200:

Foot travel distance to lockup point.
Pressure needed to reach that point.
Rears not locking up at all.
Fronts locking up too much.

Basically like my grandfather's dodge truck.


At this point I think I'm going to return to OEM fronts & rears, and just upgrade the pads and booster.


This plan seems reasonable considering your objectives.

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Report this Post01-28-2020 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

It will reduce pedal travel, at the expense of increased pedal effort.

[b]Since you have Beretta calipers in the front and Fiero calipers in the back, you're in a weird place where you need more fluid volume for the front calipers, but up-sizing the master cylinder wieaken the rear brakes.[/b]
l w
That said, a bigger booster can't hurt. It will give you more vacuum assist.


You need to compensate for that mismatch in volume between the front & back calipers. That is what proportioning valves are for. Some are adjustable, some are not. You need to be careful upsizing the booster unless you have a bigger engine that will make more boost. And hot cams cost you because of valve timing overlap. You can get buy with it if you're not on the brakes all the time.
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Report this Post01-29-2020 12:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Or you could install GrandAm
/Beretta calipers and rotors on the rear and return the balance to the system.

And spend less money that putting stock Fiero parts on the front.
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Report this Post01-30-2020 10:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Meanwhile everyone forgets about the 1982 Corvette MC...

Before I "upgraded" to my super heavy racing wheels, I used to be able to put my head thru the windshield with 255's...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-30-2020).]

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Report this Post01-30-2020 03:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Use this larger brake booster
Larger Brake Booster
Then purchase the brake booster rod end adapter from Rodney Dickman ,reuse the Fiero brake booster bracket to attach and you're in business.
I have read all the comments like this booster won't work right with the stock Fiero brakes but my experience proves otherwise. By just changing to this brake booster the braking action on my 87GT has improved 100% . I just installed one on my 85GT with similar results.


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[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 01-31-2020).]

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Blacktree
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Report this Post01-31-2020 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SP1200:

Foot travel distance to lockup point.
Pressure needed to reach that point.
Rears not locking up at all.
Fronts locking up too much.

The stock brake proportioning valve has a significant front bias. Putting larger bore calipers in front, while keeping stock calipers in back, exaggerates that bias. Also, the larger bore master cylinder can push more fluid through the system, which is good for larger calipers. But it comes at the expense of reduced line pressure, which is bad for the stock calipers. All those things combined create a worst-case scenario for rear brake performance.

There are a couple ways to approach that problem:

1) Tinker with the prop valve (at your own risk), to adjust the brake bias.
2) Install rear calipers that match the front calipers.
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Report this Post01-31-2020 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://youtu.be/t6yoGEkoQmg


Posted by member liv4god (sp?). A very good demonstration of the results using just a booster. If you haven't already seen it.

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